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  1. #1
    Hopeful One's Avatar
    Hopeful One is offline Blessed are the cracked for they are the ones who let in the light
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    PA - Church Stages Fake Kidnapping

    This is so bizarre to me. Who would think this is okay?? And of course the child is traumatized! How could she not be?? I can't believe more of the children aren't!

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46855299...me_and_courts/

    Justice for Travis


    Sometimes the first step towards forgiveness is understanding that the other person is a complete idiot.

  2. #2
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    Well, I thought it was really bizarre at first. But when I read that these kids were going to rural Mexico on a mission, then I understood what the church was trying to do. It may have been a shocking way to do it, but they were trying to train the kids and get them to undertsand the potential dangers, imo. I am not sure if it was the right way to do it, but I think their intentions were solid.
    “Every day that they don’t find something is good for me.“ Billie Dunn

  3. #3
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    Kidnapping is generally defined as the abduction of another person with intent to:
    Hold him for ransom or reward; or
    Use him as a shield or hostage; or
    Accomplish or aid the commission of any felony or flight therefrom; or
    Inflict physical injury upon him, or to violate or abuse him sexually; or
    Terrorize him or a third person;
    http://definitions.uslegal.com/k/kidnapping/
    Just when I think that I have seen the most depraved things a human can do to another human, somebody posts a new story...........

    Why is it that when a custodial parent fails to provide for a child it is called neglect and is a criminal matter. But when a non custodial parent fails to provide it is called failure to support and is a civil matter?


    "Just when the caterpillar thought its world was over, it became a butterfly" ~ Michelle Knight

  4. #4
    Hopeful One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katydid23 View Post
    Well, I thought it was really bizarre at first. But when I read that these kids were going to rural Mexico on a mission, then I understood what the church was trying to do. It may have been a shocking way to do it, but they were trying to train the kids and get them to undertsand the potential dangers, imo. I am not sure if it was the right way to do it, but I think their intentions were solid.
    I just don't understand how they would think this was in any way okay. I've heard about people in self-defense classes who are warned that at some point, they will face a surprise attack when they're out and about in their real lives. That's okay because they at least have some warning that when they are attacked, it most likely isn't real.

    I can see how the kids would be traumatized after that. I can't imagine thinking you truly are being kidnapped and how scary that must be. I would never want to go to that church again.

    Justice for Travis


    Sometimes the first step towards forgiveness is understanding that the other person is a complete idiot.

  5. #5
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    I just find it hard to believe that in this day and age that the church didn't have the parents sign permission slips for this excercise. I'd have been furious if it had been my kid. Of course my kid wouldn't be going to Mexico without me. They mentioned that one of the kids had some health issues and they had talked to that child's parents. Even if the parents agreed, what would the church have done if the kid had say had an asthma attack and died?

    I do have another question. I am guessing that the church will be sending some adults along as chaperone's. Were the chaperone's kidnapped too?
    Just when I think that I have seen the most depraved things a human can do to another human, somebody posts a new story...........

    Why is it that when a custodial parent fails to provide for a child it is called neglect and is a criminal matter. But when a non custodial parent fails to provide it is called failure to support and is a civil matter?


    "Just when the caterpillar thought its world was over, it became a butterfly" ~ Michelle Knight

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopeful One View Post
    I just don't understand how they would think this was in any way okay. I've heard about people in self-defense classes who are warned that at some point, they will face a surprise attack when they're out and about in their real lives. That's okay because they at least have some warning that when they are attacked, it most likely isn't real.

    I can see how the kids would be traumatized after that. I can't imagine thinking you truly are being kidnapped and how scary that must be. I would never want to go to that church again.
    I agree that it would be really frightening. But so would being kidnapped for real. And these kids are facing that danger for real by going on these missions. Maybe the church needs them to take it seriously.

    One of my friends was upset because her college student daughter was living with 3 other girls and they never locked their doors. Whenever my friend went to their little off campus house the door was unlocked and one time was standing wide open.

    So one Sunday evening the fathers of two of the girls put on ski masks and
    walked in on the girls watching tv in their livingroom. They had hoodies and masks on and a pretend gun and yelled at the girls to lay on the ground. They started screaming and crying and then the dads took off their masks.

    The parents of the other 2 girls were pretty mad the dads did that, and wanted their girls to move out. But I understood the point they were trying hard to make. And the girls started locking their doors after that.
    “Every day that they don’t find something is good for me.“ Billie Dunn

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    "If anyone was ever uncomfortable, they would be removed" from the exercise, Lanza said, though part of the idea was to shock the students with the experience.
    I don't know how anybody could not be uncomfortable during what they think is an armed attack.

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    i totally understand the reasoning behind this and to a point am for it. but they went beyond that point.

    i know people who are in BDSM, and i know there are people in that that follow the unspoken guidelines and those that don't. that happens with all walks of life. but i also know with BDSM and those that are into the kidnapping stick to the guidelines...it has to be consensual. all people involved KNOW its going to happen just not WHEN or HOW.

    that is the point where with this church i don't agree. they should have let the kids know it was going to happen but perhaps not when. i like the idea of preparing them for their mission to Mexico but come on these are kids.
    we need to encourage harder sentencing on those that are harming our children. our children are worth it!!

    stop the circus!! these children as all children deserve to be found and justice brought forth for what has happened to them!!


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    This was an incredibly cruel and irresponsible thing to do. The fact that multiple people who are in positions of authority agreed to it is disgusting. They didn't do this because they were concerned for the kids' safety. If safety was the issue, they could have had a legitimate training class done by professionals and with parents' permission or participation.

    They did this so that those grown men could get a thrill out of terrorizing the kids. It makes me sick when ego-driven men abuse women and children under the guise of religion.

    What they did to these kids and their familys could frighten them away from church forever. It is called spiritual abuse.

    MOO

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by athy View Post
    i totally understand the reasoning behind this and to a point am for it. but they went beyond that point.

    i know people who are in BDSM, and i know there are people in that that follow the unspoken guidelines and those that don't. that happens with all walks of life. but i also know with BDSM and those that are into the kidnapping stick to the guidelines...it has to be consensual. all people involved KNOW its going to happen just not WHEN or HOW.

    that is the point where with this church i don't agree. they should have let the kids know it was going to happen but perhaps not when. i like the idea of preparing them for their mission to Mexico but come on these are kids.
    What is BDSM?

    Justice for Travis


    Sometimes the first step towards forgiveness is understanding that the other person is a complete idiot.


  11. #11
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    TGI - I couldn't have said it better myself.

    Justice for Travis


    Sometimes the first step towards forgiveness is understanding that the other person is a complete idiot.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGIRecovered View Post
    This was an incredibly cruel and irresponsible thing to do. The fact that multiple people who are in positions of authority agreed to it is disgusting. They didn't do this because they were concerned for the kids' safety. If safety was the issue, they could have had a legitimate training class done by professionals and with parents' permission or participation.

    They did this so that those grown men could get a thrill out of terrorizing the kids. It makes me sick when ego-driven men abuse women and children under the guise of religion.

    What they did to these kids and their familys could frighten them away from church forever. It is called spiritual abuse.

    MOO
    I think that might be a little unfair, to paint them as sick, ego-driven abusers. Imo, anyway.

    I think they were trying really hard to get the kids to take their own safety seriously when they get down to Mexico. Sometimes a shock like this is a good way to get their full attention. I really do not think these are cruel or cold hearted people who did this. I think they are truly trying to get the kids to understand how important it is to be aware of their surroundings at all times.

    I worked in the school system for years. It is really hard to get kids to focus or to take some things seriously. Maybe they went a bit overboard, but I do believe they had good intentions. imo
    “Every day that they don’t find something is good for me.“ Billie Dunn

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    In martial arts we call that a stress drill. It's one thing to consciously know something could happen, in this case kidnappings in the area they're headed to, and quite another to actually experience it. In reality-based martial arts you learn moves and counter moves under very controlled circumstances. That doesn't happen in real life, tho. To test if the skills are being learned, becoming muscle memory, stress drills are essential. So are workouts and drills using street clothing, rather than workout gear. This is to test your response to a given situation.

    Having said that, it doesn't look to me like these kids were being trained in anything. Had they been trained in how to react in a kidnap situation, what to say, how to act, etc., then I can see the validity of this stress drill. However, to just play kidnap them to show them how it fells accomplishes nothing. It's a waste of time, unless the "kidnappers" were getting their jollies doing the drills.

    They should train the kids in the proper response; what to say, what to observe, how to keep things calm, etc. That would be more valuable.

    If they had done that to my kids without prior authorization from me, they would have gotten a little stress training of my own, just so they'd know what it felt like to be assaulted without warning. Seems fair to me.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by katydid23 View Post
    I think that might be a little unfair, to paint them as sick, ego-driven abusers. Imo, anyway.

    I think they were trying really hard to get the kids to take their own safety seriously when they get down to Mexico. Sometimes a shock like this is a good way to get their full attention. I really do not think these are cruel or cold hearted people who did this. I think they are truly trying to get the kids to understand how important it is to be aware of their surroundings at all times.

    I worked in the school system for years. It is really hard to get kids to focus or to take some things seriously. Maybe they went a bit overboard, but I do believe they had good intentions. imo
    I understand your point about kids not taking things seriously katydid.

    When I read the article, the kidnapping it described entailed men with real guns who were trained to deal with real criminals, covering the kids' heads, pulling chairs out from under them, herding them into a van and driving them to the pastor's home, where they witness the pastor being beaten. Then came the interrogation. This was by no means a "fake" kidnapping, it was elaborately planned and went on for a while.

    I have two older teens who are both active in their youth groups and one wants to be a missionary. I teach at the junior high level.

    Mexico is currently not a safe place for anyone. The drug wars have been claiming civillians, police, military members and even tourists for several years. This church did not intend to take the kids on vacation, they were going into the impoverished areas. IMO, they should have known better, as the violence is nothing new.

    Kidnapping and abusing these teenagers like they did cannot make a teenager's brain develop any faster than nature allows, and nature dictates that kids this age have several years to go before they will be neurologicly complete.

    Not trying to argue, just explaining my POV. Like I said, I see where you are coming from too!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TGIRecovered View Post
    I understand your point about kids not taking things seriously katydid.

    When I read the article, the kidnapping it described entailed men with real guns who were trained to deal with real criminals, covering the kids' heads, pulling chairs out from under them, herding them into a van and driving them to the pastor's home, where they witness the pastor being beaten. Then came the interrogation. This was by no means a "fake" kidnapping, it was elaborately planned and went on for a while.

    I have two older teens who are both active in their youth groups and one wants to be a missionary. I teach at the junior high level.

    Mexico is currently not a safe place for anyone. The drug wars have been claiming civillians, police, military members and even tourists for several years. This church did not intend to take the kids on vacation, they were going into the impoverished areas. IMO, they should have known better, as the violence is nothing new.

    Kidnapping and abusing these teenagers like they did cannot make a teenager's brain develop any faster than nature allows, and nature dictates that kids this age have several years to go before they will be neurologicly complete.

    Not trying to argue, just explaining my POV. Like I said, I see where you are coming from too!
    One thing we can both probably agree on is that young kids probably have no business going into the worst parts of Mexico right now. The cartel is not joking around when they run into Yankee Gringos down there. I think the church should send money and supplies and some bibles, and leave it at that for now.
    “Every day that they don’t find something is good for me.“ Billie Dunn

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