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  1. #16
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by wasnt_me View Post
    Oh, wait. I totally thought his name was Mascara!

    I swear I read "Mascara" each and every time I saw his name. I JUST realized, it's Maresca?

    I'm SO SO SO bad with names. People think I'm making fun of names, but i'm not. I'm just terrible with them.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by wasnt_me View Post
    I guess we just just load this up with articles, since we missed a couple months. Hopefully, everyone will catch on that the thread is back.


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...?newsfeed=true

    Hellman ridicules attempts to demonise Knox because she bought G-string underwear days after the murder "rather than a more conservative type of underwear", and dismisses investigators' suspicions of Knox after she kissed Sollecito before questioning and turned cartwheels at the police station. Her behaviour, he writes, "was part of a need to find a minimum of normality in the context of a tragic situation".
    I wish I could find that one article where the quoted Hellmann's report on the cartwheels, Knox and Sollecito being of different character than Guede, and Guede's history of knife-wielding and burglary : The last was something I always asserted, and was always shot down on. There was a long article with many quotes from the report and now I cannot find it.

  3. #18
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    And it was to solidify [consolidare] a conviction [i.e. belief] based on assessments of mere probability that the first-level Corte di Assise felt it necessary to come up with a motive [for the crime] which, however, while not being corroborated by any objective piece of evidence, is itself not probable in the least:

    the sudden choice, on the part of two fine young people, well-disposed towards others [due giovani, bravi e disponibili verso gli altri], of evil for evil’s sake, just like that, without any other point (whence the aggravating circumstance of futile reasons alleged by the Public Minister); [and] all the more incomprehensible due to having been aimed at supporting the criminal action of another youth, Rudy Guede, with whom they had no relationship (there is not, for example, proof of telephone calls or text messages among the three), and [who was] different from them in terms of personal history, character, and human condition
    And not race, although it has been suggested...

    http://hellmannreport.wordpress.com/...on/conclusion/
    Last edited by SMK; 01-10-2012 at 11:57 AM.

  4. #19
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    In the end, the first-level Corte di Assise, in order to reconstruct the case presented to it, concluded that it could coordinate factual elements (held to be certain in themselves, but whose meaning was not entirely unambiguous) into a unified picture [quadro] in which each one of the elements could be given [conseguire] a definitive explanation, and all of them, collectively, an unambiguous meaning, giving rise to proof of guilt.

    Now, however, the “bricks” of this edifice [costruzione] have themselves collapsed; that is, this is not a question merely of a differing arrangement [una diversa ricollocazione] of these bricks, so as not to permit the realization of the planned architectural project, but rather of a lack of material necessary for the construction [in the first place]. And the collapse of the material elements of the prosecution case [il progetto accusatorio] obviously does not permit us to arrive at a verdict [pronuncia] of guilt beyond all reasonable doubt.
    http://hellmannreport.wordpress.com/...on/conclusion/
    Last edited by SMK; 01-10-2012 at 08:58 AM.

  5. #20
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    Hellman was also critical of sloppy and unfair interrogation methods, writing that:

    "The obsessive interrogation by police went on for hours, both day and night, and was carried out by several people on a young girl who at the time did not speak or understand Italian.

    "Her rights were ignored and she was not even appointed a lawyer, a right which she had, seeing as she was being accused of a serious crime.''

    http://articles.businessinsider.com/...#ixzz1j3mA1OoL

  6. #21
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    I am so, so frustrated - as I had copy pasted a passage from Hellmann's report on JREF, and now cannot find it.

    In it, Hellmann spoke of Guede's history of burglaries and using a kinfe, and how he brandished a knife on that elderly Perugain, Tramontano (sp?)---I will keep searching, but it was what I had always asserted:

    That Guede's history mattered.

    And now Hellmann says this openly in his Motivation report....

  7. #22
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    I found it!!!

    http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...61#post7895861

    Reading Candace Dempsey's New Year post:

    I am glad to see this quote from Hellmann's report concerning the character and antecedents of Guede - vis a vis the Massei theory that Rudy would not burglarize a place where he was made to feel welcome -

    Moreover: it has always vexed me that PGs refute his having a history of knife-wielding and burglarizing:


    "Moreover, Rudy was not a very nice person. Hellmann doesn’t think he had qualms about breaking into a cottage where (at least in the downstairs apartment, where the victim’s boyfriend lived), he’d been received as a friend:"

    [FROM HELLMANN, MOTIVATION, DEC 16]:

    The personality of Rudy Guede, as it emerges from witness statements, does not reveal any particular respect for other people.

    Not only had he — as recalled above — acquired experience as the perpetrator of burglaries in others’ apartments, sometimes even committed with the robbery victims present in the house (see Tramontano); not only had he not hesitated to use a knife to threaten the victim that had chased him (Tramontano again, but also in the Milan nursery he had taken possession of a 40-cm-long knife),

    but several times on the street, especially when he was drunk, he had importuned young women, attempting to hug and kiss them, and even the very fact (only seemingly banal; in reality very indicative of his ways) that he was in the habit of using the bathroom in other people’s houses (as a guest or as an intruder, it matters not here) to defecate or urinate without flushing afterward.
    http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2012/01/
    Last edited by SMK; 01-10-2012 at 11:12 AM.

  8. #23
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    In fairness to those who support the guilt of the defendants - and this was pointed out as well on JREF - if one has long held to the theories of guilt, it does in fact appear that Hellmann has simply echoed all the talking points which appeared in the "PR campaign":

    • Guede's history of petty crime and kinfe wielding
    • the Lone Wolf Scenario's probability
    • the upholding of Knox and Sollecito as "good kids"
    • the harshness of the police interrogation
    • the lack of evidence
    • the sloppy police work


    However, these points had been brought up time and again because they fit in with empirical fact.

    At least this is how it appears to me, rather than that Hellmann allowed himself to be used as a mere mouthpiece, or succumbed to any form of political pressure.

    As stated elsewhere, some believe the attorney general will not actually appeal. I am not sure of this....any thoughts?

  9. #24
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    Here is a synopsis of the main points from the Amanda Knox Appeal Forum:

    The major points of the report supporting Hellmann's not guilty verdict are:

    • No logical motive.
    • DNA evidence condemned by court appointed experts
    • Lower court did not prove Knox was at the scene of crime.
    • Faulty time of death used by lower court (Hellmann moves the time of death back an hour).
    • Amanda Knox behavior dismissed as not a sign of guilt as people behave differently under stress.
    • Hellmann disputes Knox and Sollecito involvement with Guede as improbable. No evidence of communication with Guede exists (no e-mails, no phone calls or text messages).
    • Hellmann condemns police questioning as causing great psychological stress leading to falsely accusing Lumumba. Hellmann states that Knox told the police what she thought they wanted to hear out police induced psychological stress. In fact, Hellmann says, that to use the word 'stress' would be understating the event.
    • Witnesses produced by the prosecution were unreliable.


    These are most of the main points of Hellmann's report. There is of course much more to the report than I have stated, but the above address most of the important issues as regards the not guilty verdict.
    http://amandaknoxappealforum.blogspo...otivation.html

  10. #25
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    Another of the talking points which used to be argued here and elsewhere, now given special emphasis by Hellmann-Zanetti in the MOT report:

    (One would assume that, right when the murder was recent, and in the local papers, that Q would have rushed to give this information, and not hold back for over a year, until pestered by a journalist who wanted a story: )

    In fact it should be remembered that Mr. Quintavalle, questioned by the Police who were searching for useful information in the days immediately following the perpetration of the crime, by which time the newspapers and the media were busy working on the story on a wider scale, did not mention the girl who had waited for the opening of the store on the morning of 2 November and had then entered as soon as he had opened to the public, heading to the section where household and hygiene products were on display (even if then – according to the same Quintavalle – she left without buying anything).

    Nor did he come forward in the following days or in the following months to report what had happened.

    In fact he presented himself to the Police following continuous requests [sollecitazioni] by a young apprentice journalist who lived in the area of his store, only one year later, declaring to be convinced, thanks mostly to the color of her eyes (blue) and of her complexion (very pale), that the girl who had entered his store that morning was indeed Amanda Knox.
    http://hellmannreport.wordpress.com/...n/quintavalle/
    Last edited by SMK; 01-10-2012 at 12:22 PM.


  11. #26
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    In which Hellmann leaves open the Lone Wolf scenario as likely:

    The following in support of a likely lone wolf attack and Guede's antecedents as very relevant, along with the copious amounts of evidence he left behind, had long been argued here, and refuted by some:

    It follows that the ruling in question, which we can accept with regard to the responsibility of Rudy Guede (which is certainly not undermined [non viene certo meno] by regarding the single-actor hypothesis as the most reliable) insofar as the items of evidence against him are numerous and unambiguous (from his DNA being found not on one item but on several, even in the vaginal swab, to the print on the pillow and the blood on the sweatshirt worn by the victim, to the shoeprints; and even his previous behavior, as one experienced in entering apartments to rob, equipped with a knife, even [simply] to bother [other] youths), does not assume any relevance in ascertaining the responsibility of the current defendants.
    http://hellmannreport.wordpress.com/...ng-rudy-guede/

  12. #27
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    Good to see the discussion has re-opened here. The Hellmann report is common sense, the same common sense that many on the side of innocence have been pointing out for several years.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMK View Post
    I am so, so frustrated - as I had copy pasted a passage from Hellmann's report on JREF, and now cannot find it.

    In it, Hellmann spoke of Guede's history of burglaries and using a kinfe, and how he brandished a knife on that elderly Perugain, Tramontano (sp?)---I will keep searching, but it was what I had always asserted:

    That Guede's history mattered.

    And now Hellmann says this openly in his Motivation report....
    Oh, I was just about to tell you I remembered reading that,but you found it. RG's history was the reason it all happened. It's uncanny how he can sit in jail and be mad that the other two "got off" and he's the only one in jail. Unless he really did happen to have unknown accomplices, he has nothing to be mad about. He only got 16 years!
    "If Jodi's lips are moving...if her pen is moving...then she lie, lie, lies!"

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMK View Post
    In fairness to those who support the guilt of the defendants - and this was pointed out as well on JREF - if one has long held to the theories of guilt, it does in fact appear that Hellmann has simply echoed all the talking points which appeared in the "PR campaign":

    • Guede's history of petty crime and kinfe wielding
    • the Lone Wolf Scenario's probability
    • the upholding of Knox and Sollecito as "good kids"
    • the harshness of the police interrogation
    • the lack of evidence
    • the sloppy police work


    However, these points had been brought up time and again because they fit in with empirical fact.

    At least this is how it appears to me, rather than that Hellmann allowed himself to be used as a mere mouthpiece, or succumbed to any form of political pressure.

    As stated elsewhere, some believe the attorney general will not actually appeal. I am not sure of this....any thoughts?
    I sincerely hope he does not. Those who have the technical knowledge on the court system will have to chime in, but I thought we've always said the sup. court will only consider technical issues, not the evidence? If that's the case, we'd have to find out if the appeals court errored in any way with procedure.
    "If Jodi's lips are moving...if her pen is moving...then she lie, lie, lies!"

  15. #30
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    I'm glad to see the discussion back.

    Next up, presumably, is the defense and or prosecution appeal motions. Due by the end of the month.

    Anyone want to make a guess as to whether:

    1. The defense (Amanda's) will appeal the one standing conviction, calunnia.

    2. The prosecution will appeal

    3. The outcome at the end of any appeals

    How about the other related cases? Aren't there a pile of charges against AK, her family, the Sollecito family and various lawyers pending?

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