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  1. #1
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    Angry Orthodox Circumcision Ritual Leads to Baby's Death

    A Bris is a common event, yet this particular ritual- used in the most orthodox communities- caused the death of this baby.

    In my opinion, it's disturbing and disgusting. I hold tight to my traditions, but this is beyond a religious thing. SICK

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/08/ny...on-ritual.html

  2. #2
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    Disgusting

  3. #3
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    Etilema is offline Being kind to the cruel results in being cruel to the kind.
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    This particular practice is not universal. Using a different method does not invalidate the bris. I have been blessed with several sons who had Orthodox brises, but none involved this procedure. Some groups hold tight to their specific traditions, however.

    Honestly, it only very rarely results in a health problem or death--but why take that chance when it is so very preventable? (Like wearing a bike helmet--it is rarely necessary, but when it is, it can save a life.)

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Etilema View Post
    This particular practice is not universal. Using a different method does not invalidate the bris. I have been blessed with several sons who had Orthodox brises, but none involved this procedure. Some groups hold tight to their specific traditions, however.

    Honestly, it only very rarely results in a health problem or death--but why take that chance when it is so very preventable? (Like wearing a bike helmet--it is rarely necessary, but when it is, it can save a life.)
    I happen to agree with you- but it's not the first time a mohel has spread herpes to a baby! It's either in North Jersey or in Brooklyn where 3 babies died for the same reason. I'm waiting to hear if it's the same guy who has been banned from performing them...

    I know it's not necessary to do it this way but try telling that to the ultra-orthodox! They're afraid banning the practice will bring it underground.

  5. #5
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    My grandmother's first son died from a circumcision as well. FROM GANGRENE! He was 6 months old... When she had my dad she did it again! (we are not Jewish so it's really a cosmetic choice) No way I would have! *not after losing a baby that way, but she felt like my father would NOT get the same infection.She was right. He was fine.
    I used to work for a Dr. that worked with babies on medicaid. He did them in his office for $80.00 cash. With a plasti-bell, not one of my favorite jobs! I was out of there in less than a year.

    NEVER ONCE thought about transmitting herpes~ geez!
    ~ my opinion only

  6. #6
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    Wow. Wish I had not read about this.

    Unless I am misunderstanding, an adult male of purported "orthodox religion" uses his mouth to suck the blood from a baby boy's penis, after circumcision.

    No words.

    I'll try: sounds vampiric, blood fantasy, child molestation, child abuse, pedophilic, severe privacy invasion on a vulnerable innocent, I am out of words.

    I honor most religions that I've studied or read about...moreso, everyone's spirituality (or not) and their right to express it, but GEESH. Really?

    Someone please tell me the "right and OK" with this. Much appreciated.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cazzie View Post
    Wow. Wish I had not read about this.

    Unless I am misunderstanding, an adult male of purported "orthodox religion" uses his mouth to suck the blood from a baby boy's penis, after circumcision.

    No words.

    I'll try: sounds vampiric, blood fantasy, child molestation, child abuse, pedophilic, severe privacy invasion on a vulnerable innocent, I am out of words.

    I honor most religions that I've studied or read about...moreso, everyone's spirituality (or not) and their right to express it, but GEESH. Really?

    Someone please tell me the "right and OK" with this. Much appreciated.
    I agree with you this seem's so wrong, I respect peoples religions but this seems wrong.
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  8. #8
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    Yes, you understood correctly. He uses his mouth.
    I don't care how religious or what religion it is, it's disgusting.

  9. #9
    Etilema's Avatar
    Etilema is offline Being kind to the cruel results in being cruel to the kind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cazzie View Post
    Wow. Wish I had not read about this.

    Unless I am misunderstanding, an adult male of purported "orthodox religion" uses his mouth to suck the blood from a baby boy's penis, after circumcision.

    No words.

    I'll try: sounds vampiric, blood fantasy, child molestation, child abuse, pedophilic, severe privacy invasion on a vulnerable innocent, I am out of words.

    I honor most religions that I've studied or read about...moreso, everyone's spirituality (or not) and their right to express it, but GEESH. Really?

    Someone please tell me the "right and OK" with this. Much appreciated.
    I am an observant Jew, but I agree that it would be an unpleasant practice, even if it didn't cause disease and death, which makes it an unacceptable practice, in my opinion. I think in previous times it might have been a good choice, because of the lack of better hygiene methods. Even now, one of the first things most people do if they cut their finger is to suck on it!

    So I'm saying that it wouldn't have seemed nearly so creepy in former times, when it may have imparted a benefit over alternatives. The problem in an orthodox religion is that practices appropriate to certain milieux get ossified and brought along through changes in time and become a hill to die on, which they never, ever should have been.

    In the Jewish religion, LIFE holds the highest value in almost every case, and there is no way this practice should be taking precedence over the risk to newborns. Just my passionately-felt opinion.

  10. #10
    Etilema's Avatar
    Etilema is offline Being kind to the cruel results in being cruel to the kind.
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    I also would like to clarify that the blood-sucking, itself, is extremely quick (less time than someone would spend sucking on a cut finger), and perfunctory. And the blood is spat out, not swallowed. So it's not a sexual thing or a vampiric thing.

    However, considering it has been implicated in cases of herpes infection in neonates, including leading to brain damage and several deaths, I think it should definitely be discontinued.


  11. #11
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    This 'ritual' is far more than a ritual! As a nurse, I can say the risk for infection is so high that it is ridiculous. I find it hard to believe a parent would allow this, much less the law!

  12. #12
    Etilema's Avatar
    Etilema is offline Being kind to the cruel results in being cruel to the kind.
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    FYI, here is a little info about the suction procedure, whether by mouth or through a tube:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brit_mi...tzah_technique

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by gngr~snap View Post
    My grandmother's first son died from a circumcision as well. FROM GANGRENE! He was 6 months old... When she had my dad she did it again! (we are not Jewish so it's really a cosmetic choice) No way I would have! *not after losing a baby that way, but she felt like my father would NOT get the same infection.She was right. He was fine.
    I used to work for a Dr. that worked with babies on medicaid. He did them in his office for $80.00 cash. With a plasti-bell, not one of my favorite jobs! I was out of there in less than a year.

    NEVER ONCE thought about transmitting herpes~ geez!

    (above bbm)
    Just want to add my 2 cents' worth: Circumcision's are not necessarily done for cosmetic reasons. My husband was not circumcised until he was 28, due to chronic and recurring infections. Once the extra skin was gone, so were the infections.

  14. #14
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    Okay, I'm confused... how long after the circumcision did this baby die? I tried to go back to the article but it asked for a log in.

    Babies are at risk of contracting herpes in the birth canal, too. Has it been proven, beyond all other risks, that it was the mohel who infected them?

    I'm appalled by the practice, too, but no more so than other types of religious rituals... yet, for grief's sake, have a dang health check up to make certain your not spreading disease! Is that so difficult?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Etilema View Post
    The problem in an orthodox religion is that practices appropriate to certain milieux get ossified and brought along through changes in time and become a hill to die on, which they never, ever should have been.

    In the Jewish religion, LIFE holds the highest value in almost every case, and there is no way this practice should be taking precedence over the risk to newborns. Just my passionately-felt opinion.
    Beautifully stated. I agree 100%. I grew up in (and still live in) a community that is half Jewish and half Catholic. While everyone is aware, tolerant, and respectful of each others' practices and traditions, this one has turned everyone's stomach. We had no idea this went on.

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