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  1. #1
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    LE Suggests there May Be 3 Serial Killers - What do you think and why?

    http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?se...and&id=8360554

    Discuss the possibility of 3 seriel killers here, please.

    Thanks,

    Salem

    ETA: from link above:
    "There could be one, there could be more killers," Dormer said. "We don't know."

    Seems the article was revised because yesterday, I'm sure it said maybe 3 serial killers.

  2. #2
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    Salem, I think there is only one killer since the Manorville victims also had parts left in the OB area. I just think the killer has evolved over time. My guess today would be carnival worker after reading Seaslugs thread about the it being the possible source of the burlap. My opinion changes daily, lol.

    IF it turns out there are more than one killer, then my guess would be organized crime 'fixers'. Same organization...different 'fixers' as one may have moved up the totum pole and a new one was brought in.

    MOO

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  3. #3
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    Could LE be saying there may be several killers to aggravate the SK? Don't they like to get credit for their handiwork?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbird View Post
    Could LE be saying there may be several killers to aggravate the SK? Don't they like to get credit for their handiwork?
    Yep. I'm sure Dormer is advised by BSU and basically has his statements scripted for press conferences. For all we know the sk probably has responded to the SCPD via mail and it just hasn't been revealed to the public.

    What bothers me most is that SCPD swept these dismemberments under the rug for 14 years. I've had several well seasoned police officers (childhood friends of my older siblings) tell me that if you are prominent in society you get attention. Nobody cares about hookers and drug addicts. So as long as hookers and addicts are being murdered an dismembered...oh well. Had the daughter of a doctor, politician, nurse or a city worker been found in such a manner then that would be a whole 'nother animal. Well, I think they are going to be rattled enough when this sk decides to up the ante and graduate his victims from the dredges of society to middle and upper class. SCPD is gonna wish they would have morally investigated the issue concerning the very first victim found. It seems to me that the sk would love to make a fool out of them as the pressure builds from the community for his capture. This guy has been at this for at least 15 years and hasn't had any recognition for a full year yet. SCPD had better utilize the public more because old dude may go through another 15 years if he is ever captured.

  5. #5
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    Back in May, Spota indicated we could be looking at as many as 3 killers. ( link ) Now that we have more info wrt the victims, it seems quite possible. For starters, lets consider the various victims that were found. They would break out as follows:

    The GB4 (Barthelemy, Waterman, Costello, & Brainard-Barnes)

    These victims are connected by not only their trade & use of craigslist but also their murder (strangulation) and body disposition (stripped of clothing/jewelry & wrapped in burlap). For later reference, I'm going to refer to this guy as "The Bagger," since his disposal MO involves bagging his victims. There are questions wrt rate of decomp and some have felt he also skins his victims. While possible, it is, imo, doubtful, due to the amount of work required. I would say that, if we are looking at advanced decomp, then he may use a chemical, such as caustic soda or something of that nature. That this individual has taunted the families indicates a clearly sadistic angle... one that allows him to prolong the vicitimization beyond the murders. That he called Melissa's sister for several weeks leads me to wonder if he may be keeping his victims alive for some protracted period. If so, this would be congruent with his sadistic nature. While he may be keeping their clothes or jewelry as trophies, he could simply be discarding them to hinder identification.

    Mannorville (Taylor & Jane Doe 6)

    These victims are connected in that portions of their remains were found in Mannorville within a mile of each other, along Halsey-Manor Road in 2000 and 2003, respectively ( map ). The missing portions were found nearly a decade later along Ocean Parkway. Both victims had been decapitated, and some of their limbs and/or extremities removed. ( link ) In addition to the two women, two men were also found within the same time frame. Some believe these men were murdered by the same individual who murdered the two women. Though, based upon location and body disposition, I'm thinking, not. Either way, I did include them on the map since their murders remain unsolved. ( map ) The Manorville killer has been refered to as the Manorville Butcher. ( link ) Will keep that name for now. His MO is dismembering his victims. He also went to great, though, rather, crude lengths to remove identifying marks (i.e., trying to obliterate the tattoo). It is unclear when he dumped the Ocean Parkway remains.

    Asian Male CD

    This 17-23 year old victim was described as having been violently murdered between 2000-2005. ( link ) This murder could very well have been a "date" gone bad. The degree of violence, the fact that his clothes remained, etcetera, strongly points to that. In other words, this would be a random murder as opposed to one in a set of serial kills.

    Jane Doe 9

    The DNA from the skull found on the Nassau County section of Ocean Parkway matched that of legs that had washed ashore in 1996. ( link ) I am not inclined to think Manorville, or GB4, for that matter. In fact, this seems more like the Mamaroneck & Cold Spring Harbor murders. ( link ) Imo, the guy killing those women, while also dismembering them, used a boat to dispose of their remains.

    Baby Doe & Jane Doe 10

    The DNA of baby doe matched that of the west most remains found in the Nassau County section of Ocean Parkway. ( link ) Notably, the baby was wrapped in a blanket. ( link ) When a child is wrapped in a blanket, that generally indicates relative involvement... usually the mother. Since however, the other remains indicate a female relation, quite possibly the mother, the blanket is an anomally. The other anomally is that LE states that the child's death was not suspicious. In other words, they do not appear to believe she was murdered. ( link ) In this case, at best, we know that at least an adult female, likely the mother, and a toddler went missing. Does anyone know if Kibalo ( link ) has been ruled out?



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  6. #6
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    My personal feeling is that Manorville and the GB4 are the work of different killers. I'm not convinced, however, that the GB4 are not related to the AC4.
    People seldom do what they believe in. They do what is convenient, then repent. ~ Bob Dylan

  7. #7
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    Could be as many as SIX Killers

    I took a step back from this case for a few weeks in an attempt to return with a clear mind and a fresh set of eyes this morning. The very first thing that is obvious to me now is that there does not exist a single shred of evidence to support the single serial killer theory.

    If you think that it is not possible for multiple, unrelated killers to use the same dumping grounds... well think again. This is more common than you may realize. A perfect local example is Pelham Bay Park. You can read here all about how multiple killers used that location as a dumping ground for years.

    Another thing that was obvious to me is that there is absolutely no proof that the person or people who discarded the remains is the same person who killed them. We make this assumption because it is probably likely that the killer(s) would work alone yet we truly have no proof. Therefore, it has not been ruled-out that there may be multiple killers yet maybe only one or two "disposers".

    So with my new fresh of eyes, I can tell you what I do see and what I do not see in regards to the actual victims.

    Let's first start with the obvious;

    KILLER #1 The Original GB4

    The burlap suggests that these four woman were most likely killed and dumped along Ocean Parkway by the same killer. It is impossible to determine whether or not the killer and the person who did the dumping are one in the same (since the woman were murdered elsewhere). Yet most people assume that it's all the work of one person. One thing is sure, other than the location of where the bodies were found, there is nothing about the GB4's cases that are at all similar to the other cases. They are extremely unique.

    Now the next obvious...

    KILLER #2 The Manorville Butcher

    It's safe to assume that JT is the victim of the same killer as Jane Doe #6. Both had remains found both in Manorville and in Gilgo. There were remains of two men found in the same set of woods in Manorville yet the police fail to mention those UID victims in relation to this case. This is most likely because Manorville is another known dumping ground that has been used by multiple killers throughout the years (like Gilgo & Pelham Bay Park). If you do not accept that Manorville is another one of those universal dumping grounds then how can you explain the lack of attention the two male victims received (and how they have not been linked to this case?). There is no indication that the two Manorville cases are in any way linked to any of the other cases.

    Now this is where it starts to get complicated;

    KILLER #3 Jane Doe Bag of Bones & her Non-Caucasian 16 to 32 month daughter
    We know for sure that the Jane Doe bag of bones found just East of Zach's Bay along the dirt utility road is related to the non-Caucasian toddler found near Gilgo. What we do not know is 1) whether or not the toddler was murdered or if she dies of natural causes and 2) whether or not the person who killed the toddler's mother also killed the toddler. For all we know, the mother could have been responsible for the toddler's death (accidental or intentional) and the toddler's father could have killed the toddler's mother out of rage for what she had let happen. We may never know the answer to this mystery. Also, since they were able to determine that the toddler is non-Caucasian, why haven't the police released info on whether or not they were able to determine if the mother was non-Caucasian too? Is this just assumed? Nothing about this case shows any signs of being related to the others.

    KILLER #4 Davis Park 1996 Legs with Scars Woman

    They found her legs in a plastic bag washed up on the beach at Davis Park on Fire Island in 1996. During the search near Jones Beach the Nassau County PD found her skull. It was there so long that it was reported that a small tree or a tree's roots was growing out of it. Where the heck is the rest of her remains? Unlike the other bodies, her skull was found far from the roadside in the middle of a nature preserve where many people go hiking. Her case is years apart from all of the others too. Nothing about her case shows any sign of being related to the others.

    Killer #5 The Cross-Dressing Asian Man

    The only male victim. His cause of death was determined to be much different than any of the other victims (and described as "brutal"). His wearing woman's clothing makes everyone assume that he was a cross-dresser (was he the only victim who was clothed too??). His rotted missing teeth have added to everyone's imagination (some think he could have been a crack user). The truth is, we don't know what caused him to lose some of his teeth just like we do not know if he was wearing woman's clothing by choice or if his body was dressed that way by the killer before or after his death. Dormer went as far as to suggest that this man was most likely a gay prostitute. It's all speculation (and poor judgement in my opinion) to make these assumptions without a shred of evidence. Once again, we have a case with absolutely zero evidence that links him to any of the other cases.

    Killer #6 if you do not buy the "drowning theory"

    I know it's tough to accept that there isn't a shred of evidence that links SG's case to any of the others. I also know that it's tough to accept the theory that SG drowned. If SG was indeed murdered, then most likely we have a local OB resident or her driver MP to blame. Either way, there is not a single piece of evidence to link SG's death to any of the others. So if SG was murdered, we then most likely have a sixth killer. Once again, not a single shred of evidence to link SG's death to the others.

    All of this leaves us with more questions than answers;

    Is Killer #1 through 5 all the same killer who has some how "evolved" over time and SG died accidentally as Dormer attempted to educate/enlighten us? (this is SCPD's last official theory)

    Is Killer #2, 3 & 4 all the same killer who chose to dismember his victims?

    Does that make it three killers by leaving Killer #1 & 5 as the same killer and #6 being the third?

    Of course, all of this speculation is assuming that whoever dumped the bodies also killed them. If we make this assumption then we can conclude that there are no more than six killers. If we cannot make this assumption then there could be as many as eleven.

    If there are six killers, then technically speaking we have actually two serial killers (Killer #1 & Killer #2) and both of them are targeting prostitutes. This plays back into my theory how this case is going to go cold again very quickly. The Manorville butcher case (killer #2) continues to be a cold case because nobody seems to care about the two victims to put any pressure on the investigators to solve the cases. The GB4 case will most likely follow in the same footsteps as the AC serial killer case where time just flies by with no new leads. Chances are that (like AC) the killer came to town, killed the four girls and moved on to another town where he probably is doing the same. With no more bodies showing up and no more prostitutes missing from the Long Island area the pressure is off of the investigators because the public doesn't feel threatened.

    So with my clear fresh set of eyes, the only thing that is obvious when looking at this case is that there is absolutely no evidence to support the one serial killer theory. Yes, serial killers do evolve. And yes, there have been some remarkably talented serial killers who utilized multiple MO's in order to confuse law enforcement.

    But until some evidence actually links two or more of the six killers, the investigators need to set the record straight and dismiss Dormer's one-shoe-fits-all fantasy theory. I've said this before and I'll say it again; other than identifying the identity of some of the victims, giving us composite drawings of what the UID victims might have look like and ruling out potential suspects like CPH, JB & MP, the investigators have made absolutely no progress in this case. They are no closer to finding the killers than they were when the legs washed up on Davis Park Beach or when they found parts of the Manorville victims.

    ZERO PROGRESS.
    Last edited by Seaslug44; 01-14-2012 at 12:13 PM.

  8. #8
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    I'm not buying the 1 killer theory. Every gut instinct I have tells me our guy either couldn't bring himself to decapitate, or doesn't care enough about these women to bother. Manorville is not LISK, imo.

    As for the others...I could be persuaded to consider the Manorville killer for those, or someone else entirely.
    People seldom do what they believe in. They do what is convenient, then repent. ~ Bob Dylan

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain_Kat View Post
    I'm not buying the 1 killer theory. Every gut instinct I have tells me our guy either couldn't bring himself to decapitate, or doesn't care enough about these women to bother. Manorville is not LISK, imo.

    As for the others...I could be persuaded to consider the Manorville killer for those, or someone else entirely.
    Wondering if politics played a part in announcing the one killer theory. It is forgiveable to have a lone psycho on the loose. But having multiple killers out there suggests an environment that cultivates killers and allows them to operate with ease (and without fear of getting caught).

    No comish wants for it to known that killers can operate so easily on his watch.

  10. #10
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    Sea slug - I love your assessment of the murders, well done. I have only on comment to make and that's about the Asian male victim. You stated that his murder was "brutal". With that being said, I can definitley see a cross dressing prostitute. If his teeth indicate crack use, then there's a good chance he was prostituting to support his habit. Even so, getting picked up as a woman and then finding out he's a man could cause (IMO) such a brutal attack. A lot of people would get freaked out and upset if it happened to them. So I find the idea put forth by others very plausible. Imagine your a killer of woman, it's the most important part of your fantasy. You have everything planned out meticulously. And then at the final step, when all you need is your victim. You end up picking a male by mistake. Overkill occurs. Who knows? I'm just throwing it out there. Keep up the amazing work everyone.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottyboy View Post
    Sea slug - I love your assessment of the murders, well done. I have only on comment to make and that's about the Asian male victim. You stated that his murder was "brutal". With that being said, I can definitley see a cross dressing prostitute. If his teeth indicate crack use, then there's a good chance he was prostituting to support his habit. Even so, getting picked up as a woman and then finding out he's a man could cause (IMO) such a brutal attack. A lot of people would get freaked out and upset if it happened to them. So I find the idea put forth by others very plausible. Imagine your a killer of woman, it's the most important part of your fantasy. You have everything planned out meticulously. And then at the final step, when all you need is your victim. You end up picking a male by mistake. Overkill occurs. Who knows? I'm just throwing it out there. Keep up the amazing work everyone.
    I agree that anything is possible. Was also thinking how being gay is a disgrace within many Asian families with conservative/traditional beliefs. He could have been killed and dressed in woman's clothing by his own family as a message of how humiliated he made them feel. Also, his teeth could have been broken during the assault.

    So who knows right?

  12. #12
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    I was on the fence about a single vs. multiple killers until November, 2011 - right before Shannon Gilbert's body was found. I distinctly remember reading about a "new search" for SG based on "a tip" that she was "probably dead and dumped along a road". I remember thinking then that the SK had contacted LE. I think LE has info we are not privy to, and that is why even they have now said a single killer is involved. Who else would have left the "new" info that led to the discovery of SG's body? I also do not believe SG drowned.

  13. #13
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    I'm still not convinced that the GB4 killer and the AC killer aren't one and the same. In fact, I'm becoming more and more convinced that they are.

    JMO
    People seldom do what they believe in. They do what is convenient, then repent. ~ Bob Dylan

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain_Kat View Post
    I'm still not convinced that the GB4 killer and the AC killer aren't one and the same. In fact, I'm becoming more and more convinced that they are.

    JMO
    Very possible. And now that killer moved on to Detroit or some place else. He'll probably make his way back through the Carolinas and through Florida again too.

  15. #15
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    We can now add a 4th victim to the list for killer number four (The Manorville Butcher).

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