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  1. #16
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    First, I do hope everything goes well.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeekingJana View Post


    There's NO WAY Karen Arnold was intimidated before a GJ is my point. She FINALLY had a chance to say some things she might have waited a long time to say.. we don't know. GJs are extremely lenient on what they allow a person to say unless the person rants and raves ( is disrespectful).
    I have a very hard time seeing JKA thinking that testifying is, ""more negative experiences in my life," if she said it.

    Further, if the filing is correct, she disagreed with RFG. If she also thought that charges should have been filed, I'm certainly going to be praising her for making the right the decision. I can't figure out how she would argue for any greater leniency, considering RFG did not prosecute Sandusky.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?


  2. #17
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    JJ: I think you said you've interviewed people close to Gricar. I guess that includes Patty.

    I know PA code still uses the legal term 'paramour', especially in child abuse cases. Since that is what JKA spent a lot of time on, do you think that's why she consistently referred to Patty as Ray's 'paramour'? I.e, just her habit as a lawyer?

    Some people think she was hinting that Patty's affection for Ray was waning, and that Patty herself had a 'paramour' other than Ray.


  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    This isn't about the Powell case.



    You really do not consider a naked bear hug from behind "fondling?"

    And it wasn't 14 years, as RFG could have filed at any point prior to the end of his term. Let's recap:

    1998-99: RFG, who was facing re-election, fails to file charges against Sandusky, popular football coach.

    2000-01: RFG, who was facing re-election, fails to file charges against Sandusky, a former football coach.

    2001-05 RFG, who was planning to retire at the end of his term, fails to file charges against Sandusky, a former football coach.




    Might it be that some of his "friends" decided not to prosecute? You raised the point.

    As I said, you had better pray that this was nothing more than a colossal lapse of judgment. I am.
    A prosecutor does not continue to re-think his decision not to prosecute once it is made, unless new allegations are made. As you know, Neither RG nor local law enforcement were told of the 2002 RAPE at PSU which would no doubt have resulted in charges, given that there was a witness. I love how PSU covers up Sandusky's pedophilia but RG takes the blame becausehe felt he didn't have enough to bring charges.

    I pray that RG murderer(s) will be found and brought to jistice, and that Sandusky's protectors don't slip him off the hook.


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  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinktoes View Post
    JJ: I think you said you've interviewed people close to Gricar. I guess that includes Patty.
    I have never talked to her, and I would find it very uncomfortable.


    Some people think she was hinting that Patty's affection for Ray was waning, and that Patty herself had a 'paramour' other than Ray.
    I know of none that have suggested that.

    PEF had interesting situation. RFG lived in her house and she owned the car. She also left a possibly higher paying position in the DA's Office to become a clerk about 3 months prior to the disappearance and was planning to retire with RFG. If she didn't want to be with him, she could have to get out and leave the Mini.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?


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  7. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by pittsburghgirl View Post
    A prosecutor does not continue to re-think his decision not to prosecute once it is made, unless new allegations are made.
    Where did you get that? If, as you have suggested, he didn't prosecute for political reasons, those reasons vanished in 2001. RFG for example, didn't file charges in the Mendez-Vargas case for almost a year and only after a lot of internal debate in the office.

    I'm sorry, but that comment bears no resemblance to reality.

    As you know, Neither RG nor local law enforcement were told of the 2002 RAPE at PSU which would no doubt have resulted in charges, given that there was a witness. I love how PSU covers up Sandusky's pedophilia but RG takes the blame becausehe felt he didn't have enough to bring charges.
    Except he did have enough to bring charges, and PSU didn't cover that one up (unless you are suggesting that RFG was "in cahoots" with PSU in 1998. Are you?).

    I pray that RG murderer(s) will be found and brought to jistice, and that Sandusky's protectors don't slip him off the hook.
    I've ask you for evidence that RFG was the victim of foul play. Your statement does not make it so.

    We have evidence that RFG did not prosecute Sandusky in 1998. We know that there was no new evidence in the case, and one victim available in 1998 was not available in 2011.

    Even if this was foul play, you better start praying that RFG's 1998 was only a colossal lapse of judgment (and it may have been).


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?


  8. #21
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    I think this is worth saying:

    A colossal lapse of judgment is not:

    1. An abuse of discretion.

    2. An unethical act.

    3. An illegal act.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?


  9. #22
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    Maybe Gricar is alive, holding some Sandusky evidence from 1998 and subsequent years. For safekeeping, you know, since there are possible lots of the monied/power crowd that'd like the entire Sandusky mess to go away. And he'll show up, at the proper time, evidence in hand! Now THAT would make a happy ending for everybody. Well, all the good guys.

    You know, the objective evidence and what's required to get a conviction in a community of interconnected business and political interests, including corruption within both law enforcement and government--those are 2 entirely different things. IF Gricar is/was one of the good guys, he knew that all too well.

    That's the answer to why he didn't prosecute in 1998, IMHO. I know JJ disagrees and that's okay!


  10. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinktoes View Post
    Maybe Gricar is alive, holding some Sandusky evidence from 1998 and subsequent years. For safekeeping, you know, since there are possible lots of the monied/power crowd that'd like the entire Sandusky mess to go away. And he'll show up, at the proper time, evidence in hand! Now THAT would make a happy ending for everybody. Well, all the good guys.

    You know, the objective evidence and what's required to get a conviction in a community of interconnected business and political interests, including corruption within both law enforcement and government--those are 2 entirely different things. IF Gricar is/was one of the good guys, he knew that all too well.

    That's the answer to why he didn't prosecute in 1998, IMHO. I know JJ disagrees and that's okay!
    Well, that would be a bit strange. The thing is that:

    A. He didn't back off politically sensitive cases.

    B. It got easier to prosecute, politically, as time went on.

    We are missing something.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?


  11. #24
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    I don't mean "politically" in the formal or usual sense. I mean the ability to get the case tried, and a conviction, is very much influenced by the INFORMAL power structure of an entire community--its business leaders, charitable donors (I repeat myself), elected and appointed politicians.

    You have to look at human behavior within the context of all the social systems. Not just the formal, on-paper rules/laws/procedures.

    I've also noticed that a lot of people get suicided, disappeared, accidental-deathed, etc., when people behind the scenes don't like what's happening. That's what we're not seeing. Things are not nearly as by-the-book as you believe, or present them to be.

    Look around. Where is the actual power in the real world? You cannot solve this with an insistence on what is usually referred to as a "rational" explanation. Because, one real possibility is murder. And murderers just aren't all that rational. Especially those who murder out of passion rather than for money.

    And, BTW, why does JKA insist on referring to Patty F as "the paramour"? Is it a hint maybe that Gricar's ex-wife regarded Patty as an illicit lover of Ray's? (I know the legal use of the term. JKA was around these people all the time. Why didn't she call Patty his girlfriend? I think she's sending a message to look at the feelings Emma had about Patty. And look for an overlapping timeline.

    Might be useful to let it roll around in your head a few weeks, rather than constructing a rationale that rules it out.


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  13. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinktoes View Post
    I don't mean "politically" in the formal or usual sense. I mean the ability to get the case tried, and a conviction, is very much influenced by the INFORMAL power structure of an entire community--its business leaders, charitable donors (I repeat myself), elected and appointed politicians.
    Then you might very well be talking an improper influence. I really do not want to go there.

    Keep something else in mind. RFG not only declined to prosecute, but he declined to investigate further.

    You have to look at human behavior within the context of all the social systems. Not just the formal, on-paper rules/laws/procedures.
    I'm not talking about anything formal. I'm talking about the ability to win the next election.

    I've also noticed that a lot of people get suicided, disappeared, accidental-deathed, etc., when people behind the scenes don't like what's happening. That's what we're not seeing. Things are not nearly as by-the-book as you believe, or present them to be.
    I would not assume that RFG is dead at this point (or alive).

    Look around. Where is the actual power in the real world? You cannot solve this with an insistence on what is usually referred to as a "rational" explanation. Because, one real possibility is murder. And murderers just aren't all that rational. Especially those who murder out of passion rather than for money.
    I would not rule out passion, but I would not rule out money either. I would not rule out RFG's disappearance being connected to Sandusky, at least indirectly.

    And, BTW, why does JKA insist on referring to Patty F as "the paramour"? Is it a hint maybe that Gricar's ex-wife regarded Patty as an illicit lover of Ray's? (I know the legal use of the term. JKA was around these people all the time. Why didn't she call Patty his girlfriend? I think she's sending a message to look at the feelings Emma had about Patty. And look for an overlapping timeline.
    There is about a two to three year gap between #2 and PEF; they were together about three years in 2005 and he separated from #2 in 2000.

    I don't know if #2 and JKA were close. Why the word "paramour" was used is anyone's guess, except JKA's. #2 was gone when PEF became involved.

    I have heard a few versions of the breakup with wife #2, and neither involved PEF. The problems are, none of them can be confirmed, and, even the story RFG told does not make him look particularly good.

    Might be useful to let it roll around in your head a few weeks, rather than constructing a rationale that rules it out.
    I prefer to deal in concrete things, like elections, not practicing law, and when actions were taken. Simply put, the idea that RFG didn't prosecute Sandusky because he was worried about a political backlash does not hold water.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?


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  15. #26
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    JJ: I give up; I must not be explaining this very well. I KNOW what you prefer to deal in. And that's what I was trying to explain: that by restricting one's thinking to the visible influences, you leave out too much info about the context in which human behavior occurs. Including judicial behavior.

    I am, once again, NOT talking about "politics" in terms of backlash, or the ability to win elections. I AM talking about influence of all kinds--the informal power that people "in politics", outside of politics have. And how THAT would affect the ability to bring a case to trial, and obtain a conviction. And to do so with one's and one's family members' personal safety intact.

    And, if you cannot consider all the potential data relevant to the larger social context of successfully trying a case, I think you will leave out some potentially vital clues. If it's not your area of expertise, then it's not. It is mine, but I can't give you a PhD and a lifetime career's worth of education on a subject you aren't adept in.

    It could be vitally important. It could answer the question about Gricar. About Sandusky. Some posters and readers here know that and I hope will pursue it. As I am.

    JKA knew wife #2 pretty well. And, best I can tell now, her use of the word 'paramour' to describe Patty reflects a shared feeling about Patty's "unofficial" presence in Ray's life before he left wife #2.


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  17. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinktoes View Post
    JJ: I give up; I must not be explaining this very well. I KNOW what you prefer to deal in. And that's what I was trying to explain: that by restricting one's thinking to the visible influences, you leave out too much info about the context in which human behavior occurs. Including judicial behavior.
    If you are talking about some greater of influence, you are talking about illegal influence.

    I am, once again, NOT talking about "politics" in terms of backlash, or the ability to win elections. I AM talking about influence of all kinds--the informal power that people "in politics", outside of politics have. And how THAT would affect the ability to bring a case to trial, and obtain a conviction. And to do so with one's and one's family members' personal safety intact.
    I repeat, you are talking about illegal influence and RFG caving into it.

    And, if you cannot consider all the potential data relevant to the larger social context of successfully trying a case, I think you will leave out some potentially vital clues. If it's not your area of expertise, then it's not. It is mine, but I can't give you a PhD and a lifetime career's worth of education on a subject you aren't adept in.
    There is no data to support a shadowy "influence." There are also no specifics.

    There is a point about raw power and safety that argues against this; all the witnesses to the 1998 incident, the victims, the one victim's mother, the police, and apparantly someone in the DA's Office at the time are all there. They were not threatened. The report that they wrote is still there; there does not even seem to have been an effort to eliminate it.

    It could be vitally important. It could answer the question about Gricar. About Sandusky. Some posters and readers here know that and I hope will pursue it. As I am.
    A nebulous statement. Obviously, there was a lot of money associated with Sandusky (via his control of Second Mile). Obviously, that money could influence people. Are you suggesting he used it to influence RFG?

    JKA knew wife #2 pretty well. And, best I can tell now, her use of the word 'paramour' to describe Patty reflects a shared feeling about Patty's "unofficial" presence in Ray's life before he left wife #2.
    I'm not certain about that. There was ever any claim that JKA ever socialized with RFG; she was far from alone in that. The involvement does not "overlap" as you suggested.

    I do note that you used the phrase "he left wife #2." Care to give a reason why he would leave? I'm not saying you are wrong.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?


  18. #28
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    Where did you get that? If, as you have suggested, he didn't prosecute for political reasons, those reasons vanished in 2001. RFG for example, didn't file charges in the Mendez-Vargas case for almost a year and only after a lot of internal debate in the office.

    I'm sorry, but that comment bears no resemblance to reality.



    Except he did have enough to bring charges, and PSU didn't cover that one up (unless you are suggesting that RFG was "in cahoots" with PSU in 1998. Are you?).



    I've ask you for evidence that RFG was the victim of foul play. Your statement does not make it so.

    We have evidence that RFG did not prosecute Sandusky in 1998. We know that there was no new evidence in the case, and one victim available in 1998 was not available in 2011.

    Even if this was foul play, you better start praying that RFG's 1998 was only a colossal lapse of judgment (and it may have been).
    Why would a prayer, now help a declared dead person? There is no threat to RG, he is LEGALLY declared dead. He won't be here to defend himself. Anything said about what he did or didn't do will be total hearsay. Anyone can blame the man and say what they will but the truth is he is not here. It all becomes hearsay at this point in time.
    Truthseeker from day one.


  19. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudbuster05 View Post
    Why would a prayer, now help a declared dead person? There is no threat to RG, he is LEGALLY declared dead. He won't be here to defend himself. Anything said about what he did or didn't do will be total hearsay. Anyone can blame the man and say what they will but the truth is he is not here. It all becomes hearsay at this point in time.
    Well, because, there are far worse things that a colossal lapse of judgment. Some of those things might even produce evidence. As I've said, I'm praying that it was only a colossal lapse of judgment.

    I think the claim that RFG left wife #2 is one of the more interesting aspects. Again, I'm not saying it is inaccurate.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?


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  21. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    Well, because, there are far worse things that a colossal lapse of judgment. Some of those things might even produce evidence. As I've said, I'm praying that it was only a colossal lapse of judgment.

    I think the claim that RFG left wife #2 is one of the more interesting aspects. Again, I'm not saying it is inaccurate.
    What does any of this have to do with wife 2? Can you explain because I have heard nothing about EG being a cause for anything other than Ray and her perhaps had difference and that it was a bad divorce as per the nephew. I took that to mean that Rays assets was divided.
    Truthseeker from day one.


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