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Thread: trial thread: 3/28/2012

  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamille View Post
    I believe that is an error in reporting about the shoes being thrown on the 401. Supposedly it was the clothes they changed out of at the convenience store near the car wash.

    Are there any signs on the road leading up to a car wash before the 401 that say Cambridge? Like Cambridge 40km or something like that? Is there a road out of the area they were in that would go into Cambridge if you didn't get on the 401? And signage to indicate this?

    MOO
    There are quite a few different ways to get to Cambridge, all of them are paved county roads from the crime scene to Cambridge. No straight direct route...you can turn off of Hwy 6 in Marden, just before Guelph this way you bypass Guelph, you do not have to use the 401 and its county roads all the way to Cambridge ( a few turns, I usually end up getting lost)

    or taking Wellington St out of Guelph leads you towards Cambridge. (Yes there are signs saying so here) this route takes you into Cambridge where TLM mentioned (old navy...it was closed, she remembered seeing Chuckee Cheese IIRC) and both those stores are there upon entering into Cambridge.
    Last edited by flipflop; 03-28-2012 at 07:06 PM.

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  3. #227
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    I got a lump in my throat when reading this.

    It just hits you so hard.

    The hammer, their blood soaked clothing, little Tori's clothes, probably her missing skirt, and her Bratz Bookbag, filled with school stuff.

    She should have just been at home watching a movie with her childhood friends.

    Instead, she was lying in garbage bags, mutilated, dead, under a pile of rocks, and her innocent childhood was forever gone.

    The entirely shocking details of this hideous crime are overwhelmingly sad.




    Quote Originally Posted by swedie View Post
    Good point Max about the knife. I have seen pictures of it, so LE probably do have it. MOO. Too bad the other items were not found as that would have been great evidence to test. I'm not worried though as I feel there is enough evidence to put MR away for his part in Tori's death. MOO

    She told the court she and Rafferty placed the murder weapon, a hammer, into a garbage bag along with her white jacket and his T-shirt, which both contained blood. The bags also contained empty water bottles, Tori's clothing and her Bratz backpack.

    The two then drove to a car wash in Cambridge, Ont., where they threw this "evidence" into a Dumpster. They cleaned the outside and inside of the car, and later tossed their shoes onto Highway 401, she said.

    McClintic also took a knife and cut out pieces of the car's back seat where there were still stains, she said. The pair changed into new clothing before returning to Woodstock that evening. Police have recovered both the shoes and the new clothing.

    Read more: http://www.canada.com/news/Tori+Staf...#ixzz1qS6dmn5o

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  5. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Hello_Kitty View Post
    The blue knife might have blood dna or other kinds of dna on it still.
    TLM says the knife was used to cut out stained portions of the now missing back seat. If that is the case, then its possible that the blade had evidence on it such as you've suggested. Possibly blood from Tori, or blood from Tori mixed with MR. I have to think as well that its possible that maybe there was a transfer of fiber from the seat to the blade as the chunks were cut out? I am sure that MR probably washed off the knife to remove evidence but its possible something very minute was there that he did not see or which was not visible to the naked eye which forensics were able to uncover.

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  7. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by matou View Post
    I really have to think these two drove to Mount Forest after this happened. Why would they go to Cambridge? Doesn't make sense to me. JMO
    While from Mount Forest back to Woodstock might be shorter taking the back roads, it may not necessarily be faster. Likely they drove back the way they came, Highway 6 to the 401, in which case they passed Cambridge on the 401. Lots more car washes that way and more populated, so they would blend in. JMO.

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  9. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blueginger View Post
    I was actually speaking in a high level overview. Yes she denied involvement at first which is self preservation, hoping they donít have enough evidence. She has swayed back and forth on the garbage bags, the hammer, and the actual act of murder itself. I donít think anyone would argue that TLM lies, whether she is doing it to cover for MTR or just because she is a pathological liar makes no difference.

    The way I see it is that TLM confirms that Tori was taken to the car, driven around for a fair length of time suffering with worry of what was going to happen to her, why these strangers would not take her home. After that mental torture TLM alleges that Tori was raped, both a physically painful and mentally torturous experience. I find it hard to believe that after such an act that MTR had any intention of returning the girl home.

    If TLM had the idea to buy garbage bags and a hammer, do you not think that MTR would ask why are you going to home depot and why do you need that stuff? What I am so clumsily trying to say is, they both knew Tori was in the car, the story on the rape has not changed, itís the things around the actually murder, who did it and who bought the murder weapon that seem to be in question, but really does it matter? They both knew what occurred and neither of them did anything to stop it, save Tori at any point along their journey or report it to police.


    Thanks for your common sense posts and for being here for Victoria.
    Justice for Holly Bobo🎀

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  11. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by flipflop View Post
    There are quite a few different ways to get to Cambridge, all of them are paved county roads from the crime scene to Cambridge. No straight direct route...you can turn off of Hwy 6 in Marden, just before Guelph this way you bypass Guelph, you do not have to use the 401 and its county roads all the way to Cambridge ( a few turns, I usually end up getting lost)

    or taking Wellington St out of Guelph leads you towards Cambridge. (Yes there are signs saying so here) this route takes you into Cambridge and has all of the stores that TLM mentioned (old navy...it was closed, she remembered seeing Chuckee Cheese IIRC)
    But say you're not going to Cambridge, you're heading back to Woodstock. Are there any signs before the 401 that indicate that Cambridge is further along the route? Because TLM wouldn't have a clue where she was. Especially if it was a rural coin wash. But if she saw a road sign that said Cambridge, even if it was another 40km away, maybe that's what she remembers.

    MOO

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  13. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delaware View Post
    TLM says the knife was used to cut out stained portions of the now missing back seat. If that is the case, then its possible that the blade had evidence on it such as you've suggested. Possibly blood from Tori, or blood from Tori mixed with MR. I have to think as well that its possible that maybe there was a transfer of fiber from the seat to the blade as the chunks were cut out? I am sure that MR probably washed off the knife to remove evidence but its possible something very minute was there that he did not see or which was not visible to the naked eye which forensics were able to uncover.
    I'm sure he boiled that thing.

    MOO

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  15. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamille View Post
    But say you're not going to Cambridge, you're heading back to Woodstock. Are there any signs before the 401 that indicate that Cambridge is further along the route? Because TLM wouldn't have a clue where she was. Especially if it was a rural coin wash. But if she saw a road sign that said Cambridge, even if it was another 40km away, maybe that's what she remembers.

    MOO
    off of Hwy 6 no, but once in Guelph on the Hanlon expressway (which is hwy 6 as well) there is a Cambridge sign at the Wellington St exit.

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  17. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamille View Post
    I'm sure he boiled that thing.

    MOO
    Oh probably. But my understanding is that blood doesn't just wash off so easily. Sure it might look clean, but that doesn't always mean it is clean. Example, I know blood stains will still show up years later on things like walls. I wonder if this is true for the blade of a knife? I also know some things screw up blood spatter in forensic tests like bleach. Maybe he boiled the damn thing in bleach.

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  19. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyladi View Post
    I think if the one shoe was important to the case they would have talked further about it, however they didnt ask if there was blood on it so it makes me wonder if something about this will be brought up later.

    Although TLM is not a credible witness because of the lies, I think the crown is showing where she is credible and it will be up to the jury to decide if they believe her or not.
    (BBM)

    The witness was called today and I very much doubt that she will be called to the stand again. This would have been the time to ask anything and everything about all three shoes she found - as she saw them. Witnesses do not testify without first being interviewed by the Crown. The Crown would already know everything she is going to say. Had she seen blood on any of those shoes, this would have been the time to ask and be answered. There's no way the prosecution would have let something like that slide, especially on the shoes she kept. She's done.

    Discussing the missing shoe would be futile, as there is no evidence. It's gone. They can't prove a thing. The fact that they didn't even ask her to describe it assures me that there's no way it could have been MTR's. Another opportunity that the Crown would never have let pass had it been even remotely possible.

    If forensics found anything on the Shaq shoes, it will come up when it's their turn to testify.

    Sometimes we forget that neither the Crown nor the defence cares a whit about what WE want to know. If the information is relevant and supports their case, they will ask and discuss so the jury can hear. If a subject is not brought up by either the Crown or the defence, the jury can deduce that there was no relevance. They're not going to waste the court's time asking questions that are irrelevant to their cause.

    JMO
    Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feeling for the strength of their argument. - William E. Gladstone

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  21. #236
    The Crown would not have a layperson testify to whether there was blood on the shoes. That is what the experts are for.


    MOO

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  23. #237
    And speaking of the knife, is it known for sure that it's MR's knife? In TLM's letters, that were entered in to evidence, she stated that a blade was her favourite weapon. Things that make me go hmmm....

    MOO

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  25. #238
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    If it were her knife, she would have used it to commit the murder, no? JMO

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  27. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamille View Post
    But say you're not going to Cambridge, you're heading back to Woodstock. Are there any signs before the 401 that indicate that Cambridge is further along the route? Because TLM wouldn't have a clue where she was. Especially if it was a rural coin wash. But if she saw a road sign that said Cambridge, even if it was another 40km away, maybe that's what she remembers.

    MOO
    From the following, it seems to me that TLM did at least pass through Cambridge that night.

    Det. Const. Darmon is now reviewing pictures that show landmarks identified by McClintic that purport to show the route her and Rafferty took after leaving the laneway near Mount Forest. Photos include a side road where she says they discarded their shoes and a sign on Highway 401 near an exit in Cambridge.
    by Jon Hembrey March 23 at 4:01 PM

    McClintic identified several landmarks in Cambridge, which she saw on the night of April 8, 2009, including several restaurants, an Old Navy sign and a women's only GoodLife Fitness gym.
    by Jon Hembrey March 23 at 4:06 PM

    The jury is now being shown a drawing McClintic made on June 3, 2009, of a car wash in Cambridge, which she says was used by herself and Rafferty to clean the car after killing Tori. She also created two pictures showing the variety store where she says they changed their clothes on the night of April 8, 2009.
    by Jon Hembrey March 23 at 4:09 PM

    Det. Const. Darmon says police checked several car washes in Cambridge but could not identify the building described by McClintic.
    by Jon Hembrey March 23 at 4:12 PM

    AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court
    Police brought McClintic through Cambridge several times. She pointed out areas she and Rafferty had been.
    Adrian Morrow‏@AdrianMorrow
    McClintic says she never returned to the scene, but did identify some landmarks around Cambridge for the OPP
    AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court
    She showed them the Cambridge Hotel, the Goodlife Fitness location and the Old Navy location.
    JMO
    Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feeling for the strength of their argument. - William E. Gladstone

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  29. #240
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    They changed their clothes in a VARIETY STORE? So they asked to use the bathroom? There would be surveillance I would think. Usually a variety store doesn't have a public washroom. That's strange. JMO

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  31. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by matou View Post
    They changed their clothes in a VARIETY STORE? So they asked to use the bathroom? There would be surveillance I would think. Usually a variety store doesn't have a public washroom. That's strange. JMO
    It is fairly common for a convenient store with gas station to have a public washroom, you usually have to ask for the key as the doors are onthe outside of the store

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  33. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by matou View Post
    They changed their clothes in a VARIETY STORE? So they asked to use the bathroom? There would be surveillance I would think. Usually a variety store doesn't have a public washroom. That's strange. JMO
    Even if there wasn't any surveillance you would think whoever was working would remember two people coming in, one after the other to change clothing. Very stupid thing to do IMO. But then again I think TLM testified that she put the other clothes over the clean ones till she got back in the car.
    ♥♥♥ In Memory of Tori ♥♥♥

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  35. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by flipflop View Post
    It is fairly common for a convenient store with gas station to have a public washroom, you usually have to ask for the key as the doors are onthe outside of the store
    Did TLM say it was a gas station store? I know that gas stations have washrooms because I've had to use them on road trips. I've never asked to use the washroom at a variety store though. xo

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  37. #244
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    SmoothOperator is offline Sadly what connects all these puzzles is that there's a victim@the heart of each
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    Oops my apologies for the double post am via mobile and it's not letting me just delete
    Last edited by SmoothOperator; 03-28-2012 at 08:28 PM.
    The quickest way to become a fool is to argue with one..

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  39. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by matou View Post
    Did TLM say it was a gas station store? I know that gas stations have washrooms because I've had to use them on road trips. I've never asked a variety store to use their washroom though. xo
    she didn't mention a gas station, I was just saying they are common with one.

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  41. #246
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    There is one of those coin-operated car washes (where you can clean inside and outside of the car) just off the Hanlon (in Guelph, on the way to the 401). I don't think there is a convenience store right there, though.

    Tink

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  43. #247
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    SmoothOperator is offline Sadly what connects all these puzzles is that there's a victim@the heart of each
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    Quote Originally Posted by antiquegirl View Post
    I wonder why he'd bother. His running lights would still have been on and visible from the house. Those are automatic and can't be turned off while you're driving.
    Above BBM. . This simply is not true.. while it may be for some by far and wide it is not true for all or the majority of vehicles..

    As for the why he chose to do so? Well this doesn't even register on my list of the why would he choose to do such.. moo of course but its obvious to me this person believed he knew what he was doing and this was only one of dozens of details he'd thought he was intelligent enough to cover his tracks and outsmart LE.. IMO he's no different than the hundreds of other predator killers. .they're a dime a dozen in that they always believe in their narcissistic minds that they're different or somehow better, more elite than the hundreds of other predators.. they're not and MR is just simply the one that was caught and facing the music at this present time.. as I said they're a dime a dozen ..he's not the first nor the last of them.. moo of course..

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  45. #248
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    When we get to the forensics, if Lillian did not actually launder those running shoes, there may be a soil match scraped from the tread of the shoe to the crime scene.

    I would think LE also scraped the tire treads of MTR's car for soil sample matching.

    I wonder if LE surreptitiously installed a GPS on the undercarriage of MTR's car after the initial interview.

    Moo

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  47. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmoothOperator View Post
    Above BBM that simply is not true.. while it may be the case for some vehicles by far and wide it isn't true for all or the majority of vehicles.
    It's the law in Canada. MTR's car was a 2003 Honda Civic.

    Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 108 requires DRLs on all new vehicles made or imported after January 1, 1990.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daytime...ng_lamp#Canada

    Daytime Running Light Systems

    10. (1) No person shall sell or offer for sale a daytime running light system that does not conform to the requirements of the Canadian Standards Association Standard CAN/CSA-D603-88, Daytime Running Light Systems. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 587, s. 10 (1).
    http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/reg...s_900587_e.htm
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  49. #250
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    This might be a stupid question but if TLM was charged with murder in 2010 that means that she would have to have pleaded guilty???? which would mean that her saying she did it on the stand isn't the first time she said she did it right?? JMO

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