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Thread: PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #9

  1. #276
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    The 90% Figure that I used above was reported by CNN. So maybe I shouldn't use CNN for my stats anymore. They were reporting that a vast majority of these victims could have been spared abuse if Sandusky was tried in 98. They used the figure 90%....unless I misunderstood them. And that's a possibility. I read my post above and entire phrases were missing....LOL. That's what happens when I wait to this time of night to "work on my cases."

    (Hubby says, "What do you do when you 'work on your cases?'" I said, "Well, I read. I think it over and post." "Does that help 'solve' the cases...when you read and think and post?" "Oh yes, absolutely." "Ok then, carry on!")

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  3. #277
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    Of the 10 known victims, Victims 1, 2, 3, 8 were post 1998. Victim 5 (I think) may have been; he has given two different dates in testimony.

    Ironically, I'd call Victims 2, 8, and 5 the ones that are the weakest and the ones Sandusky is the most likely to win on.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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  5. #278
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    From the Washington Post:

    Yet evidence and testimony from the trial also show there were plenty of people, not just those at the highest levels of the university, who had ample opportunity to stop a man accused of violating 10 boys over 15 years:

    [snip]

    A district attorney with a reputation for prosecuting cases involving children and sexual abuse victims declined to charge Sandusky over a 1998 molestation allegation even though the detective who investigated thought it was a solid case. The DA, Ray Gricar, disappeared in 2005 and was declared legally dead last year.



    http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...IhV_story.html


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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  7. #279
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    Thumbs down At what point is a statement belabored to the point of being bedraggled?

    At what point in time are the statements about the 1998 abuse allegations going to become redundant as applied to a man declared legally dead and unable to tell us WHY he did ANYTHING or DIDN'T DO ANOTHET THING?

    This continual posting of the same thing over and over " Gricar knew about Vic 6 and chose not to prosecute" is getting to be both redundant and harmful to the good name of a man who cannot answer back.

    Is there anyone following Mr. Gricar's disappearance who doesn't KNOW this by now? I think not!!!
    I am " Social Media" phobic BY CHOICE. I do not read personal blogs, I do not have, nor will I follow, any Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, MySpace accounts or any other like network. I do NOT Google or otherwise seek info regarding people related to victims. I do not STALK families of victims, so don't tell me to "Google" a blog or another site.
    UNLESS A LINK IS POSTED, MY POSTS REFLECT MY OPINION ONLY.

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  9. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeekingJana View Post
    At what point in time are the statements about the 1998 abuse allegations going to become redundant as applied to a man declared legally dead and unable to tell us WHY he did ANYTHING or DIDN'T DO ANOTHET THING?

    This continual posting of the same thing over and over " Gricar knew about Vic 6 and chose not to prosecute" is getting to be both redundant and harmful to the good name of a man who cannot answer back.

    Is there anyone following Mr. Gricar's disappearance who doesn't KNOW this by now? I think not!!!
    E pluribus unum. (Latin is useful in understanding me.) Bluntly, in the last week, I've had about 20 news alerts telling me the same thing.

    The WP is one of the top two newspapers in the US. I wanted to post that because of the paper, and because the article goes further and notes others who failed as well.

    One of the very good things about this site is that it is indexed and preserved for research. I felt that this one should be representative.

    Remember, I also look at the media reaction to the case. Also remember that some people are not following the case closely.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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  11. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeekingJana View Post
    At what point in time are the statements about the 1998 abuse allegations going to become redundant as applied to a man declared legally dead and unable to tell us WHY he did ANYTHING or DIDN'T DO ANOTHET THING?

    This continual posting of the same thing over and over " Gricar knew about Vic 6 and chose not to prosecute" is getting to be both redundant and harmful to the good name of a man who cannot answer back.

    Is there anyone following Mr. Gricar's disappearance who doesn't KNOW this by now? I think not!!!
    If we gave up on redundant information being discussed, then most missing people here at WS would not be remembered at all. No one is trying to diss Mr. Gricar. Respectfully, no one in my circle of acquaintances has any idea who he is.

    By trying to "re-hash" everything here, we try to find something...anything....new, that might click open a clue.

    If we don't do that, this thread is dead. Our goal is to persevere. We are into finding answers...and if not that, then keeping remembrance alive.

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  13. #282
    "Cleland also expressed doubt that prosecutors had made their case for indecent assault related to alleged Victim 6- the case that Prosecutor Ray Gricar declined to pursue in 1998- but denied the request for the case to be thrown out and said a jury will decide."
    Sara Ganim, PennLive, June 18,2012 at 9:49am

  14. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by and nothing but View Post
    "Cleland also expressed doubt that prosecutors had made their case for indecent assault related to alleged Victim 6- the case that Prosecutor Ray Gricar declined to pursue in 1998- but denied the request for the case to be thrown out and said a jury will decide."
    Sara Ganim, PennLive, June 18,2012 at 9:49am
    That referrers to one specific charge related to Victim 6 "Indecent Assault of a Person Less than 13 Years of Age." It is a misdemeanor and, if convicted on that charge alone, it wouldn't even land Sandusky on Meagan's List.

    There are ten other charges related to that incident, four of which are felonies. The felonies are all "Unlawful Contact with Minor." Conviction on the felonies would require Sandusky to be listed.

    The judge has ruled, based on less evidence that there was in 1998, that all the charges would be sent to a jury. I do agree that specific "Indecent Assault," will be difficult to prove.

    A full breakdown on the charges, including links to the statute, is available here: http://www.centredaily.com/2011/11/1...#storylink=cpy

    I wouldn't have been to surprised if Sandusky had been charged in 1998 with "Indecent Assault" they would have found him not guilty and would find him guilty today. The cumulative effect of the other charges might sway the jurors.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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  16. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post

    The judge has ruled, based on less evidence that there was in 1998, that all the charges would be sent to a jury. I do agree that specific "Indecent Assault," will be difficult to prove.

    A full breakdown on the charges, including links to the statute, is available here: http://www.centredaily.com/2011/11/1...#storylink=cpy

    I wouldn't have been to surprised if Sandusky had been charged in 1998 with "Indecent Assault" they would have found him not guilty and would find him guilty today. The cumulative effect of the other charges might sway the jurors.
    Sandusky was convicted on all charges related to Victim 6, except for "Indecent Assault," a misdemeanor. That was not unexpected. Had he been convicted on the same charges in 1998-99, he would have faced 5-7 years on the felony and been on Meagan's List.

    I can only say thank you to the jury and Attorney General's Office.

    Ray Gricar declined to file charges.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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  18. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    Sandusky was convicted on all charges related to Victim 6, except for "Indecent Assault," a misdemeanor. That was not unexpected. Had he been convicted on the same charges in 1998-99, he would have faced 5-7 years on the felony and been on Meagan's List.

    I can only say thank you to the jury and Attorney General's Office.

    Ray Gricar declined to file charges.
    I am glad that Sandusky will now pay for what he has done. More relieved and grateful to the jury for their verdicts than words can express. I've cried.
    That being said, I hope so very much that the last news/ information people remember about Ray Gricar is NOT that he didn't take Vic 6's case forward.
    It would be a grave injustice to the memory of a man who did so much good in his lifetime.

    This is what I wanted to say earlier in this thread when everyone was whooping on and on about Victim 6 and the current Sandusky trial. Also, we can second guess, but we can never know if Victim 6's testimony would have resulted in any convictions of a " Penn State icon" and Second Mile founder and " philanthropist" .

    Sandusky is a blight upon this earth, but we must separate HIS actions from Ray Gricar's thinking, because we do NOT know why he didn't take Victim 6's case forward.
    He is not here to speak in his own behalf.

    Fellow posters, friends, can we please go back to discussing the missing persons case of Ray Frank Gricar?
    I am " Social Media" phobic BY CHOICE. I do not read personal blogs, I do not have, nor will I follow, any Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, MySpace accounts or any other like network. I do NOT Google or otherwise seek info regarding people related to victims. I do not STALK families of victims, so don't tell me to "Google" a blog or another site.
    UNLESS A LINK IS POSTED, MY POSTS REFLECT MY OPINION ONLY.

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  20. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeekingJana View Post

    Sandusky is a blight upon this earth, but we must separate HIS actions from Ray Gricar's thinking, because we do NOT know why he didn't take Victim 6's case forward.
    He is not here to speak in his own behalf.

    Fellow posters, friends, can we please go back to discussing the missing persons case of Ray Frank Gricar?
    Agreed in part, but they might be related either to voluntary departure or to foul play Or not.

    The decision is strange enough to raise questions.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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  22. #287
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    Since this was the topic before recent events, can we conclude that RFG might have some plausible reason to voluntarily leave?
    Last edited by J. J. in Phila; 06-23-2012 at 03:37 PM.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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  24. #288
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    If RFG's body had been found and it was determined he had committed suicide, would his daughter have received the same benefits as she did when he was declared dead?

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  26. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
    If RFG's body had been found and it was determined he had committed suicide, would his daughter have received the same benefits as she did when he was declared dead?
    Yes, if it was determined that he died while in office, at least in terms of pension benefits.

    It is possible that some life insurance might require a specific period of time between purchase and death by suicide; I think it is 2-5 years. I have not heard of any pre disappearance purchases.

    Also, there was some cost in his daughter becoming administrator and declaring him dead, but not excessive.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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  28. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    Since this was the topic before recent events, can we conclude that RFG might have some plausible reason to voluntarily leave?
    Of course we can speculate that he might have varied reasons to take his leave voluntarily.
    However, I think we should keep in mind the statement issued by LE formally that there is NO reason to believe there is a connection between the recent activity in PA and Mr. Gricar's disappearance 7 years ago.

    WS has had a long-standing policy of NOT VICTIMIZING A VICTIM.
    If we break this tenet, even in the absence of known foul play against Mr. Gricar, then we have little personal integrity and even less compassion for a missing person now declared dead.

    Thanks, JJ,
    Maria
    I am " Social Media" phobic BY CHOICE. I do not read personal blogs, I do not have, nor will I follow, any Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, MySpace accounts or any other like network. I do NOT Google or otherwise seek info regarding people related to victims. I do not STALK families of victims, so don't tell me to "Google" a blog or another site.
    UNLESS A LINK IS POSTED, MY POSTS REFLECT MY OPINION ONLY.

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  30. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeekingJana View Post
    Of course we can speculate that he might have varied reasons to take his leave voluntarily.
    However, I think we should keep in mind the statement issued by LE formally that there is NO reason to believe there is a connection between the recent activity in PA and Mr. Gricar's disappearance 7 years ago.
    My point was is that there may be numerous motives, including Sandusky, but not limited to it, for walkaway. I'm saying that there could be a number of possible motives, some honorable, and some not. I think, after this, we should concede that RFG could have a motive to leave voluntarily, and not focus on what motive is (unless there is a new development). I'd like to just leave a motive for walkaway off the table and stipulate that there could be one. This was big point of discussion prior to 11/5/11.

    As for murder, I'd still look at potential motives, but that could include Sandusky.

    I'm actually interested in the means for getting out of Lewisburg. Even in terms of foul play, I can't see him being forced into a car (well, at least by one person) in that parking lot.

    Here are some photos of that lot: https://picasaweb.google.com/LookingforRay


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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    Just my 2 cents: when it comes to a missing person case, there is no such thing as bad publicity.

    If it's already decided that RFG is simply dead. Cased closed. What's the point of the thread?

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  33. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
    Just my 2 cents: when it comes to a missing person case, there is no such thing as bad publicity.

    If it's already decided that RFG is simply dead. Cased closed. What's the point of the thread?
    I haven't concluded anything. I'm think primarily about a motive for voluntary departure. I can come up with a whole bunch of theoretical reasons why RFG might. I'm wondering if we can just concede that RFG could have had a motive to walk away, and not dwell on what it could be?


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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  35. #294
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    I have always had the upmost respect and admiration for Mr. Gricar, and especially his nephew Tony for "stepping up to the plate" and being a voice for his uncle. That being said, I believe that something went terribly wrong in "Happy Valley" regarding Mr. Gricar. I believe it is time for fresh eyes to look at his case, and this time include the "monster" in it. IMO, if Mr. Gricar is REALLY dead, he could very well of been killed for turning his head or for wanting to move forward with this case. As for Mr. Gricar's reputation, from what I know he did MANY good things for the women in PA., but not believing the victim who came forward, will be his legacy.
    Destiny Renee Brewer-November 2,1999-June 28, 2010. Destiny -I love and miss you, tiny dancer!!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtIje...feature=fvwrel

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  37. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
    Just my 2 cents: when it comes to a missing person case, there is no such thing as bad publicity.

    If it's already decided that RFG is simply dead. Cased closed. What's the point of the thread?
    I won't believe he is dead until they find his body.
    Destiny Renee Brewer-November 2,1999-June 28, 2010. Destiny -I love and miss you, tiny dancer!!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtIje...feature=fvwrel

  38. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    Sandusky was convicted on all charges related to Victim 6, except for "Indecent Assault," a misdemeanor. That was not unexpected. Had he been convicted on the same charges in 1998-99, he would have faced 5-7 years on the felony and been on Meagan's List.

    I can only say thank you to the jury and Attorney General's Office.

    Ray Gricar declined to file charges.
    Isn't it important for people to know that there is no more evidence today than there wa in 1989? For people to claim there wasn't enough evidence, I want to know where the "new" evidence came from. Simply stated, LE and Mr. Gricar chose not to believe "victim 6" and imo they could have saved MANY from being victimized by this monster.

    Five to seven years would have saved HOW MANY of the victims? And he would have been on the SEX OFFENDERS list and kept away from the Second Mile, and the children he preyed upon.
    Destiny Renee Brewer-November 2,1999-June 28, 2010. Destiny -I love and miss you, tiny dancer!!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtIje...feature=fvwrel

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  40. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    I haven't concluded anything. I'm think primarily about a motive for voluntary departure. I can come up with a whole bunch of theoretical reasons why RFG might. I'm wondering if we can just concede that RFG could have had a motive to walk away, and not dwell on what it could be?
    Yes. We've discussed voluntary walkaway for years with no clear- cut motive known to us. Unless Ray Gricar was in a very rare fugue state mentally, HE knew why he left, if he left, but we don't know.

    That's my point. We can discuss everything we know, which is very little, but we cannot assign an absolute reason ( personal or professional) to anything Mr. Gricar did but did not explain in clear terms.
    IMO, he wasn't a man of many words, so most of the things we wonder about are subject to our own perceptions, our own bias,
    and also IMO, are subject to the current anger which should be directed against a pedophile.

    I think it is extremely short- sighted and vengeful to say that Ray Gricar's legacy in office will be his failure to prosecute Sandusky. I will never hold the opinion of him held by one of the newer posters in Mr. Gricar's case ( probably brought here by the Sandusky cases).

    There is/ was much about Mr. Gricar to be admired. He was a highly regarded, hard-working DA for many years. He is/was loved by his family.
    He is/ was a man of integrity. I stand by my long- held opinions on his moral character.
    No human is perfect, and hindsight is 20/20.

    The anger belongs in the Sandusky case threads, because we do not KNOW why Ray Gricar acted or failed to act, or what he might have done which is not currently a matter of public record due to the length of time that's passed. Also, the fact that he cannot speak up for himself should be remembered before harsh sentiments are expressed against him.
    I am " Social Media" phobic BY CHOICE. I do not read personal blogs, I do not have, nor will I follow, any Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, MySpace accounts or any other like network. I do NOT Google or otherwise seek info regarding people related to victims. I do not STALK families of victims, so don't tell me to "Google" a blog or another site.
    UNLESS A LINK IS POSTED, MY POSTS REFLECT MY OPINION ONLY.

  41. #298
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    What is short-sighted and vengeful is for another poster to dismiss a posters valid opinion. As for being "new" or brought here by Sandusky's case, if you are talking about me, you are wrong on both counts.

    I have done lots of research on Mr. Gricar's case at my own expense. For you to act like you know who i am or why i am here is not only dissrespectful, it is heartbreaking. The ONLY reason I am here is to search for the TRUTH about Mr. Gricar. IF we turn our heads to the decision he made in 1989, that makes us one of them....THERE was a REASON he chose NOT to prosecute.

    Maybe MIke Madiera could answer some of the inter-office questions, and of course how HE is related to "Jer."
    Destiny Renee Brewer-November 2,1999-June 28, 2010. Destiny -I love and miss you, tiny dancer!!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtIje...feature=fvwrel

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  43. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJMAJORGIRL24 View Post
    Isn't it important for people to know that there is no more evidence today than there wa in 1989? For people to claim there wasn't enough evidence, I want to know where the "new" evidence came from. Simply stated, LE and Mr. Gricar chose not to believe "victim 6" and imo they could have saved MANY from being victimized by this monster.

    Five to seven years would have saved HOW MANY of the victims? And he would have been on the SEX OFFENDERS list and kept away from the Second Mile, and the children he preyed upon.

    First, there was more evidence in 1998, and additional victim, B. K, who couldn't testify before the grand jury, because he was in the military.

    Even a failed prosecution, or a plea bargain, would have probably protected several of the victims, but not all of them. Some of them predate the incident.

    It was a [b]mistake[/i], a horrible, and colossal mistake. It may be related to his disappearance or something random. Maybe we'll find out it was more than a mistake, or a colossal collapse of judgment, but the evidence is there at this point.

    This is part of the legacy of Ray Gricar, but to be balanced, it is not the entire legacy. I've looked at his cases, both before and after 11/5/11. Every time I look, I see him, often personally, trying difficult cases, sometimes high profile case, that he'd lose. Same with high profile Penn State cases. Sometimes he'd bring charges only to have a judge say that he didn't have enough and toss it prior to a jury hearing it.

    Ray Gricar was a had hitting prosecutor, that would take tough cases, but not with Sandusky in 1998. That is his legacy. Why that "but" is in there is questionable; him backing off politically doesn't make a great deal of sense. Neither does not enough evidence.

    The problem that I have is that Victim 6 (and B. K.) are just so atypical of his record. How he handled it, internally in the office, seems to be atypical as well. Honestly, there is no love lost between Arnold and myself, but she certainly seems to have been in favor of handling it differently and probably better. She wasn't called to rebut Schreffler and she praised Schreffler. Heck, Schreffler praised Gricar apart from this.

    The question that I have, primarily is if this is related to his disappearance. Obviously, if walkaway, it could, on many levels.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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  45. #300
    perhaps we all KNOW less than we think we know.

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