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  1. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reader View Post
    For 6 out of the 10 boys listed, it is stated the offenses occurred at the Sandusky residence...

    To me, there is just no way Dottie did not know what was happening with these kids...unless she is deaf, blind or criminally stupid....just no way.
    Or out or in a distant part of the house where the sound wouldn't travel.

    I'm in Devil's Advocate mode.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?


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  3. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    Or out or in a distant part of the house where the sound wouldn't travel.

    I'm in Devil's Advocate mode.

    Me too....

    If she made herself that distant when a child was visiting and she knew JS was in the basement with him, that had to be on purpose....

    And by her own statement, she claims all the boys that visited were treated as family and did not stay in the basement and ate with the family...

    That can not be true and at the same time accept that the boys' statements are true....


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  5. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reader View Post
    Me too....

    If she made herself that distant when a child was visiting and she knew JS was in the basement with him, that had to be on purpose....

    And by her own statement, she claims all the boys that visited were treated as family and did not stay in the basement and ate with the family...

    That can not be true and at the same time accept that the boys' statements are true....
    Or, Dottie just didn't "enjoy," I hate using that word in this context, playing with the kids. One question would be was, in non sexual situations, Dottie around the children?


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?


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  7. #289
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    Are things heating up for Sandusky?

    Prosecutors: Sandusky molested 8 boys on Penn State campus


    Friday, March 02, 2012
    By Paula Reed Ward, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
    Prosecutors claim that eight of the 10 boys former Penn State University assistant football coach Jerry Sandusky is accused of molesting were sexually assaulted on campus.

    In a bill of particulars dated Feb. 21 but posted Thursday in the Centre County Court of Common Pleas, the Pennsylvania attorney general claims five boys were molested in the Lasch Football Building. Abuse also occurred in the East Area Locker Room, Holuba Hall, the university pool and in the dormitories, according to the filing.

    The ages of the 10 boys ranged from 8 to 17, according to the paperwork. In some cases, however, Senior Deputy Attorney General Jonelle Eshbach wrote that the exact ages of the children at the time of the alleged conduct were unknown.

    In addition, in those cases, she wrote that the exact dates and locations of the assaults were unknown, "because there were numerous offenses over the course of several years. "The victim, a child at the time of the offenses, is unable to provide exact times and dates."

    The filing also alleges that six boys were molested at Mr. Sandusky's State College home.

    Mr. Sandusky is accused of molesting one boy, identified as Victim No. 4 in the grand jury presentment, between 1996 and 2000 at a number of venues, including the former coach's home, on campus, at Toftrees Golf Resort, as well as on trips to Florida and Texas in late 1998 and early 1999.

    Mr. Sandusky's defense attorney, Joseph Amendola, had requested the prosecution file a bill of particulars to provide his with more detailed description of the charges.

    Paula Reed Ward: pward@post-gazette.com or 412-263-2620.


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  9. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    Or, Dottie just didn't "enjoy," I hate using that word in this context, playing with the kids. One question would be was, in non sexual situations, Dottie around the children?
    That is one question that I think everyone would really like to have an answer to...how much was Dottie involved with these 2nd Mile children who came to the home? She has denied they ate and slept in the basement and said they were treated like family. One child that we know of stated he knew Dottie was in the home upstairs when he was screaming for help while JS attacked him. So was she also there during other attacks?

    I'm wondering if Dottie will testify at the trial? I'm thinking JS will even if against his lawyer's advice. He seems to think he can convince anybody that all these kids are liars. It would be interesting to find out who Amendola has lined up to testify for the defense.


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  11. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reader View Post
    That is one question that I think everyone would really like to have an answer to...how much was Dottie involved with these 2nd Mile children who came to the home? She has denied they ate and slept in the basement and said they were treated like family. One child that we know of stated he knew Dottie was in the home upstairs when he was screaming for help while JS attacked him. So was she also there during other attacks?
    Okay, and I'm playing Devil's Advocate, how would the victim "know" Dottie was in the house, unless she walked in on them? Further, kids, when they are playing often scream (well, the do in my neighborhood). She could have heard something and thought it was that.

    I'm wondering if Dottie will testify at the trial? I'm thinking JS will even if against his lawyer's advice. He seems to think he can convince anybody that all these kids are liars.
    She might, but I'm betting that, after the interview, Sandusky won't.

    It would be interesting to find out who Amendola has lined up to testify for the defense.
    The 2002 victim, Victim 2, could be called, and Amendola claims he has him. That could refute McQueary.

    My guess is that Amendola is basically going try aggressive cross examination. Victims 1 and 6 are the least vulnerable in that regard. In regard to Victim 6, I would hope the prosecution would not focus on the "I was wrong" comment, and focuses on the admission to the action.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?


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  13. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    Okay, and I'm playing Devil's Advocate, how would the victim "know" Dottie was in the house, unless she walked in on them? Further, kids, when they are playing often scream (well, the do in my neighborhood). She could have heard something and thought it was that.



    She might, but I'm betting that, after the interview, Sandusky won't.



    The 2002 victim, Victim 2, could be called, and Amendola claims he has him. That could refute McQueary.

    My guess is that Amendola is basically going try aggressive cross examination. Victims 1 and 6 are the least vulnerable in that regard. In regard to Victim 6, I would hope the prosecution would not focus on the "I was wrong" comment, and focuses on the admission to the action.
    Following the BBMs:

    1/Maybe he met her in the house before they went down to the basement? had dinner all together as she said, or she could have brought them food; she could have called down and said goodnite, I'm going to bed now...and I think you can tell the difference between a 'playing' and a 'hurting/fearful' scream....

    2/BTW, whatever happened to their interview with Oprah or whoever Amendola talked about?

    3/If victim 2 is known to the defense, won't they have to give this information to the state eventually...IOW, isn't there a defense discovery rule also?

    4/Agree...he will try to flay them for sure but hopefully they are being well prepared for that and will be able to withstand it..


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  15. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reader View Post
    Following the BBMs:

    1/Maybe he met her in the house before they went down to the basement? had dinner all together as she said, or she could have brought them food; she could have called down and said goodnite, I'm going to bed now...
    And she could have been out in the meantime. Unless she walked in on them, no.

    and I think you can tell the difference between a 'playing' and a 'hurting/fearful' scream....
    Not the children in my neighborhood. I heard some of my neighbors' children/grandchildren screaming bloody murder. I went to the door and saw that they were playing.

    2/BTW, whatever happened to their interview with Oprah or whoever Amendola talked about?
    I doubt that this will happen; the Costas interview was a disaster.

    3/If victim 2 is known to the defense, won't they have to give this information to the state eventually...IOW, isn't there a defense discovery rule also?
    I'm not certain. In any event "Victim 2" is sworn, say's "It was me and nothing happened." That's a possibility.

    4/Agree...he will try to flay them for sure but hopefully they are being well prepared for that and will be able to withstand it..
    The strongest charges are those for Victims 1 and 6, IMO, because there are independent witnesses that could not gain financially from testifying. I want to see Amendola's attempt to convince a jury on those.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?


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  17. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    And she could have been out in the meantime. Unless she walked in on them, no.


    Not the children in my neighborhood. I heard some of my neighbors' children/grandchildren screaming bloody murder. I went to the door and saw that they were playing.

    I doubt that this will happen; the Costas interview was a disaster.



    I'm not certain. In any event "Victim 2" is sworn, say's "It was me and nothing happened." That's a possibility.

    The strongest charges are those for Victims 1 and 6, IMO, because there are independent witnesses that could not gain financially from testifying. I want to see Amendola's attempt to convince a jury on those.
    BBM 1 - we'll just have to agree to disagree...I believe the child that he knew she was upstairs and he screamed for help from her...

    BBM 2 - obviously you are not a mother...

    BBM 3 - is this information in an article or verified somewhere?


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  19. #295
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    Sandusky's lawyer seeks more details from Pa. AG

    STATE COLLEGE, Pa. Jerry Sandusky's lawyer is asking a judge to force state prosecutors to turn over more detailed information about the child sex abuse allegations against the former Penn State defensive coordinator.

    Joe Amendola said Friday that he needs more detailed information about times and places where prosecutors say crimes occurred as well as the names of people who were there or nearby.

    Read more here: http://www.centredaily.com/2012/03/0...#storylink=cpy


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  21. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    Not the children in my neighborhood. I heard some of my neighbors' children/grandchildren screaming bloody murder. I went to the door and saw that they were playing.
    But you went to check, right? Why didn't Dottie?

    Also, it is actually natural for children to raise their voices outside while playing with other children. That is the appropriate place for a child to be shouting or hollering. Downstairs in the basement alone with an old man? Not so much. As a mother, if I heard my child screaming in a basement, even if they were with a family member, I would go immediately and check it out.

    The only parallel to this I can think of in my own experience was once when we were at my mother's house, and my son was playing alone outside on an old pine stump. We heard him start to scream and ignored it at first because we thought he was "just playing." Turned out there was a yellow jacket's nest in the stump and he was being stung multiple times. In fact, when we realized what was happening to him, we all screamed because he ran into the house with more hornets following him!

    After that I was much more tuned in to whatever sound my kids were making, even outside. Children usually scream for a reason, and their sounds are different when they are in distress. As a mother of many children, Dottie had to know that.

    What if the Sandusky's dog had bitten the child? What if he had burned himself on the fireplace? How could Dottie justify not checking on a screaming child?

    To me it's clear that at some point Dottie knew what was going on. I think she had trained herself to ignore Jerry's activities. The only way to explain her behavior is as that of an enabler to a pedophile. Why would she do that? So she could preserve her standing in the community, house, lifestyle, and money.

    We talk about "grooming" in terms of pedophiles. Imagine the grooming of a young bride who was probably naive like other members of her generation, and who was taught not to not ask questions that would upset the apple cart or make Jerry mad. She learned to have tunnel vision and tune out even the cries of children. I pity her and at the same time loathe her.

    Just another paid-off bystander trained to look the other way.

    I'm the proud mother of a new attorney!
    It's better to know some of the questions than all of the answers. ~ James Thurber
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing ~ Edmund Burke
    Why shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. ~ Mark Twain


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  23. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reader View Post
    BBM 1 - we'll just have to agree to disagree...I believe the child that he knew she was upstairs and he screamed for help from her...
    Disagreeing isn't the important thing; proving it is.

    BBM 2 - obviously you are not a mother...
    No, but if I small children screaming, I usually check.

    BBM 3 - is this information in an article or verified somewhere?
    That Amendola said it, yes. We'll see if he delivers.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?


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  25. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThoughtFox View Post
    But you went to check, right? Why didn't Dottie?
    She knew that there was adult present.

    Also, it is actually natural for children to raise their voices outside while playing with other children. That is the appropriate place for a child to be shouting or hollering. Downstairs in the basement alone with an old man? Not so much. As a mother, if I heard my child screaming in a basement, even if they were with a family member, I would go immediately and check it out.

    The only parallel to this I can think of in my own experience was once when we were at my mother's house, and my son was playing alone outside on an old pine stump. We heard him start to scream and ignored it at first because we thought he was "just playing." Turned out there was a yellow jacket's nest in the stump and he was being stung multiple times. In fact, when we realized what was happening to him, we all screamed because he ran into the house with more hornets following him!
    These were not her children. She doesn't know their patterns.

    I was the caregiver for my father for more than two decades. I could tell how he was feeling based on his breathing, while he was sleeping. I couldn't do that with anyone else.

    And, it can't be proven that Dottie was there.
    Last edited by J. J. in Phila; 03-04-2012 at 01:49 AM.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?


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  27. #299
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    This is another article about the federal investigation but it had a few points that made it a little clearer to me:

    Sandusky federal investigation may have different focus
    From Sara Ganim, for CNN

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/02/justic...html?hpt=ju_c2

    "The subpoena appears to be exploring when or whether there was any institutional awareness of Sandusky's alleged conduct at Penn State," said James W. Spertus, a Los Angeles lawyer and former federal prosecutor. "If, for example, there were private efforts by board members to settle claims before the matter became public, or there were reports to the board about the allegations, it could change the nature of the investigation."

    Each year, educational institutions such as Penn State receive million of dollars in federal money earmarked for certain areas such as defense or medical research and educational programs.

    If that money was used for other purposes, that could be a federal crime, Reinhart said.

    "I'm sure they get all sorts of federal funding that flows into large state university's like that," he said. "As part of that sort of grant or funding, you have to certify those funds will only be used for the certain things. That could be why they'd be looking into interactions with Second Mile and Penn State."

    Fraud could be a possibility if false statements were made to an agency such as the NCAA, Reinhart said.

    Something like, "We don't have any unauthorized persons using the training facilities."

    Penn State has said that, as part of his retirement agreement, Sandusky kept an office and a key to the Penn State locker room. Sandusky left his coaching job as Paterno's defensive coordinator after the 1999 season. He was asked, after the 2002 incident, not to bring children with him to the facilities, but university officials testified before a grand jury that the ban was unenforceable.

    If Penn State didn't disclose that to an agency who asked for such information, that could constitute fraud.

    "The NCAA might say, 'We would never have allowed them to go to a bowl ... or get certain funding,'" Reinhart said.

    "If they somehow diverted funds to keep victims, or others in the know quiet," Reinhart said, "they might be trying to figure out if that happened. ... That would explain why they'd ask if trustees have ever made payments on behalf of university."
    More at link....


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  29. #300
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    I'll say this much in defense of Dottie Sandusky: Jerry Sandusky was probably very skilled in keeping secrets from women. He's been working on the skill since childhood. He was an only child. Although he doesn't come out and directly say it his autobiography, his mother was overbearing. Or perhaps I should say every boy who is an only child believes his mother to be overbearing. In constructing a profile of someone who is likely to be into the occcult, being male and an only child tops the list (for example: Aliester Crowly, Jimmy Page). Occult literally means "hidden from view." So I'm not surprised Sandsusky had a basement in his house, even as an adult, as his special place apart from his wife. Keep in mind, Sandusky's nickname for his wife is "Sarge." He perceives her as an oppressive authority figure. Not suprisingly, viewing women as he does, Sandusky has never been sexually attracted to them.

    Part of Sandusky's sick genius was his ability to pick the right victims to groom. Whom did he select? From what we can tell, he selected "at risk" boys. I take that to mean sons of single mothers. Boys starving for male attention and boys, like the young Sandusky, more likely to keep secrets from their mothers. Mothers were Sandusky's rivals. Eventually, it was a mother of one of the victims who took him down (after another mother in 98 tried and failed).

    So I can believe Dottie was in the dark about a lot. I'll reserve judgement until more information comes out in the trials. As for Joe Paterno and the Penn State coaching staff, what was wrong with them? Did they not find it bizarre that the team's defensive coordinator was bringing boys to bowl games in 98 and 99? Considering that Sandusky "retired" after the 99 season when Paterno told him he was spending too much time with his charity, I think I can guess the answer to my question.


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