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  1. #556
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    joke

    We simply aren't being told the truth. Why would they only test for cocaine? If that is true, it sounds like they are only interested in finding a way to dismiss their liability. When one of your suspects is an ER doctor, you need to check for more than cocaine.

    I'm not saying MG should fire bomb the police station, I am just saying I would completely understand if she did. I don't care if it raises my taxes directly, I think she should sue the SCPD until their eyes bleed, and I usually detest the idea of suing anybody for anything. It's time to occupy the precinct parking lot. These slobs are being paid 100k+ a year to eat McGriddles all day and solve sudoku puzzles, now I know why they have the highest rate of self inflicted gun shots to the head.

    I haven't seen police work this handy since Harvey Keitel masturbated in front of that girl in the movie Bad Lieutenant.
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  2. #557
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    The TRUTH is we may not be getting the truth. IMHO, the possibliltiy there are those subject to be embarrassment increases every day. Need I mention any more than the recent Secret Service scandal.

    The then-police commissioner opined SG may have drowned. Some how her clothes came off??? I forget if he said it was more than one killer? What I do remember is it differed from what the DA said. What I also know is that district attorneys don't jump in and give press releases at those stages of an investigation. They are hiding something.........I can feel it in my bones.

    BTW, love those folks that call for the FBI. You really don't have a clue?

  3. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthspider View Post
    We simply aren't being told the truth. Why would they only test for cocaine? If that is true, it sounds like they are only interested in finding a way to dismiss their liability. When one of your suspects is an ER doctor, you need to check for more than cocaine.

    I'm not saying MG should fire bomb the police station, I am just saying I would completely understand if she did. I don't care if it raises my taxes directly, I think she should sue the SCPD until their eyes bleed, and I usually detest the idea of suing anybody for anything. It's time to occupy the precinct parking lot. These slobs are being paid 100k+ a year to eat McGriddles all day and solve sudoku puzzles, now I know why they have the highest rate of self inflicted gun shots to the head.

    I haven't seen police work this handy since Harvey Keitel masturbated in front of that girl in the movie Bad Lieutenant.
    You have a link that states the remains were only tested for cocaine? First I heard of that. I'm off to get some McGriddles before breakfast ends or I might have to pull........
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  4. #559
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    The foreigner....on another thread...about JB & date...coincidences...

    Quote Originally Posted by Theforeigner View Post
    Here it is, it is post #24. and it was Dr Baden who talked about Shannan's case :

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...en#post7440710


    Yes they CAN find out wheter she drowned or not even if it is only skeleton remains, read Dr. Badens explanation on this + more in this link:

    http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking...eath-1.3388774

    Here is a quote concerning drowning:

    The examination of skeletal human remains found Tuesday near Oak Beach, besides determining whether they belong to a missing Jersey City woman, can also point to the cause of death, an expert said.

    Key forensic clues can survive in bones and teeth even over the 19 months the remains -- if they are Shannan Gilbert's -- would have been exposed to the elements, said Michael Baden, a former New York City medical examiner.

    Police theorize Gilbert drowned in a wetland thicket. Baden said water contains diatoms, a type of phytoplankton that if inhaled, can later be detected in bone marrow.

    "If they are present and they match what's found in the water, that will indicate she was alive and breathing when she went into the water," he said
    .
    hello The Foreigner.
    i have cut and will paste here...what you said on another thread
    about JB....and date coincidences....

    Look at thise dates, pretty amazing if you ask me...cant wait to see if an announcement will be made tomorrow May 1st!?

    May 1st 2010 Shannan Gilberts disappear
    Dec 13, 2010 3 of the Gilgo Beach murder victim was found
    Dec 13, 2011 Shannan Gilbert's body was found
    Dec 14, 2011 JB commited suicide
    May 1st, 2012 Possible official announcement that JB is the LISK

    Could this all be a coincident?
    Sure it could, but maybe not?!


    you left out
    May 1st, 2012 - Shannan Gilbert's family met Medical Examiner in Hauppauge, NY.

    ok....just wanted to add that....
    TKM

  5. #560
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theforeigner View Post
    Here it is, it is post #24. and it was Dr Baden who talked about Shannan's case :

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...en#post7440710


    Yes they CAN find out wheter she drowned or not even if it is only skeleton remains, read Dr. Badens explanation on this + more in this link:

    http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking...eath-1.3388774

    Here is a quote concerning drowning:

    The examination of skeletal human remains found Tuesday near Oak Beach, besides determining whether they belong to a missing Jersey City woman, can also point to the cause of death, an expert said.

    Key forensic clues can survive in bones and teeth even over the 19 months the remains -- if they are Shannan Gilbert's -- would have been exposed to the elements, said Michael Baden, a former New York City medical examiner.

    Police theorize Gilbert drowned in a wetland thicket. Baden said water contains diatoms, a type of phytoplankton that if inhaled, can later be detected in bone marrow.

    "If they are present and they match what's found in the water, that will indicate she was alive and breathing when she went into the water," he said
    .
    The point, I didn't get is, how he distinguishes from diatoma, she got in her lung and which later during the decomposition decomposed with the lung and diatoma sitting in the little puddles around the place, the remains were found and which reached the remains at least in Spring 2011 when the area was a little swampier due to rainfalls. Since in both cases the same body of water plays the main role, how to distinguish that?

    Peter
    Sometimes, being a squirrel can be a real nutjob!

  6. #561
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    Was really disappointed to hear about the news Shannan's death being ruled inconclusive. Nothing really surprises me anymore...I wonder if they tested the bone marrow for diatoms? Couldn't they at the very least determine how long the body was in the water at that location? That'd be a fairly important piece of evidence is it's possible. So two bones were missing from her neck, what do the rest of you think? Is it an indication that she was strangled and/or they missed them in the search? Or perhaps was taken elsewhere for awhile? Another detail--was her body wrapped in burlap or not? I seem to recall that it wasn't.

    PS-I was writing while you posted Peter, very good questions on how the diatoms would enter the bone marrow. How would you distinguish between the two, indeed? Drowning or sitting in the same body of water? Very good question...

  7. #562
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    Quote Originally Posted by alaskanblue View Post
    Was really disappointed to hear about the news Shannan's death being ruled inconclusive. Nothing really surprises me anymore...I wonder if they tested the bone marrow for diatoms? Couldn't they at the very least determine how long the body was in the water at that location? That'd be a fairly important piece of evidence is it's possible. So two bones were missing from her neck, what do the rest of you think? Is it an indication that she was strangled and/or they missed them in the search? Or perhaps was taken elsewhere for awhile? Another detail--was her body wrapped in burlap or not? I seem to recall that it wasn't.

    MOO
    Personally I don't think the missing bones mean much. First of all I haven't read whether those were the only bones missing or were they the only bones that the lawyer mentioned. Second, what would the theory be? that the SK waited until the body completely decomposed and then went back and removed just those two bones. That seems unlikely to me. JMHO of course.

    I would think not. If she were wrapped in burlap they would know as soon as they found her that there was foul play involved.

  8. #563
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    linkage

    http://www.news12.com/articleDetail....news_type=news

    "Lawyer: Shannan Gilbert's autopsy report inconclusive

    (05/01/12) OAK BEACH - Two years ago to the day after Shannan Gilbert went missing in Oak Beach, her mother and sisters met with the Suffolk County Medical Examiner.

    A lawyer for Gilbert's mother says the results of the autopsy report they received today are inconclusive. Originally, police had said they believed Gilbert had drowned in the swampy area of Oak Beach. However, the attorney says the report contains no evidence of that.

    The report shows that Gilbert had no traces of cocaine in her system, although the Gilberts' lawyer says that was the only drug her remains were tested for.

    Gilbert's mother, Mari, said after the meeting that she's "more frustrated and angry than ever." She was hoping for something more substantial, but instead, she says she feels betrayed by investigators."

  9. #564
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    Quote Originally Posted by alaskanblue View Post
    Was really disappointed to hear about the news Shannan's death being ruled inconclusive. Nothing really surprises me anymore...I wonder if they tested the bone marrow for diatoms? Couldn't they at the very least determine how long the body was in the water at that location? That'd be a fairly important piece of evidence is it's possible. So two bones were missing from her neck, what do the rest of you think? Is it an indication that she was strangled and/or they missed them in the search? Or perhaps was taken elsewhere for awhile? Another detail--was her body wrapped in burlap or not? I seem to recall that it wasn't.

    PS-I was writing while you posted Peter, very good questions on how the diatoms would enter the bone marrow. How would you distinguish between the two, indeed? Drowning or sitting in the same body of water? Very good question...
    Thanks! But thinking twice of it, how would the bone come into the bone marrow of the victim anyway. Someone drowns, life ends in a few minutes. No way any biological process can bring diatoms into a bone, which is closed at this moment. The marrow is inside. My guess is, the doctor said two things, one about bone marrow and one about diatoms to a journalist and said journalist mixed it together, not bothering about understanding anything of it.

    The process has to be )in my opinion):
    - a person drowns
    Which technically can happen in two ways, wet drowning and dry drowning. Wet drowning, of course, means, water or any other liquid, comes into the lung and interrupts the normal breathing. Which can take several minutes.
    Dry drowning, as sometimes also seen in diving accidents, means, there is a cramp preventing the water from coming into the lungs. But the cramp of the bronchi also prevents air from coming in. So it's rather a kind of asphyxiation. Then, obviously, an ME wouldn't find water in the lungs at all.

    - the person lies in the water
    but since the person doesn't breath anymore, there is no way, additional diatoms come into the lungs. However, additional diatoms can be found all over the outside of the bidy.

    - the water dries out
    We talk here about a rather wet area, but latest in the relative hot summer months, the water is reduced to puddles. Means, all diatoms on the bodies outside, dry out and die. The diatoms inside won't make it also, but they will hang on a little longer.

    - the person decomposes
    After some times, all soft tissue is gone. That includes the lungs. Remains of the dried out diatoms in them will maybe, depending on the position of the body, settle down on bones either in the back, front, or side of the rib cage. Technically, they would follow the pull of the gravity and just fall down, what bones ever are under them. Since bones at this time may split open, I can't say, it's entirely impossible, if the body for example lays on the back, that some few dead diatoms also fall inside a split bone.
    However, remember, the whole outside of the body was covered in the very same diatoms as those inside the lungs. They also dried out and dies. Now, with the tissue gone, they also settle down - on every bone, they fall on. So there si in my opinion, no reasonable way, to distinguish between a diatom inhaled during the process of drowning and one sticking to the skin of the chest since that event. And after those summer months, the diatoms are dead anyway and by that subject to decomposition as well.

    - The water returns
    The winter comes, not much snow there, more rain on the East Coast. Rain water of course, can also hold diatoms from other sources. Since the estimation in which body of water a person drowned, is basically mapping the mix of different types of diatoms (kind of a diatom mix finger print of a body of water), this will shift the picture when rain falls on the remains. It's like diatoms from maybe pretty far away visit and stay on the remains.
    Then, in Spring, the area gets a little flooded. More rain, the puddles grow again. The remains get wet again, this time from a mix containing diatom population from the puddles around and more rainwater. Now "diatoms" is a generic term. Technically, depending on which body of water, it can be a dozen or more different family members. Since the first diatoms were inhaled by the victims, this community of diatoms has lost some members and won some new ones by the means of rain and flooding. So at this time, the diatom mix on the remains and in the nearby puddle will differ because the diatoms in the water are alive and become more, the balance will shift again over the next months due to Darwinistic processes. But all of that won't happen on the human remains nearby. Because the second layer of diatoms has settled down there and will die as soon as the water goes back in summer.

    - the water goes away
    Summer again ... remains fall dry, the next year of diatoms dies on all bones.

    - Fall again
    More rain, more diatoms from other sources

    - Winter
    LE finally finds the remains. In the meantime, two seasons worth of diatoms settled down on the body, the second years directly on the bones.

    Lets face this, if I would be a juror and Dr. Baden would tell me, he determined in this case drowning, he would better deliver some good explaining how that is supposed to work before I buy into it. And keep in mind, I actually think, she drowned or died there due to the circumstances (I wouldn't exclude heart attack after drug abuse that night either).

    Peter
    Sometimes, being a squirrel can be a real nutjob!

  10. #565
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    what's interesting to me is they still did not say if they were releasing the remains to the family...if not, are they still working on the autopsy???


  11. #566
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    what's really going on

    I think the FBI are running this case, and unlike the SCPD, they have no problem lying and hiding information from the family of the victims until the case is closed. I think the fbi had the remains then gave them back to the SCPD to give back to the family, which is why it took so long.
    I think the missing finger bones and neck bones are probably in the possession of the FBI or tucked into SK's tighty whiteys.


    http://www.newsday.com/long-island/s...ined-1.3692324

    "Tuesday, he said the family was surprised by some of the details they learned during their meeting with Suffolk Medical Examiner Yvonne Milewski, including that Gilbert's skeletal remains were intact except for tiny bones missing from her fingers and toes, and two key bones from her neck.

    "Now that's significant," said Ray, adding that the missing bones from Gilbert's neck would have helped determine if she had been strangled."

  12. #567
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrsPC View Post
    what's interesting to me is they still did not say if they were releasing the remains to the family...if not, are they still working on the autopsy???
    responding to my own post...I see now with a link that Truthspider posted in another thread shows that the family wants more hair & bone marrow testing done

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7863008&postcount=152"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Victim - Megan Waterman[/ame]

  13. #568
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrsPC View Post
    what's interesting to me is they still did not say if they were releasing the remains to the family...if not, are they still working on the autopsy???
    If so, someone better call the Guiness Book ... that has to be the slowest autopsy eeeeveeeeerr!

    Peter
    Sometimes, being a squirrel can be a real nutjob!

  14. #569
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    Peter - I posted just above you -- looks like the family still wants more testing done.

  15. #570
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcgrumpy View Post
    Personally I don't think the missing bones mean much. First of all I haven't read whether those were the only bones missing or were they the only bones that the lawyer mentioned. Second, what would the theory be? that the SK waited until the body completely decomposed and then went back and removed just those two bones. That seems unlikely to me. JMHO of course.

    I would think not. If she were wrapped in burlap they would know as soon as they found her that there was foul play involved.
    dcgrumpy-very good point on the bones, I doubt the SK came back and removed them. I wonder if those were the only missing ones too. And yes, that makes perfect sense, if she was wrapped in burlap there wouldn't be any talk of an accident by LE. I'm still very much on the fence whether or not Shannan was a victim of the GB4 killer. (not sold on the Manorville killer being responsible for the Gilgo Beach murders as well) I think there is some possibility of her doing some "paradoxical undressing" which would explain why her pants were not with her body. Here's a good link on it:

    http://www.survivaltopics.com/paradoxical-undressing/

    Peter--I'm wasn't totally clear on how many ways diatoms would get into the bone marrow. I googled "how diatoms enter blood marrow" and came up with this link:

    http://www.forensicindia.com/icfmt/w...ublication.htm

    From what I can determine from the article, it appears they enter the blood marrow via the rupturing of the lung alveoli during drowning but not after the victim has died. So you're correct (I just re-read your great post). So no respiration, no diatoms in the marrow. Good point on the different sources of water coming into the marsh, as a result there wouldn't be any way to match the diatom mix.

    MOO

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