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Thread: Why did the WM3 do it?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by UdbCrzy2 View Post
    No, they found that knife in the water behind Jason Baldwins mobile home.

    There is quite a bit of evidence including their own confessions and Echols mental health history that convicted the three who later plead guilty.
    You know perfectly well it was a public lake and not some place private to Baldwin. And there was no way to connect that knife to the crime.

    All this focus on Echols' juvenile psych records doesn't begin to explain how he got two other boys to collaborate and how he managed to commit three murders without leaving a single trace of himself.

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  3. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pensfan View Post
    As a psych nurse with 3 decades of experience working with inpatient schizophrenics, I can clearly see Damien Echol's tardive dyskinesia symptoms and so can anyone else that watches his peculiar hand/finger movements in his recent interviews.
    If Echols has that condition now, I think he always did have it - by always, I mean from the time PL1 was filmed, at least. He's always done that thing with pursing up his mouth, I've never really noticed any hand movements though, now or then.

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  5. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pensfan View Post
    As a psych nurse with 3 decades of experience working with inpatient schizophrenics, I can clearly see Damien Echol's tardive dyskinesia symptoms and so can anyone else that watches his peculiar hand/finger movements in his recent interviews.

    Pensfan
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    Echols claims that he had to 'learn to walk again' because of being shackled. Could this be another symptom of his medication?

    I did notice his finger rolling when he interviews. He's always seated so I never got to see the 'shuffle', but that's what he claims.

    And now he also wears blue tinted sunglasses indoors, which I think is very weird.

  6. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by UdbCrzy2 View Post
    Echols claims that he had to 'learn to walk again' because of being shackled. Could this be another symptom of his medication?

    I did notice his finger rolling when he interviews. He's always seated so I never got to see the 'shuffle', but that's what he claims.

    And now he also wears blue tinted sunglasses indoors, which I think is very weird.
    The sunglasses are to shield his eyes which have become sensitive to sunlight due to the years when he never had sunlight. I believe the "shuffling" is gone now and he's walking normally. Personally, I think that the finger rolling is just a nervous tick that will eventually disappear when he no longer is thrust before the cameras so often.

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  8. #55
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    Many medications cause photosensitivity and wearing tinted glasses or sunglasses make facing the sunlight a lot more comfortable. His wearing the blue shades and some of his involuntary actions do indicate that he may take psychiatric medications that cause the side effects he exhibits.

    Echols may be taking some type of medication since he was diagnosed many times in the past as being depressed, bi-polar and/or schizophrenic. Those mental illnesses do not just "go away" and a person with a mental illness cannot "heal themselves" and it is a tragic fallacy to believe that they can do so because there are times when the illness is gone, for a while, but the medication is the reason for the calm and without it, serious mental illness will come back.

    If Mr. Echols needs to take psychiatric medication, then it is best that he continues to do so. It isn't something his supporters should be upset about, they shouldn't wish to see him suffer, I don't understand that way of thinking at all.

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  10. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by UdbCrzy2 View Post

    There is quite a bit of evidence including their own confessions and Echols mental health history that convicted the three who later plead guilty.
    A confession that Pulitzer prize winning social psycologist, Richard Ofshe proved that it was cohersed and a false confession.

    As for Echols him having a mental health issue doesn't prove a thing. The only evidence against Jason were items seized from his room. Concert t-shirts and posters. Damien’s notebook which included Metallica lyrics as well as his reading list was used against him. So they were picked on because of what they read, listen to and wore.

    Explain how there could be zero dna evidence from the three convicted men was found at the crime scene or on the victims. If it’s so easy for Terry Hobbs’ hair to have been transferred to Michael Moore’s body, please explain how the three convicted men were able to completely remove all traces of themselves from the crime scene and the victim’s bodies.

    If you truly believe that they are guilty of these crimes and that they murdered three young boys in the woods, in the dark, without leaving any DNA evidence from themselves but also leaving DNA from Hobbs and Jacoby intact.
    It's only after we've lost everything that we're free to do anything.

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  12. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by cami View Post

    Satanists usually kill babies as sacrifices and they mark the body with symbols so we let that motive go.
    oh ,really?

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  14. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Compassionate Reader View Post
    The sunglasses are to shield his eyes which have become sensitive to sunlight due to the years when he never had sunlight. I believe the "shuffling" is gone now and he's walking normally. Personally, I think that the finger rolling is just a nervous tick that will eventually disappear when he no longer is thrust before the cameras so often.
    It only took Damien Echol's rods in his retina 1-5 minutes to adjust to the sunlight once released from prison. He was not kept in a pitch black dungeon.

    Damien Echols has not been thrusted in front of cameras. Damien Echols voluntarily steps in front of cameras.

    Tardive dyskinesia symptoms are side effects of antipsychotic medications. They have been studied for HALF A CENTURY. They are not nervous ticks which will resolve with the discontinuance of cameras.

    See example of a severe pill-rolling tremor here:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaIN2zRQn8w"]Tremor - YouTube[/ame]

    See Damien Echols pill-rolling with his right hand’s index finger and thumb at 14 seconds, 54 seconds, 106 seconds, 145 seconds. Notice the peculiar positioning of his right hand during all of the interview. Like many other psychiatric patients that feel self-conscious about their tardive dyskinesia pill-rolling tremor, Damien positions his right hand when at rest in a peculiar position in an attempt to prevent his TD tremor from being occurring (keeps thumb and forefinger apart) and being extremely obvious.
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDBVXEARyqw"]Damien Echols on conditions in jail - YouTube[/ame]




    See Damien Echols pill-rolling tardive dyskinesia symptom again here at 2:12 while his right hand is at rest on the table. Notice the peculiar positioning of his right hand during most of the interview and all of his other interviews. Damien positions his right hand in such a peculiar position when it is at rest in an attempt to prevent his pill-rolling tremor from occurring. He must keeping his thumb and index finger apart while his hand is at rest or his fingers will pill roll. TD tremors do not always manifest equally bilaterally, but may appear more significantly on one side than the opposite side. I can’t see Damien’s left hand in the videos so it is unknown if his left hand is also pill rolling.
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qygs2bOyov8&feature=relmfu"]Jason Baldwin on celebrity support behind the West Memphis 3 - YouTube[/ame]


    Pensfan
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  16. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBounds View Post
    A confession that Pulitzer prize winning social psycologist, Richard Ofshe proved that it was cohersed and a false confession.

    As for Echols him having a mental health issue doesn't prove a thing. The only evidence against Jason were items seized from his room. Concert t-shirts and posters. Damienís notebook which included Metallica lyrics as well as his reading list was used against him. So they were picked on because of what they read, listen to and wore.

    Explain how there could be zero dna evidence from the three convicted men was found at the crime scene or on the victims. If itís so easy for Terry Hobbsí hair to have been transferred to Michael Mooreís body, please explain how the three convicted men were able to completely remove all traces of themselves from the crime scene and the victimís bodies.

    If you truly believe that they are guilty of these crimes and that they murdered three young boys in the woods, in the dark, without leaving any DNA evidence from themselves but also leaving DNA from Hobbs and Jacoby intact.
    BBM.

    This is what I've never seen anybody explain. Whenever you raise it you get either...

    a) Ditchwater washed all the DNA away

    b) The Hobbs' hair was secondary transfer

    How can people not see that those two explanations contradict each other? If the ditchwater washed the DNA away, it should have washed the Hobbs' hair away too. It should also have washed away all the stray hairs belonging to the three victims, but plenty of those were found.

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  18. #60
    OMG! I must have tardive dyskinesia! My finger twitches like the one in the top video from time to time.

    I'm sure that it's a real illness. However, I doubt that it can be accurately diagnosed by watching a few videos of someone. Isn't it possible that over 18 years on Death Row might have made him a bit nervous this soon after his release? Couldn't that nervousness be exhibited through these gestures?

    Also, people always point to his "finger to the mouth" gesture like it means that he's lying. However, the truth of the matter is that he was ashamed of his teeth. It is an attempt to cover up his teeth - not lies.

    I have seen videos of Damien while still in prison that I don't think exhibited any of the "pill rolling" that is discussed. He seemed more at ease in those videos because he was in familiar surroundings. Look at the last interview with Bruce and Joe.

    However, he is becoming more comfortable now. In some of the recent Q & A sessions following a PL3 screening I don't remember any unusual hand movements. In short, I think that too much is being made of some of his mannerisms.

    Oh, I believe someone somewhere mentioned that Damien never smiled. I said that I would find a picture of him smiling and post it. Here ya go:

    http://www.zap2it.com/news/pictures/...allery?index=1

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  20. #61
    Here's a video of Damien after a little more time had passed.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=0HXqtAnZTcg

    I see an articulate, confident young man. I don't see pin-rolling fingers or even fingers to the mouth anymore. Could it be that he is actually adjusting to freedom and all that stuff was nervousness because he had been locked away from society for so long?

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  22. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Compassionate Reader View Post
    Here's a video of Damien after a little more time had passed.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=0HXqtAnZTcg

    I see an articulate, confident young man. I don't see pin-rolling fingers or even fingers to the mouth anymore. Could it be that he is actually adjusting to freedom and all that stuff was nervousness because he had been locked away from society for so long?
    I wanted to comment on the TD and "pill-rolling", etc. I watched these videos, and while I can see that some might think he is doing the rolling thing with his fingers, it might also be just a nervous mannerism. I don't really have much of an opinion on that either way.

    But the main thing I wanted to comment on was TD itself. I did a little research on tardive dyskenesia a few years ago. My doctor had prescribed me Seroquel for BPD, and I started having symptoms of TD. It was horrible and was the reason I stopped taking it. I distinctly remember reading that TD is sometimes permanent, and I thought that was kinda scary. Mine wasn't, the TD stopped as soon as I stopped the medication. BUT, if Damien seems to have some of these mannerisms, couldn't it be from some period before when he WAS taking meds? Making it is something he will always have. Just a thought.

    PS. ALso, if he does have TD, he is not necessarily taking something for schizophrenia, I say from my own experience. I took the Seroquel because I was bi-polar. Maybe he said he is not taking any drugs, but maybe he is and he feels it is not anyones business.

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  24. #63
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by cami View Post
    None of us can guess what motivated this crime. That's why prosecutors are never required to prove a motive. Since there is no physical evidence to follow, they had to believe the motive was satanism as that's what they were being told and there was proof at least from Damien. We all know others can be coerced into a crime.

    Satanists usually kill babies as sacrifices and they mark the body with symbols so we let that motive go.

    Seems thrill kill might be the only motive left. I don't think it was planned, it was spur of the moment but I beleive it's something Damien fantasized about.
    Hi Cam!! Are you seriously kidding me, you are now in the total belief that the WM3 committed the crime? Wow, I pretty much caved on Darlie but this one I will never give any credence to... They are completely innocent, railroaded by a god fearing public & amok prosecution that had to catch/find the killer(s) of these 3 beautiful innocent young boys.... Just my opinion of course, however, this one you have wrong my friend!! Talk to you soon!! BTW, what do you think about Jodi Arias? GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY!! Ann
    "To thine own self be true"

    "When I refrain from thoughts of harm directed toward others, I accumulate all the benefits of life"

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  26. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by justthinkin View Post
    Thank you, Pensfan. I've seen Damien's blunt affect, don't believe he is or ever was bipolar I or II, mainly from watching him, and because when asked on the stand to describe his manic episodes, he was clueless about what constitutes mania.
    IIRC he stated that when manic, he withdrew. I know very well that Manics don't withdraw; they engage. I am just curious why Echols would put his illness off to being Bipolar vs. schizophrenia. Perhaps he thought bipolar was the more socially acceptable of the two?

    Jack Echols gave a good description of Damien's earlier years on Callahan.8k.com, and it seems to me Damien has been suffering with schizophrenic tendencies since childhood whether diagnosed back then or not, and yet, I can't imagine how he could come off death row without being a blithering idiot having had no medication in all those years to control his illness. This puzzles me to no end.

    I was under the impression with schizophrenia showing up that early in life, the prognosis was not good at all, and am therefore quite surprised Echols is doing as good as he is. But it also bothers me in a way since I know very well, a psychopath will pretend to be many things if it suits his purpose. What do you think are the odds Echols is a schizophrenic psychopath (Is that even possible?)or just a plain psychopath?

    Can you point me to a video where I can view his tardive dyskinesia for myself? I have not noticed Echols having the hand movements you spoke of.

    If there's anything else about Echols that you notice that relates to schizophrenia or other illness, please do point it out.
    thanks again,
    jt
    No psychologist here but isn't schizophrenia very serious with lifelong symptoms if not controlled by medications, which is, in itself, hard to do? I don't see Damien as having that. Psychopathy is something totally different. Pretty much the same as being a sociopath.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pensfan View Post
    It only took Damien Echol's rods in his retina 1-5 minutes to adjust to the sunlight once released from prison. He was not kept in a pitch black dungeon.

    Damien Echols has not been thrusted in front of cameras. Damien Echols voluntarily steps in front of cameras.

    Tardive dyskinesia symptoms are side effects of antipsychotic medications. They have been studied for HALF A CENTURY. They are not nervous ticks which will resolve with the discontinuance of cameras.

    See example of a severe pill-rolling tremor here:
    Tremor - YouTube

    See Damien Echols pill-rolling with his right handís index finger and thumb at 14 seconds, 54 seconds, 106 seconds, 145 seconds. Notice the peculiar positioning of his right hand during all of the interview. Like many other psychiatric patients that feel self-conscious about their tardive dyskinesia pill-rolling tremor, Damien positions his right hand when at rest in a peculiar position in an attempt to prevent his TD tremor from being occurring (keeps thumb and forefinger apart) and being extremely obvious.
    Damien Echols on conditions in jail - YouTube


    See Damien Echols pill-rolling tardive dyskinesia symptom again here at 2:12 while his right hand is at rest on the table. Notice the peculiar positioning of his right hand during most of the interview and all of his other interviews. Damien positions his right hand in such a peculiar position when it is at rest in an attempt to prevent his pill-rolling tremor from occurring. He must keeping his thumb and index finger apart while his hand is at rest or his fingers will pill roll. TD tremors do not always manifest equally bilaterally, but may appear more significantly on one side than the opposite side. I canít see Damienís left hand in the videos so it is unknown if his left hand is also pill rolling.
    Jason Baldwin on celebrity support behind the West Memphis 3 - YouTube


    Pensfan
    verified psychiatric mental health nurse
    Interesting stuff, Pensfan. I don't see him as having the symptoms, though. One of my brothers and I have nervous twitches, so does one of my uncles. Lots of people do. What I have seen in videos of the condition, it seems almost constant:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEKxWzvoD7M"]Alan Wilson - Tardive Dyskinesia - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlVxv5ag0pQ"]Tardive Dyskinesia in young child after stopping Invega - YouTube[/ame]

    Of course, I'm no expert. I suppose someone could have just a little of the symptoms? I think it is very possible that Damien has been or is on anti-psychotics.

    Interesting thread. I believe the three are innocent but I'm always interested in other positions and a discussion about possible motive is relevant. Sorry if the anti-psychotic symptoms discussion is off topic. I think it's very annoying when a thread always devolves into guilt or innocence debates, because I want to actually read what people have to say on the particular topic, not just the same, circular arguments. Hopefully I haven't contributed to that!
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  28. #65
    Back to motive: Please let me know if there are any nons that know of any other case where teenagers kill children that are unknown and unrelated to them.
    Teenagers usually kill parents,class mates, ex-lovers,people that they blame for whatever they feel is wrong with them.
    The only cases I can think of were children were killed by other children as a "thrill" kill are Mary Bell and the two boys that killed the 4 year old in England.These kids were much younger and seemed to have no understanding of the value of human life.

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  30. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by claudicici View Post
    Back to motive: Please let me know if there are any nons that know of any other case where teenagers kill children that are unknown and unrelated to them.
    Teenagers usually kill parents,class mates, ex-lovers,people that they blame for whatever they feel is wrong with them.
    The only cases I can think of were children were killed by other children as a "thrill" kill are Mary Bell and the two boys that killed the 4 year old in England.These kids were much younger and seemed to have no understanding of the value of human life.

    http://listverse.com/2011/05/14/top-10-young-killers/

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  32. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by claudicici View Post
    Back to motive: Please let me know if there are any nons that know of any other case where teenagers kill children that are unknown and unrelated to them.
    Teenagers usually kill parents,class mates, ex-lovers,people that they blame for whatever they feel is wrong with them.
    The only cases I can think of were children were killed by other children as a "thrill" kill are Mary Bell and the two boys that killed the 4 year old in England.These kids were much younger and seemed to have no understanding of the value of human life.


    Leopold and Loeb.

    http://www.leopoldandloeb.com/histsub.html
    Last edited by Dysthymia; 01-10-2012 at 02:55 AM. Reason: Quote

  33. #68
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    Leopold and Loeb didn't murder an unrelated stranger, they murdered Loeb's 14 year old cousin.

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  35. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cappuccino View Post
    Leopold and Loeb didn't murder an unrelated stranger, they murdered Loeb's 14 year old cousin.
    Nathan Leopold and Richard Loeb stated that they drove around that day, looking for a victim (someone small like one boy they knew but couldn't locate) and after a long while of stalking boys, Bobby Franks left the ball field and was alone. He is described as being a friend of Richard Loeb's brother (not a cousin, although one site says he was a second cousin)and since Loeb knew him, it was easy to get him into their car. He wasn't chosen because Loeb knew him.
    He was taken simply because they needed a victim and he was there .

    http://www.leopoldandloeb.com/thecrime.html

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  37. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngelontheRiver View Post
    Interesting list, indeed! Surely the murders of Stevie, Michael, and Christopher were equally, if not more heinous than many in the link provided.

    So why wouldn't Damien, Jason, and Jesse be included in this list?

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  39. #71
    ...and you guys are right in the list there are seemingly kids that killed with no motive...but looking at each case seperately the motives can be found.They are found in the way these kids grew up and in all of these cases there was actual evidence in the WM3 there is none.Leaving that completely out I feel like Damien theoretically could have commited that crime,he had enough trauma in his life that it could be a possibility ,Jessie by all accounts loved children and only lashed out in anger not in a sadistic way and Jason there is just no way at all IMO the argument that he was coerced by Damien is completely out of the question IMO.
    Aside from all of that there was simply no evidence other than Jesse's words that any of them were at the crime scene.

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  41. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by claudicici View Post
    Back to motive: Please let me know if there are any nons that know of any other case where teenagers kill children that are unknown and unrelated to them.
    Teenagers usually kill parents,class mates, ex-lovers,people that they blame for whatever they feel is wrong with them.
    The only cases I can think of were children were killed by other children as a "thrill" kill are Mary Bell and the two boys that killed the 4 year old in England.These kids were much younger and seemed to have no understanding of the value of human life.
    Elizabeth olten's murder was commited an unrelated teen. Alyssa Bustamante. She was known to her however ,but in this case they were known too so I am not sure why that is a qualifer.

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  43. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dysthymia View Post
    Nathan Leopold and Richard Loeb stated that they drove around that day, looking for a victim (someone small like one boy they knew but couldn't locate) and after a long while of stalking boys, Bobby Franks left the ball field and was alone. He is described as being a friend of Richard Loeb's brother (not a cousin, although one site says he was a second cousin)and since Loeb knew him, it was easy to get him into their car. He wasn't chosen because Loeb knew him.
    He was taken simply because they needed a victim and he was there .

    http://www.leopoldandloeb.com/thecrime.html
    Second cousin is what I read too, and that murder wasn't a spur of the moment thrill kill either, it was pre-meditated and planned for up to 6 months in advance. Its not at all the same type of crime that the prosecution alleges happened here. And even with all the planning, they had to resort to someone who one of them knew because it was easier, and they were young and inexperienced killers.

    There's not many on that top ten list who qualify either. Of the eight on the list who were teens, most killed either family members, classmates, or kids who they knew from the neighbourhood. Of those left, one is a teenage burglar who gradually escalated to killing anyone, (adult or child), who happened to be in the houses he burgled, and one should be at the top of the list of dodgiest convictions in US legal history - higher up even than the wm3. A black 14 yr old who confesses in police custody with no parent or lawyer present, and is sent to the electric chair with no appeal because his parents couldn't afford a lawyer? That wouldn't meet any modern definition of beyond reasonable doubt.

    There's two left on that list who qualify as teens who went out and killed a child who was an unrelated stranger for the heck of it, which I suppose goes to show how rare that type of crime is.

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  45. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    You know perfectly well it was a public lake and not some place private to Baldwin. And there was no way to connect that knife to the crime.

    All this focus on Echols' juvenile psych records doesn't begin to explain how he got two other boys to collaborate and how he managed to commit three murders without leaving a single trace of himself.
    Except that from visuals, it looks like the pier was 30-50 feet from the end of the Baldwin trailer. I'm not saying the lake knife was Baldwin's or that it was used in the crime. I'm just providing that the pier was quite accessible to the Baldwin trailer, and would imagine he and friends spent time sitting on said pier. It's also the pier his mom would have used if she threw a knife into the lake.

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  47. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngelontheRiver View Post
    I notice there's at least one missing from that list, Ted Bundy, except he wasn't convicted for the murder I'm about to mention. He was alleged to have killed a 9 year old? female child in his neighborhood as a teenager. That would have been his first murder. I have no doubts it was Bundy that killed her, although he was never tried for that murder. Wasn't enough evidence left at the scene to convict.

    Just thinking out loud here. Wouldn't the first murder of most serial killers be a thrill killing?

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