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Thread: trial thread: 3/28/2012

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by matou View Post
    Well, I'm disheartened that the bits of the car seat were never recovered. JMO
    Wonder what evidence was found at his house?

    Chapter 6
    Justice for Holly Bobo🎀

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  3. #152
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    [quote=Wondergirl;7730654]
    After she threw them into the bush, as she and Mr. Rafferty drove south, Tori’s clothes and the hammer - never located by police – were placed in a garbage bag and dropped in a dumpster at a carwash in Cambridge, Ms. McClintic said earlier during her testimony.

    There, the couple washed down Mr. Rafferty’s Honda Civic and shampooed the inside, including the floor mats, Ms. McClintic said.

    In a public washroom they then changed into different clothes that Mr. Rafferty had brought along, tossing their old garments out of the window as they drove along Highway 401, together with chunks of
    upholstery from the back seat, Ms. McClintic said. The chunks of upholstery have never been found.
    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle2384078/

    So the chunks of upholstery were thrown out along the 401 and were never found. sigh. One thing though, if TLM was in the front passenger seat when they left the crime scene, and they were driving south, she would have been on the west side of highway 6. The shoes were found on the east side of the road. Either TLM was in the back at the time when she through out her shoes (through the rear driver side window) or they were driving north. JMO

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  5. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldsoul2 View Post
    This has always bugged me that she was able to remember alot of other details but not the carwash. How many carwashes could their be in the area they travelled?
    I thought I read that TLM had provided a diagram of the car wash and the variety store as well.

    If this is true, this is one of those times when LE should have engaged the public in trying to locate these places.

    MR and TLM were in custody so there was no reason to be keeping things so close to the vest at that point. They should have utilized the public to figure out where these places may have been.

    I don't remember them ever going public asking about this.

    Perhaps it wasn't in Cambridge but in some other town between Guelph and Woodstock. If the place existed, it was obviously a coin wash so how hard could it have been to find?

    I bet we would have found it.

    MOO

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  7. #154
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    I would like to know why they were in Cambridge?? yes it is close to Guelph but still quite a drive from mount Forest and woodstock. Is it possible that TLM was confused?? JMO

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  9. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confusedashell View Post
    I would like to know why they were in Cambridge?? yes it is close to Guelph but still quite a drive from mount Forest and woodstock. Is it possible that TLM was confused?? JMO
    Well it's halfway between and likely in the area where they would have got on the 401 so it's possible she was confused.

    MOO

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  11. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldsoul2 View Post
    This has always bugged me that she was able to remember alot of other details but not the carwash. How many carwashes could their be in the area they travelled?
    She probably had too much on her mind on the way back to be paying close attention. What bugs me is that police investigators were unable to find a car wash in the area that looked vaguely familiar to her. Then again Cambridge is a huge regional area, sort of like Mississauga, not a city, per se.

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  13. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by ~n/t~ View Post
    I agree...very strange!!!
    I was just wondering the same thing as I'm reading through and catching up. Did no one ask about what the other shoe looked like either? What size was it? What color? Was it a man's or woman's shoe? I'm hoping as I read and catch up that these questions will be answered!!

    I was also thinking that if the shoes had appeared to have blood on them then the witness probably either wouldn't have picked them up, and might have then contacted police regarding the finding, rather than bring them home. I'm wondering if they were just maybe dirty, muddy and wet not bloody? Of course, if they were bloody, and wet, the rain / snow / slush might have washed off blood evidence to the naked eye but perhaps forensics could have recovered that somehow?

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  15. #158
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    Metcalfe also said there was a car’s back seat in the same area of the side road for a while. She mentioned it to police since she had heard they were searching for Rafferty’s back seat, but by May 30 it was no longer there. She then told the officer about the shoes and he asked her to describe them, Metcalfe said.
    http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/ar...ded-shoes?bn=1
    ♥♥♥ In Memory of Tori ♥♥♥

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  17. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayFriend View Post
    She probably had too much on her mind on the way back to be paying close attention. What bugs me is that police investigators were unable to find a car wash in the area that looked vaguely familiar to her. Then again Cambridge is a huge regional area, sort of like Mississauga, not a city, per se.
    She may have saw a road sign that said Cambridge before going there and just assumed that's where she was?

    MOO

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  19. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor Bug View Post
    Scoyne said shoes were sent to Centre for Forensic Science to test for DNA

    On May 31st 2009, shoes were turned over to Scoyne. Centre of Forensic Sciences did testing on them. Looking for DNA evidence

    Scoyne says shoes were sent to the Centre of Forensic Sciences to test for DNA. Crown says we will hear from scientist later

    We'll hear from forensic experts about the shoes later on, Carnegie says.

    Scoyne shown left SHAQ shoe in plastic bag
    The Crown says the shoes were tested, and we will hear from the scientist later which makes me think that they probably found trace evidence of something on those shoes. I'm guessing maybe blood and if so I wonder how much and in what pattern? I'm also wondering about transfer evidence they may have obtained (eg: soil on the tread matching the soil in the area where the remains were found). Maybe there was drug residue on or in the shoes (would there be evidence of drug use through the sweat of the foot into the insides of the shoes I wonder?).

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  21. #161
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    I wonder what the jury thinks of the cavalier attitude of Rafferty?


    In the prisoner’s box, Mr. Rafferty appeared bored, leaning back in his seat with his eyes closed during most of the testimony.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle2384078/

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  23. #162
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    Why would he do that during a Murder trial?? To me a lot of what he is doing in that prisoners box is saying a lot. Eye rolling, head shaking, closing his eyes if he was bored. Like seriously?? You are charged with 1st degree murder and this is how you are behaving? I am telling you that would not be me. If I was not guilty I would be listening to everything very carefully and talking to my lawyer afterwards.

    I hope the Jury notices this.
    May you rest in peace.....Tori Stafford

    Missing but never forgotten Nicole Louise Morin last seen July 30th 1985

    http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32372

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  25. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    I wonder what the jury thinks of the cavalier attitude of Rafferty?
    All old news to him
    Take the road of truth or it will eventually be done for you

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  27. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamille View Post
    Well if it's relevant and it was still out there and LE couldn't find it then I would be very disappointed in our OPP.

    Could have been a flip flop or a high heeled pump so then it wouldn't be relevant but I would think they would establish that. If I was on the jury I'd be scratching my head right now about that shoe. Why mention it and not talk about it?

    Heck I'm not even on the jury and I'm scratching my head about that

    MOO
    I was thinking they spent a good amount of time establishing where it was found exactly, close to the lilac bush and it made me think that police might have gone back there and searched that specific area again looking for perhaps another shoe? If MR went back and removed evidence, I wonder if he got there first, and found the other one and took it with him?

    The witness said she was going to donate TLM's shoes to charity so why didn't she get around to it? She found the shoes in late march or early April. She had them still in her possession on May 30th. She said she thought they'd be a good pair of shoes for someone which also made me think they couldn't have been covered in blood visible to the naked eye because if they had of been she would probably not have had thoughts of donating them kwim?

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  29. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyladi View Post
    Why would he do that during a Murder trial?? To me a lot of what he is doing in that prisoners box is saying a lot. Eye rolling, head shaking, closing his eyes if he was bored. Like seriously?? You are charged with 1st degree murder and this is how you are behaving? I am telling you that would not be me. If I was not guilty I would be listening to everything very carefully and talking to my lawyer afterwards.

    I hope the Jury notices this.
    I've said before that he's testifying with his actions. And you'd think the Crown would put an end to that. Maybe they did so now he just looks tired and bored? LOL

    MOO

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  31. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamille View Post
    I've said before that he's testifying with his actions. And you'd think the Crown would put an end to that. Maybe they did so now he just looks tired and bored? LOL

    MOO
    Or maybe the crown is allowing it because it could help their case?
    May you rest in peace.....Tori Stafford

    Missing but never forgotten Nicole Louise Morin last seen July 30th 1985

    http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32372

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  33. #167
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    I was one of the very few people who didn't think MR went back to collect items... until today. *sigh*

    WHY wasn't that single shoe talked about in more detail? Unless they have the other, or they found it at the dump later, or it is irrelevant (coincidentally there, unrelated to the case).... I don't see why it wasn't at least described.

    And I was really hoping they found the pieces of the car seat.

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  35. #168
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    Metcalfe also said there was a car’s back seat in the same area of the side road for a while. She mentioned it to police since she had heard they were searching for Rafferty’s back seat, but by May 30 it was no longer there.
    http://http://www.thestar.com/news/c...ded-shoes?bn=1

    In a public washroom they then changed into different clothes that Mr. Rafferty had brought along, tossing their old garments out of the window as they drove along Highway 401, together with chunks of upholstery from the back seat, Ms. McClintic said. Neither the bits of upholstery nor the seat itself have been found.
    http://http://www.theglobeandmail.co...rticle2384078/

    I'm thinking that either this wasn't his car seat that Metcalfe had seen, or TLM lied about that part too. If the seat was removed near Highway 6, there would have been no seat to cut chunks out of by the time they were on the 401 outside of Cambridge (after the car wash).
    The truth does not cease to exist because it is ignored. ~ Aldous Huxley

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  37. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by antiquegirl View Post
    ITA. They should have established it.

    I used to do a lot of driving around - both in Toronto and out of town. Never failed to surprise me how many single and even pairs of shoes I'd see on the road and off to the side of the road. Lots and lots of them. Never understood the phenomenon except to think they fell off the backs of pick-up trucks, or kids threw them out the window.

    IF the single shoe found by Lillian was one of the pair belonging to MTR, it shouldn't have been far from the missing one. Anyone searching for it should have found it, whether it was LE or MTR himself. If it had been MTR, he would have also picked up the one found by Lillian. So, I suspect this single, missing shoe had no relation to the Shaq pair, which is why no more was said about it. Frustrating for us, but unimportant to the investigation.

    JMO
    But how can we or the jury know for sure whether the other shoe that was mentioned is of relevance or not to this case, since it seems that no one asked for any damn details about it? I would think that if it was not relevant, the Crown would want to clear that question up for the jury, and if it was, wouldn't they want us and the jury to know how it was and why? Maybe they did not provide further information on the other shoe because they actually found the other shoe, and perhaps we will hear about it later?

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  39. #170
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    TLM has the silos in the west direction in her two drawings. I thought the silos were north. JMO Can someone post a map of the area with the silos?

    drawings: #37, 38 http://www.am980.ca/Other/McClintic.pdf

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  41. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juris_Prudence View Post
    I was thinking they spent a good amount of time establishing where it was found exactly, close to the lilac bush and it made me think that police might have gone back there and searched that specific area again looking for perhaps another shoe? If MR went back and removed evidence, I wonder if he got there first, and found the other one and took it with him?

    The witness said she was going to donate TLM's shoes to charity so why didn't she get around to it? She found the shoes in late march or early April. She had them still in her possession on May 30th. She said she thought they'd be a good pair of shoes for someone which also made me think they couldn't have been covered in blood visible to the naked eye because if they had of been she would probably not have had thoughts of donating them kwim?
    There seems to be some discrepancy in the press about when the shoes were found.

    A woman who lives in the area testified today that in about early April 2009 — the month Tori was killed — she was taking a walk on Sideroad 6 near her home north of Guelph and found a pair of white basketball shoes with blue trim and a single shoe.
    http://http://www.thestar.com/news/c...ded-shoes?bn=1

    Software worker Lillian Metcalfe, who lives north of Guelph along the 8th Line, near Hwy 6, told prosecutor Stephanie Venne that late in April or early May she found the Shaq running shoes in a clump of thick grass along Side Road 6.
    http://http://www.theglobeandmail.co...rticle2384078/
    The truth does not cease to exist because it is ignored. ~ Aldous Huxley

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  43. #172
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    I really have to think these two drove to Mount Forest after this happened. Why would they go to Cambridge? Doesn't make sense to me. JMO

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  45. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyladi View Post
    Why would he do that during a Murder trial?? To me a lot of what he is doing in that prisoners box is saying a lot. Eye rolling, head shaking, closing his eyes if he was bored. Like seriously?? You are charged with 1st degree murder and this is how you are behaving? I am telling you that would not be me. If I was not guilty I would be listening to everything very carefully and talking to my lawyer afterwards.

    I hope the Jury notices this.
    I noticed descriptions of him 'staring intently with narrowed eyes' at McClintic during her testimony. Bullying without words? Sounds like a scowl.
    IMO, his body language is less than appropriate for somebody who has been charged with 1st degree murder (amongst other things), and claims to be 'not guilty'.

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  47. #174
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    MR's cell phone pinged off the cell tower at 7:45 pm. It's on sideroad 2E between concession road 8 and highway 6. I have it on the Victoria Stafford map. This is where I think the silos are, unless I am mistaken.

    http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?msid=2...01984,0.004249

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  49. #175
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    I have been lurking for a while, wanting to post but had a difficult time gathering my thoughts. I figured I will just put my two cents out there no matter how unorganized it may be. I would like to stress from the get-go this is my opinion. In MTR audio interview with the police he said that TLM was a friend and almost scoffed at the officer asking if they were more than friends. IMO TLM did consider MTR her boyfriend or intimate partner of some kind as friends usually don’t get hotel rooms together. You don’t need to demonstrate public signs of affection in order to be a couple, many married couples walk around without holding hands , etc (no marriage jokes). There seems to be a focus on the physical appearance of MTR past girlfriends, I propose that the physical attributes may not have been as important as the psychological ones. Seeking out women who were looking for love, who had a need to be filled and thrived on the attention. Perhaps MTR had the ability to sense the type of man they were seeking and be that man. I am sure we all know someone who has compromised their own beliefs due to the blindness called love and how far someone will go, will depend on how strong they are psychologically.

    The evidence that we know of so far puts MTR car in and around all areas of importance. MTR used his bank card, went to Timmies, etc all on video, as well as the cellphone being used to check voice mail. TLM really has only changed her story on who actually did the killing. Pretty much everything still supports that MR was as much of a part of the situation as TLM if not more so and we still don’t have all the evidence.

    When a young child is tortured mentally by being held against their will, sexually assaulted, beaten and eventually murdered those responsible should be held fully responsible. It should not be about loop holes and legal wrangling, it should be about accountability, about justice for the child and the family. It should be about preventing future type crimes from happening, as people with the mental capacity to commit such crimes do not learn a lesson by being caught, they learn to how to improve their crimes and beat the system. My hope is that justice is served in the truest sense of the word, by the sentence being based on the crime, not the loopholes.

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