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  1. #556
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    Quote Originally Posted by katydid23 View Post
    Anytime you allow someone's sexual history to be reviewed/disclosed in a rape case, you are opening a huge can of worms. Statutory rape is not ONLY about virginity, imo. It is also about undue pressure being applied by someone older and more experienced. If a 14 or 15 yr old is dating a boy her own age, then she can deal with his urgent requests for sex in an equitable way. Maybe she will agree to it, maybe not, but it will be her own decision, most likely. But if she is seeing a 20 yr old and she is 14, then it would be undue pressure, imo.
    And yet... when I was 17, my girlfriends my age went through all kinds of pressure and high school politics from their age cohort boyfriends to consent to various sexual acts, even when they really didn't want to.

    My "age inappropriate" relationship with B (who was 44 years old) did not involve pressuring me for sex *at all* Not for sex, not for any sexual act that I was not eager to try out on my own.

    My 17 year old girlfriends were under far more pressure than I was to consent to various sexual acts. Those boys didn't hesitate to bring social pressure into the equation, such as threatening to break up with her, threatening to not go to a specific dance or prom with her, threatening to badmouth her to his friends, etc. Basically, they threatened my girlfriends with public humiliation, at an age when many people are exquisitely sensitive to humiliation.

    I saw all that before I started going out with B and I cringed. Those relationships seemed abusive to me (I was a staunch second wave feminist when it happened, before the term "second wave" was ever used).

    When I went out with B, there was none of that. He waited for me to initiate anything and if I didn't feel comfortable, there was no pouting, whining or threats involved. And certainly no threats of public humiliation!

    Yeah, I imagine that part of the reason my relationship was so different from what my girlfriends went through was because B was old enough to realise that no man ever died of blue balls (as boys my age, in that long ago day, claimed). He was even mature enough to know that his sexual arousal was his problem, not mine.

    I honestly believe that the issue that should be under question isn't so much the relative ages but what constitutes consent and what constitutes undue pressure.

    All that being said, I am not saying it is ever okay for a teacher, therapist, doctor, clergy, etc, to initiate a relationship with someone under their professional authority. Part of the process of teaching, therapy, etc, is for the student/client/patient/whatever to deliberately lower their normal barriers and to place greater trust in the person who is in authority.


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  3. #557
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrainneDhu View Post
    And yet... when I was 17, my girlfriends my age went through all kinds of pressure and high school politics from their age cohort boyfriends to consent to various sexual acts, even when they really didn't want to.

    My "age inappropriate" relationship with B (who was 44 years old) did not involve pressuring me for sex *at all* Not for sex, not for any sexual act that I was not eager to try out on my own.

    My 17 year old girlfriends were under far more pressure than I was to consent to various sexual acts. Those boys didn't hesitate to bring social pressure into the equation, such as threatening to break up with her, threatening to not go to a specific dance or prom with her, threatening to badmouth her to his friends, etc. Basically, they threatened my girlfriends with public humiliation, at an age when many people are exquisitely sensitive to humiliation.

    I saw all that before I started going out with B and I cringed. Those relationships seemed abusive to me (I was a staunch second wave feminist when it happened, before the term "second wave" was ever used).

    When I went out with B, there was none of that. He waited for me to initiate anything and if I didn't feel comfortable, there was no pouting, whining or threats involved. And certainly no threats of public humiliation!

    Yeah, I imagine that part of the reason my relationship was so different from what my girlfriends went through was because B was old enough to realise that no man ever died of blue balls (as boys my age, in that long ago day, claimed). He was even mature enough to know that his sexual arousal was his problem, not mine.

    I honestly believe that the issue that should be under question isn't so much the relative ages but what constitutes consent and what constitutes undue pressure.

    All that being said, I am not saying it is ever okay for a teacher, therapist, doctor, clergy, etc, to initiate a relationship with someone under their professional authority. Part of the process of teaching, therapy, etc, is for the student/client/patient/whatever to deliberately lower their normal barriers and to place greater trust in the person who is in authority.
    I guess we are coming from opposite places all together. I was 6 when my 19 yr old babysitter began raping me. So I have a real problem with much older authority figures initiating any kind of sexual situations.


    eta: When I was older and boys my age wanted sex, I felt no pressure at all from them. If I wanted to, I did. If not, I didn't. But they had no leverage like my babysitter did. Of course it was the late 60's in the Bay Area, so there was no kind of bad social pressure either. PEACE/LOVE and all that,
    “Every day that they don’t find something is good for me.“ Billie Dunn


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  5. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by katydid23 View Post
    I guess we are coming from opposite places all together. I was 6 when my 19 yr old babysitter began raping me. So I have a real problem with much older authority figures initiating any kind of sexual situations.


    eta: When I was older and boys my age wanted sex, I felt no pressure at all from them. If I wanted to, I did. If not, I didn't. But they had no leverage like my babysitter did. Of course it was the late 60's in the Bay Area, so there was no kind of bad social pressure either. PEACE/LOVE and all that,
    I'm so sorry you experienced such evil! (((hugs)))
    IMO


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  7. #559
    Cubby is offline 50K reward, Bob Harrod-Missing: Call Det. Radomski 714-993-8176
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    Thank you for sharing what you shared above Katydid23. I know that took a lot of courage.

    I appreciate everything everyone has brought to the discussion here. Even when we sometimes have very different views and opinions.
    ~JMO~

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  9. #560
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    Quote Originally Posted by katydid23 View Post
    I guess we are coming from opposite places all together. I was 6 when my 19 yr old babysitter began raping me. So I have a real problem with much older authority figures initiating any kind of sexual situations.


    eta: When I was older and boys my age wanted sex, I felt no pressure at all from them. If I wanted to, I did. If not, I didn't. But they had no leverage like my babysitter did. Of course it was the late 60's in the Bay Area, so there was no kind of bad social pressure either. PEACE/LOVE and all that,
    I was 12 when my junior high school guidance counsellor raped me. My mother was being treated for cancer and was seriously ill, my grades had dropped and I was supposed to be getting help from him to keep up in school.

    He told me that I was so bad, so evil, that I was forcing him to do it. And that if I told anyone, the shock of finding out how bad a girl I was would kill my mother.

    That doesn't sound like a realistic threat to an adult but to my 12 year old self with my mother down to 80 pounds from cancer treatment, it seemed very likely to me.

    But I survived and so did my mother.

    I think it sensitised me to social pressure, though. I found what my girlfriends went through with their (middle 1970s) boyfriends distasteful in the extreme.

    I knew I could say no or call it off entirely at any time with B and he would respect me. He was a good man and I feel grateful to have had him in my life.


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  11. #561
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    katydid23, Cubby, GrainneDhu

    {{{{Hugs to you}}}}

    I grew up very innocent in a small town (like Melissa Jenkins) and was never exposed to what you went through. (Not that it wasn't there, but I was lucky, I guess.) I'm just glad you all made it through and are with us now!


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  13. #562
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    We have some amazing, strong women posting here, and some really great, intelligent posts from all sides. It's really a privilege to post when the conversation is this good!
    “Peace is not the product of terror or fear. Peace is not the silence of cemeteries. Peace is not the silent result of violent repression. Peace is the generous, tranquil contribution of all to the good of all." -Abp Oscar Romero


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  15. #563
    Quote Originally Posted by GrainneDhu View Post
    I agree with you on the commodification of virginity.

    However, I am hard pressed to think of any other crime where the victim has to prove they did not consent to being victimised.

    If my house is robbed, LE doesn't ask me to prove I didn't want it.

    If my car is stolen, LE doesn't ask me to prove I didn't want it.

    If I own a store and catch someone shoplifting my goods, LE doesn't ask me to prove I didn't want them stolen.

    And even though the majority of Gary Ridgway and Bob Pickton's victims were prostitutes, I'm absolutely sure none of them wanted to be raped and killed by those men.
    I disagree with the fictional inability to consent. Was there a fictional inability to consent (i.e., statutory rape) at play with Gary Ridgway and Bob Pickton? I'm not really familiar with them, but it looks like they are serial killers. I would guess forcible rape occurred in there somewhere. I am not sure how those cases apply.
    If I can stop one heart from breaking,
    I shall not live in vain;
    If I can ease one life the aching,
    Or cool one pain,
    Or help one fainting robin
    Unto his nest again,
    I shall not live in vain.
    ~Emily Dickinson~


  16. #564
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    hollyblue is offline It may be the cock that crows, but it is the hen that lays the eggs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cubby View Post
    Again, you are putting words into my mouth. Show me where I said we should forgive everyone with addictive personalities because 'it is not their fault'.

    Before I became an addict, I could not understand why a person could not stop, nor could I understand why they may be unable to seek help. I understand now. I do not expect anyone who has not suffered the disease of addiction to understand that, and I am not going to spend any more time trying to explain it. It's not explainable to anyone who does not suffer from the disease of addiction or mental illness themself.
    I agree with you Cubby ^^^^, but she has to pay for the repercussions of her bad decisions and actions under that addiction. I also believe that she was not blind-sighted to her wrongs...and she knew, at some point during her running, she had erred....and kept running. Whether or not she should be incarcerated vs probation and counseling is hard for me to judge at this point in the game because we don't know all the details; the kidnapping is serious, and if it can be proven she had sexual relations with a minor while she was teacher, I say yes to it. Hopefully the addiction was just to alcohol and not minors. Addiction, bipolar, or a combination, etc ....she knew what she was doing was wrong....and ran for that very reason. I can have sympathy or be empathetic towards LM and her dealing with one or all demons she was facing, but her choices, as an adult, hurt many others. And while many of us had relationships with older partners at 17 and still maintain we were the initial instigators, if we truly look at it now, it was prolly more rebellion, more about reaching out to our allusions of adulthood than a mature adult relationship...and our partners were well aware of it... and maybe being the minors, we were vunerable enough to believe we were the sly cunning tricksters. We were minors and there is a reason for it...not yet the full age of responsiblity... because of vunerability and the lack of life experiences. It is sad that LM had no one to recognize her problems and to try to help her with them, but then again, maybe they did and she was in denial and/or just plain refused. All pure speculation because we don't know her drinking problems were indeed an addiction, but it was a way to numb some emotion...in my belief, a long and deep one. JMO Wish I could have said all in less words.


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  18. #565
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldpizza View Post
    I really can't believe the "debate" that this case has sparked, but I do find it interesting. It shows what a diverse group we have here at WS. It also is a glimpse in society as a whole.

    I still wonder whom or what got the ball rolling in the charges in the first place? Was it the school? Was it D's parents? Or was there another person involved? (quite frankly I don't think there is)

    I do believe there is a possibility of depression here. Does it excuse the behavior? hmmmm probably not, but does it justify a $500,000 bond? Personally I think not.

    I feel LM's bond should be lowered to the point she can get out and get healthy. She has no priors that we have found. If healthy she has the opportunity to change her life in a positive way and face her charges.

    Now, if she indeed through Illinois Law kidnapped and (cough) sexually assaulted D I feel the charges need to be lessened if at all possible.

    That's just my stance, ducking now from the tomatoes, I'll make spaghetti.
    No tomatoes and set a plate for me...please.

    It may be she is a "runner". IMO


  19. #566
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    Quote Originally Posted by southern_comfort View Post
    My short answer is that I don't think the government should have any say in determining the best or right course for a young person's life, wellbeing and future. It's a parent/guardian's job to mold a child in terms of behavior, expectations, and goals. Also, I don't assume that an age-disparate relationship is bad.
    We are getting off topic, but wanted to ask: And what if that parent/guardian has poor choices or knowledge and molds the child the same? Why do we have child protective services, or planned parenthodd, etc? How many cases of a young teen or pre-teen do we see following in the mother's footsteps because the mother didn't choose to or doesn't have a clue in raising children properly to reach for positive goals?


  20. #567
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    D had just turned 17 in December of 2011. If LM and D were having a relationship in the spring of 2011 or the first few months of the fall semester of 2011, D would have been 16. Not sure if that changes anything legal-wise, but just wanted to point that out.
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. ~ Aristotle

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  22. #568
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    Quote Originally Posted by SurfieTX View Post
    D had just turned 17 in December of 2011. If LM and D were having a relationship in the spring of 2011 or the first few months of the fall semester of 2011, D would have been 16. Not sure if that changes anything legal-wise, but just wanted to point that out.
    If DM's information is good it started in December, apparently a little before her birthday
    Police said May had started a sexual relationship with the victim while she was teaching her at an Aurora high school when the girl was just 16.
    ...
    She began teaching the student in September 2011, police said, and the relationship turned sexual in December.
    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1qbiZx965


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  24. #569
    Quote Originally Posted by Donjeta View Post
    If DM's information is good it started in December, apparently a little before her birthday


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1qbiZx965
    Yes.... she is in deep now.
    If I can stop one heart from breaking,
    I shall not live in vain;
    If I can ease one life the aching,
    Or cool one pain,
    Or help one fainting robin
    Unto his nest again,
    I shall not live in vain.
    ~Emily Dickinson~


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  26. #570
    Quote Originally Posted by hollyblue View Post
    We are getting off topic, but wanted to ask: And what if that parent/guardian has poor choices or knowledge and molds the child the same? Why do we have child protective services, or planned parenthodd, etc? How many cases of a young teen or pre-teen do we see following in the mother's footsteps because the mother didn't choose to or doesn't have a clue in raising children properly to reach for positive goals?
    Throwing the other party in jail on a bogus rape charge does nothing to teach the younger person about the consequences of his/her own actions or to help them learn to set positive goals.

    It is way OT, but I have big issues with both of those organizations you mentioned. Too far OT to even get into here.
    If I can stop one heart from breaking,
    I shall not live in vain;
    If I can ease one life the aching,
    Or cool one pain,
    Or help one fainting robin
    Unto his nest again,
    I shall not live in vain.
    ~Emily Dickinson~


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