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Thread: FL - 17-yo Teen Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #5

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horace Finklestein View Post
    That is not evidence that GZ started the altercation. All of those things could have happened and TM could still have started the fight. None of the facts we know of would preclude that possibility. The screams are not known to be from TM as of yet, and GZ sustained injuries. I would add that you're still getting facts wrong, as LE never ever told GZ not to follow TM.
    I never said LE told GZ to not follow TM. I said the 911 operator told him not to and that Neighborhood Watch guidelines also indicate that.

    Seeing as you are unable to provide evidence for your argument that TM started the altercation, I will ask this: if all of the facts of the case remained the same except that TM was a woman, would you still believe TM to be the aggressor? What if TM were a 17 year-old Caucasian kid?
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  3. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belinda View Post
    I can't think of how he landed in this position unless he was shot in the back while running away. Wonder why the autopsy hasn't been released? I find that suspicious. There is something that they don't want getting out there. IMO
    Very suspicious that the autopsy hasn't been released. Parents may have been told where Travon was shot, but were they told what the point of entry was, anterior or posterior?

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  5. #53
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    Has the HOA president made any statement?

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  7. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by LambChop View Post
    I think 46 complaint calls to LE over such a short period of time gives us an idea of what GZ's motivation was.
    What motive? That he tried to prevent crimes rather than turning a blind eye to them as others do... Heck, I'd hate to calculate how many times I got on the phone with the police each evening.
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    rossva is offline George Zimmerman: Innocent until proven guilty.
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    Despite the frequency of his calls to the police, Zimmerman had only become a member of the neighborhood watch in September 2011. In fact, Twin Lakes’ neighborhood watch itself did not exist before then, according to Wendy Dorival, volunteer coordinator for the Sanford Police Department.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...abuse-911.html




    Quote Originally Posted by beach View Post
    How long had he been a neighborhood watchman? Maybe that is what is being referenced.

    If it had been since 2009, then that would make sense.
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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhorse View Post
    We don't in fact know the HOA even has written rules for their watch program? And even if they do they could be very poorly written they may make no mention of forbidding the carrying of a firearm while on patrol... Just sayin'

    However, if what the Chief of SP says is true this gives Mr. Zimmerman much more latitude as a private citizen. As he would not be bound by any such rules of the Neighborhood watch...

    Nonetheless, I agree he should announced who he was and why he was seeking to speak with Mr. Martin. However we don't in fact know that he didn't do that just before the face to face confrontation...

    There is just way too much mystery surrounding this incident and little to no facts available to know what really happened. I've said this over and over again, I think in the end we're going to be faced with the sad reality, that this was a tragedy cultivated by missteps and errors on both individuals part... Each thinking the other was out to get them and that lead to many mistakes. But that's what happens when we teach people to be overly suspicious and paranoid.
    They do have rules and guidelines which were provided to them by the police department. GZ is the one who called LE to set up the NWP in his neighborhood. As just a "private citizen" GZ might not know the rules, however he set it up and attended the classes prior to the NWP coming to the neighborhood so he was quite aware of what he was doing when his disregarded LE's request that he did not have to follow. GZ then mislead the dispatcher by saying okay. Had the dispatcher known GZ was intending on following TM he would have never let GZ hang up that phone because of the risk factor and safety issue. Had the dispatcher known GZ had a gun I'm am sure he would have given GZ a direct order to stand down and wait until LE arrived and the dispatcher would have made sure GZ stayed put by not hanging up with GZ. jmo
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  13. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhorse View Post
    What motive? That he tried to prevent crimes rather than turning a blind eye to them as others do... Heck, I'd hate to calculate how many times I got on the phone with the police each evening.
    Reporting kids playing in the street is a crime? IDK about that.

    JMHO

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    I don't personally think that being a member of neighborhood watch conveys any extra authority, but I think that maybe that is not a universal belief. Many posters have at least implied, that Zimmerman did have , if not authority, then a level of legitimacy that Trayvon did not. That Trayvon should have acted humble and friendly to the stranger following him. We don't even know that he didn't. Some posters have said that Zimmerman's membership in the Neighborhood Watch conferred upon him some sort of duty even. Jmo of course.

    Also, imagine these two scenarios:
    1. A largish man regularly walks the neighborhood, looking at people's homes and yards, noting open windows and garage doors. He even follows people. He is felt to be performing a service, not casing homes, despite the recent rash of burglaries.
    2. A young man walks the same neighorhood, dressed casually, on a public street. He is found suspicious.

    The only difference I can see i can see is that person 1 is a member of the neighborhood watch. He has the authority, or at least the legitimacy conferred upon him by the community. He is seen as "patrolling" not casing the joint.

    If being a member of N.W. confers no legitimacy then Trayvon Martin owed George Zimmerman the response and reaction of any child being followed by an armed stranger. Imho. If my children ever find themselves in that position I hope they attempt to keep themselves safe by any means necessary. Politeness be damned. MOO

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  17. #59
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    I'm bringing a quote from Richard Hornsby"s post on the previous thread because it states exactly what I feel about this case.
    "In this case, the most crucial piece of evidence that is missing is the circumstances under which Zimmerman became physically engaged with Trayvon. If Trayvon simply swung at him, deadly force would not be justified."
    "But if, say, Trayvon jumped him and somehow got on top of him and started beating on him, Zimmerman's use of deadly force would be reasonable if he was on the ground - even under the old law, because once you are in a defenseless position you can no longer retreat."
    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7719306&postcount=1195"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - FL - 17-yo Teen Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #4[/ame]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rougelatete View Post
    I never said LE told GZ to not follow TM. I said the 911 operator told him not to and that Neighborhood Watch guidelines also indicate that.

    Seeing as you are unable to provide evidence for your argument that TM started the altercation, I will ask this: if all of the facts of the case remained the same except that TM was a woman, would you still believe TM to be the aggressor? What if TM were a 17 year-old Caucasian kid?
    The 911 operator is LE and he did NOT tell GZ not to follow TM. You are also unable to provide proof that GZ started the physical altercation. I'd feel exactly the same way if TM was a woman or a white person. I do not think GZ would randomly decide to kill anyone if he wasn't in fear for his life. I'm happy to say race and gender don't factor into my thinking on this issue. Plenty of white kids and girls start fights too.
    Justice for GEORGE!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RANCH View Post
    I wonder what the penalty is for breaking a neighborhood watch rule? Jail time or ?
    Typically depending upon the nature of the violation it could be temporary suspension all the way up to complete dismissal... The board of the HOA would determine the appropriate disciplinary action.

    However, we don't even know if they had a true Watch program? It may have been one in 'appearance only' which means they likely didn't even have any written rules.
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  23. #62
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    http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-mar...2#.T29zjtU_LQ0

    "I think when the other 911 tapes are released, and the other evidence comes out, I think it will show clearly that George Zimmerman was acting in self defense,'' Oliver said. "The question is: how far did he pursue? Who made the initial contact? What started the confrontation in the first place? The fact that the investigation so far has come out the way it has -- because of Sanford's history -- I find it hard to believe that the Sanford Police Department wouldn't have George in jail now if they had one ... piece [of evidence] to support that fact. George Zimmerman is not in jail because ... they don't have the evidence to arrest him."
    Are we missing something? I thought all of the 911 tapes have already been made public...
    #ConvictZimmerman

    AFTER A TRIAL, OF COURSE

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  25. #63
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    There's also a 47 page doc

    with all of his contacts back to 2004. He really was a time bomb-from the first call on this log where he was chasing someone in his car. IMO, once he moved in to the complex where the shooting occurred he then became fixated on crime occurring there and his belief that the crimes were being committed by black males. He then began seeing black male youth as suspicious and interpreting whatever they were doing in a suspicious light and warning others about them

    And they were the only people he warned others about.

    Quote:
    This afternoon six of the calls made by George Zimmerman were released by theSeminole County Sheriff's Office.

    In four of the recordings Zimmerman called police to report "suspicious" persons — all of whom were black — in or near the Retreat at Twin Lakes neighborhood.
    http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...-office-report

    Quote:
    The white neighborhood watch volunteer in Florida whose fatal shooting of an unarmed black teen has sparked outrage appeared to be fixated on young black males, according to a report in The Miami Herald. ..According to the Herald, Zimmerman would often go door-to-door in the neighborhood, warning residents to be careful of young black males. The news organization also reports Zimmerman was energetic in his efforts to protect the neighborhood, and that he contacted police 46 times since Jan. 1, 2011, to report disturbances, break-ins and other incident.
    http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/311...n-called-cops-


    http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigati...allHistory.pdf






    Quote Originally Posted by LolaMoon08 View Post
    His 911 transcripts.

    http://marinadedave.com/journal/2012...on-martin.html

    It is my opinion that George Zimmerman stalked/looked for trouble for years around the entire area of Sanford, Florida. IMO, I am surprised that this didn't happen sooner.



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  27. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhorse View Post
    What motive? That he tried to prevent crimes rather than turning a blind eye to them as others do... Heck, I'd hate to calculate how many times I got on the phone with the police each evening.
    Calls such as someone left their window open, kids playing in the street, suspicious people walking in the neighborhood, etc. Some were good calls, most were not. Evidently everything was suspicious to him. If the calls were credible there is nothing wrong with calling them in. Some of his neighbors supported his calls, other's felt he was too much. Maybe the neighbor who was "airing" out their home by opening a window felt he was intruding when he called it in. Who knows. It's just 46 calls in such a short time seems excessive and maybe he was just a little too into the "protect and serve" thing. But that is just my opinion.
    A lie will go round the world before the truth gets its pants on - Charles Spurgeon

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  29. #65
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    [Nonetheless, I agree he should announced who he was and why he was seeking to speak with Mr. Martin. However we don't in fact know that he didn't do that just before the face to face confrontation...
    He did however overlook other, earlier, logical opportunities to do so. Moo
    Last edited by Salem; 03-25-2012 at 03:43 PM. Reason: fix quote

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  31. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belinda View Post
    I can't think of how he landed in this position unless he was shot in the back while running away. Wonder why the autopsy hasn't been released? I find that suspicious. There is something that they don't want getting out there. IMO
    Me too, Belinda. I didn't want to say it, but I keep going over and over this, and I can find no way for TM to have landed face down with his hands under him.

    If GZ shot TM while TM was on top and TM fell forward, then GZ would have had to move him, to get out from under him. That all makes sense. But if TM was using his hands in anyway to control, hit, choke, whatever, when GZ moved to get out from under, at least one arm would have been out to the side - not underneath. And GZ would have had TM's blood on him. There has been no mention of that either - which indicates that GZ was not in real close proximity to TM. So what does that mean?

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  33. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhorse View Post
    Typically depending upon the nature of the violation it could be temporary suspension all the way up to complete dismissal... The board of the HOA would determine the appropriate disciplinary action.

    However, we don't even know if they had a true Watch program? It may have been one in 'appearance only' which means they likely didn't even have any written rules.
    http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...ood-watch-nabj

    According to reports by National Public Radio and CNN, Parks told the NABJ members his firm has obtained documentation establishing that Zimmerman was a neighborhood watch captain.

    Wendy Dorival, who organizes Neighborhood Watch for the Sanford Police Department, told the Sentinel in a recent interview that Zimmerman was chosen as a watch coordinator by his neighbors.

    Zimmerman raised no red flags during an organizational meeting Sept. 22, and no one had complained about him before the shooting, Dorival said.
    Even though people have said they complained to both the HOA and SPD about Zimmerman's aggressiveness...she still made the last statement.

    Anyway, it appears that there was a Neighborhood Watch Program, but it was not registered nationally. For all intents and purposes, Zimmerman was recognized as a neighborhood watchman.
    #ConvictZimmerman

    AFTER A TRIAL, OF COURSE

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  35. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boytwnmom View Post
    with all of his contacts back to 2004. He really was a time bomb-from the first call on this log where he was chasing someone in his car. IMO, once he moved in to the complex where the shooting occurred he then became fixated on crime occurring there and his belief that the crimes were being committed by black males. He then began seeing black male youth as suspicious and interpreting whatever they were doing in a suspicious light and warning others about them





    http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigati...allHistory.pdf
    There were 8 break ins done mostly by black kids in the neighborhood.

    http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...artins-shooter
    Justice for GEORGE!

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  37. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horace Finklestein View Post
    The 911 operator is LE and he did NOT tell GZ not to follow TM. You are also unable to provide proof that GZ started the physical altercation. I'd feel exactly the same way if TM was a woman or a white person. I do not think GZ would randomly decide to kill anyone if he wasn't in fear for his life. I'm happy to say race and gender don't factor into my thinking on this issue. Plenty of white kids and girls start fights too.
    911 Operator: "Are you following him?"

    GZ: "Yep."

    911 Operator: "Okay, we don't need you to do that."

    How is that not telling GZ to stop following TM??

    Also, in no way do Florida's 911 dispatchers enforce the law. See certification requirements and expectation of duties here:
    http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/.../0401.465.html
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  39. #70
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    I'm bringing a quote from Richard Hornsby"s post on the previous thread because it states exactly what I feel about this case.

    Quote:
    "In this case, the most crucial piece of evidence that is missing is the circumstances under which Zimmerman became physically engaged with Trayvon. If Trayvon simply swung at him, deadly force would not be justified."

    Quote:
    "But if, say, Trayvon jumped him and somehow got on top of him and started beating on him, Zimmerman's use of deadly force would be reasonable if he was on the ground - even under the old law, because once you are in a defenseless position you can no longer retreat."

    Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - FL - 17-yo Teen Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #4
    Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - FL - 17-yo Teen Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #4

    <<<<<>>>>>>>



    Witness: Martin attacked Zimmerman

    Updated: Friday, 23 Mar 2012, 6:19 PM EDT
    Published : Friday, 23 Mar 2012, 5:47 PM EDT



    ORLANDO - A witness we haven't heard from before paints a much different picture than we've seen so far of what happened the night 17-year-old Trayvon Martin was shot and killed.

    The night of that shooting, police say there was a witness who saw it all.

    Our sister station, FOX 35 in Orlando, has spoken to that witness.

    What Sanford Police investigators have in the folder, they put together on the killing of Trayvon Martin few know about.

    The file now sits in the hands of the state attorney. Now that file is just weeks away from being opened to a grand jury.

    It shows more now about why police believed that night that George Zimmerman shouldn't have gone to jail.

    Zimmerman called 911 and told dispatchers he was following a teen. The dispatcher told Zimmerman not to.

    And from that moment to the shooting, details are few.

    But one man's testimony could be key for the police.

    "The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: 'help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911," he said.

    Trayvon Martin was in a hoodie; Zimmerman was in red.

    The witness only wanted to be identified as "John," and didn't not want to be shown on camera.

    His statements to police were instrumental, because police backed up Zimmerman's claims, saying those screams on the 911 call are those of Zimmerman.

    "When I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point," John said

    more here:
    http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/new...erman-03232012

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  41. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by HiHater View Post
    I'm basing it on my opinion, which is why I concluded by saying JMO MOO IMO.

    There's nothing to minimize about the "friend" because he was NOT a witness to what happened.
    Here's a witness:

    http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/new...erman-03232012

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  43. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horace Finklestein View Post
    That of course is not the only possible scenario. Trayvon could have doubled back and I doubt GZ would have been able to get close to him unless Trayvon allowed it. As we keep hearing, he outweighs TM, a football player, by 100 lbs.
    Well, according to Bill Lee, this is the scenario? Unless he lied? He would have seen the police reports right? He was defending George Zimmerman? Letting us all know that Zimmerman was innocently jumping out of his car to jot down a street address and walking back to his car when Trayvon jumped him from behind? Why would Bill Lee say that, in defense of Zimmerman, if that's not what Zimmerman stated happened?
    Justice for Trayvon

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuziQ View Post
    Songline, Let me clarify for you. Suspension does equate to a bad kid. And it certainly does not make one deserving of being killed.
    I agree with that nor did I ever say anything like that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rougelatete View Post
    911 Operator: "Are you following him?"

    GZ: "Yep."

    911 Operator: "Okay, we don't need you to do that."

    How is that not telling GZ to stop following TM??

    Also, in no way do Florida's 911 dispatchers enforce the law. See certification requirements and expectation of duties here:
    http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/.../0401.465.html
    Because saying "we don't need you to do that" is not the same as saying "do not do that". I think the semantics are important here.
    Justice for GEORGE!

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  48. #75
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    I'd like to know what this was about. Why didn't GZ want to give out his home address to the 911 dispatcher if he wasn't doing anything wrong?

    911 dispatcher:

    OK, do you live in the area?

    Zimmerman:

    Yeah, yeah, I live here.

    911 dispatcher:

    OK, what’s your apartment number?

    Zimmerman:

    It’s a home. It’s 1950 – oh, crap, I don’t want to give it out – I don’t know where this kid is [inaudible] [3:40]
    http://www.examiner.com/unsolved-cas...ll-transcribed
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