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Thread: FL 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #11

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    FL 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #11

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    Clarification of WS stance regarding the "victim friendly" issue.


    I had a discussion with the owners about how we were to deal with this. This is what I was advised:

    At this point in the investigation we don't KNOW exactly who ALL the victims are now. We KNOW that Trayvon is a victim, because he is dead. However, news breaks and new leaks come forth everyday and it is still unclear whether Zimmerman was a victim of any violence. Until more verifiable FACTS are available, WS has chosen to err on the side of treating both the confirmed (Trayvon) AND potential (Zimmerman), both as victims.

    Like I said, that may change after we have more verifiable information

    Hope that helps clear this up.

    Please bump as needed.
    Last edited by beach; 03-30-2012 at 12:23 PM. Reason: typo
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    Just a reminder:

    WS does not permit links that request or suggest sending donations without the clear permission of the owners . This is to protect our members and for no other reason.
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    Thank you for determining at the this time all should be considered victims.
    And I want to remind everyone looking a past photos doesn't shed light on anything.
    Ted Bundy fooled many with his good looks and charm.
    Last edited by Beyond Belief; 03-30-2012 at 12:21 PM. Reason: i can't spell and am upset with things I am reading.

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    m00c0w -

    I re-read what your post was and maybe this is what you meant.

    No, at the point in the example - dude breaking into neighbor's window - me with gun (let's say in my driveway) and I yell "STOP - I HAVE A GUN" - no, I'm really not in fear of my life - not at that point. Why would I be - I have a gun and its trained right at the subject of that "deadly force".

    Now, if example 2 and that person pulls his own gun - Imma duckin' - but I'm not going to return fire until he fires first and yes, I could very easliy end up dead - that happens everyday - I don't move quick enough and the dude gets off a lucky shot.

    So, I guess my answer to your post was yes, you're right. I'm not in deadly fear of my life at that moment - which is also why I'm not pulling that trigger. Why would I be? Dude is across the street - trying to climb in through a window.


    Is that what you were getting at?




    JMHO

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    Here is the bio for the attorney that was contacted 2 days after he shooting....

    http://parkscrump.com/attorneys/benjamin-crump/

    And if you read his bio, I think it's safe to say, if this case wasn't about race to begin with, it sure was on day 2 when this man was contacted.


    Snipped:

    Mr. Crump is a frequent author and speaker. He has recently published an article entitled “The Police don’t shoot White Men in the Back, Representing Minority Victims in Police Brutality Cases."

    IMO this is where the White vs. Black stuff started. Not that inaudible word GZ may or may not have said.

    Everybody wants to call GZ a racist because of a word that we can't even hear clearly.

    From that article, linked in the previous thread (I'll find it if y'all want a link) this attorney has been a big part of calling for rallies and protests.


    Take this attorney, JJ, AS, and he Black Panthers, how is it not RACIAL???

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    MIAMI (AP) -- The funeral director who oversaw slain Florida teenager Trayvon Martin's burial says the body bore no signs of a fight.

    Richard Kurtz says there were no notable marks on Martin's hands, face or body other than the gunshot wound that killed him. Kurtz says he expected to see some marks if Martin had been in a fight.

    Read more: http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/lo...#ixzz1qcO83u7F

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    I am not sure I understand how you can characterize TM as a "nice kid" because he looks sweet in the horseback riding photo or the one with the girl in the last thread, but on the flip side, you can be enraged at GZ for thinking the worst about seeing a strange boy walking around his neighborhood.

    You are summing up based on the way someone looks just like GZ did, but this does not mean ANYTHING about character. Have you read TM's twitter accounts? He was not a nice kid imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Old Owl
    huh? I don't get what you're saying. First, in this example the dude was in the process of committing a crime and depending on which example he chose to take would depend on if I ever pulled the trigger.

    If he had a gun and pulled and fired - welp, he's in even bigger deeper doo-doo (down here in Florida - the gun changes everything and escalates charges).

    Catching a criminal in the process of commiting a crime and holding that guy at gunpoint until cops get there is not assault with a dealy weapon. Now, if it turns out I didn't have a CWP or the gun was legitimately registered to me - there could be poitential for minor charges. Even without the CWP if I was at my house and the robber was going into the house across the sctreet - as long as I stayed on my property - then no need for a CWP.

    No way would the person holding that robber at gunpoint until cops arrive be charged with assault. No way. Not here in Florida.

    Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.



    JMHO
    Those would be very hairy circumstances that most people familiar with gun laws would tell you to stay away from.

    784.021 Aggravated assault.—
    (1) An “aggravated assault” is an assault:
    (a) With a deadly weapon without intent to kill; or
    (b) With an intent to commit a felony.
    (2) Whoever commits an aggravated assault shall be guilty of a felony of the third degree,
    http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/.../0784.021.html

    790.053 Open carrying of weapons.—
    (1) Except as otherwise provided by law and in subsection (2), it is unlawful for any person to openly carry on or about his or her person any firearm or electric weapon or device. It is not a violation of this section for a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm as provided in s. 790.06(1), and who is lawfully carrying a firearm in a concealed manner, to briefly and openly display the firearm to the ordinary sight of another person, unless the firearm is intentionally displayed in an angry or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense.
    (2) A person may openly carry, for purposes of lawful self-defense:
    (a) A self-defense chemical spray.
    (b) A nonlethal stun gun or dart-firing stun gun or other nonlethal electric weapon or device that is designed solely for defensive purposes.
    (3) Any person violating this section commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
    http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/.../0790.053.html

    You are only justified to use deadly force in self defense (reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm) or to prevent a forcible felony. Burglary, by itself, is not a forcible felony. You could very well go to jail and never be allowed to carry a weapon again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beyond Belief View Post
    Thank you for determining at the this time all should be considered victims.
    And I want to remind everyone looking a past photos doesn't shed light on anything.
    Ted Bundy fooled many with his good looks and charm.
    That would be true of everyone. Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, as a former co-worker had provided this description of GZ. You just never know. jmo
    A lie will go round the world before the truth gets its pants on - Charles Spurgeon

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    Speaking of suspensions...and what kids get them...

    My entire Senior class was suspends for 3 days because of a prank against the rival football team that no one would own up to. Just because a suspension happens it's not always for something "bad"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Old Owl View Post
    m00c0w -

    I re-read what your post was and maybe this is what you meant.

    No, at the point in the example - dude breaking into neighbor's window - me with gun (let's say in my driveway) and I yell "STOP - I HAVE A GUN" - no, I'm really not in fear of my life - not at that point. Why would I be - I have a gun and its trained right at the subject of that "deadly force".

    Now, if example 2 and that person pulls his own gun - Imma duckin' - but I'm not going to return fire until he fires first and yes, I could very easliy end up dead - that happens everyday - I don't move quick enough and the dude gets off a lucky shot.

    So, I guess my answer to your post was yes, you're right. I'm not in deadly fear of my life at that moment - which is also why I'm not pulling that trigger. Why would I be? Dude is across the street - trying to climb in through a window.


    Is that what you were getting at?




    JMHO
    Check this statue WOO.

    790.10 Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.

    http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/...s/0790.10.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by lisalei321 View Post
    Speaking of suspensions...and what kids get them...

    My entire Senior class was suspends for 3 days because of a prank against the rival football team that no one would own up to. Just because a suspension happens it's not always for something "bad"

    Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk
    Except we know why Trayvon was suspended.

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    I am sorry, I am new to this case. Was there an autopsy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkflamingo View Post
    I am not sure I understand how you can characterize TM as a "nice kid" because he looks sweet in the horseback riding photo or the one with the girl in the last thread, but on the flip side, you can be enraged at GZ for thinking the worst about seeing a strange boy walking around his neighborhood.

    You are summing up based on the way someone looks just like GZ did, but this does not mean ANYTHING about character. Have you read TM's twitter accounts? He was not a nice kid imo.
    Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion. I could care less what was on Trayvon's twitter account just as I could care less what was on Zimmerman's if he had one. That's completely irrelevant to the facts that took place on the evening of 02/26/2012. I can't speak for anyone else but when I see pictures of Trayvon, I see a whole future full of promise gone down the drain because of the actions of one man who decided it was okay to play God.



    ~jmo~


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    Quote Originally Posted by Marah View Post
    I am sorry, I am new to this case. Was their an autopsy?
    Yes.but we don't know the results.
    If there's hink....there must be stink.

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    I'm going to say it: this case will end up exactly where the duke lacrosse case did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marah View Post
    I am sorry, I am new to this case. Was their an autopsy?
    Yes but the results have not been leaked yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Old Owl View Post
    m00c0w -

    I re-read what your post was and maybe this is what you meant.

    No, at the point in the example - dude breaking into neighbor's window - me with gun (let's say in my driveway) and I yell "STOP - I HAVE A GUN" - no, I'm really not in fear of my life - not at that point. Why would I be - I have a gun and its trained right at the subject of that "deadly force".

    Now, if example 2 and that person pulls his own gun - Imma duckin' - but I'm not going to return fire until he fires first and yes, I could very easliy end up dead - that happens everyday - I don't move quick enough and the dude gets off a lucky shot.

    So, I guess my answer to your post was yes, you're right. I'm not in deadly fear of my life at that moment - which is also why I'm not pulling that trigger. Why would I be? Dude is across the street - trying to climb in through a window.


    Is that what you were getting at?




    JMHO
    Merely pointing your weapon at someone is considered a deadly use of force. You've introduced an instrument considered a deadly weapon into your usage of force. Whether it's used or not is entirely irrelevant.

    ETA: After looking at the Florida justifiable use of force law some more, I see two things going on. First, you have to have the person committing a forcible felony to use deadly force. Apparently, burglary is considered a forcible felony in Florida (crimes against property are not in Georgia). However, deadly use of force is defined as actually firing the weapon at or around the person, not displaying the weapon menacingly. I'm not entirely sure you would actually be covered under that statute given those definitions.

    One thing you hear over and over and over again is that you only draw your weapon when you intend to shoot. No other time. To draw your weapon and not shoot indicates that you had no reasonable fear of your life, and that you were not sure a forcible felony that required a deadly use of force was taking place. It casts the perception that you doubted your own actions, and that you weren't confident in using deadly force enough. So why draw the weapon in the first place? You may not get arrested for it; it is at the discretion of the officer in most cases. However, you may find yourself answering some tough questions. I'd just leave the gun out of it until absolutely necessary, to be honest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marah View Post
    I am sorry, I am new to this case. Was their an autopsy?
    There is, not released yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iluvmua View Post
    I'm going to say it: this case will end up exactly where the duke lacrosse case did.

    It can't.......the cases are in no way what so ever similar.
    If there's hink....there must be stink.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Marah View Post
    I am sorry, I am new to this case. Was their an autopsy?
    Yes, there was an autopsy. Nancy Grace said so last night, and it was confirmed by the funeral director.

    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/nationa...Y6dlsGi5HD9bWL

    Richard Kurtz told CNN's Nancy Grace on Wednesday that Martin had a gunshot wound to his upper chest, but any other injury would have been difficult to detect because an autopsy was performed on the teen's body before he received it.

    "As for his hands and knuckles, I don't see any evidence he had been fighting anybody," Kurtz said.

    A Volusia County spokesman, Dave Byron, has confirmed that an autopsy was performed by them, but those results could take more than 30 days to be released. Results will not be unsealed until the investigation becomes "inactive."

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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkflamingo View Post
    I am not sure I understand how you can characterize TM as a "nice kid" because he looks sweet in the horseback riding photo or the one with the girl in the last thread, but on the flip side, you can be enraged at GZ for thinking the worst about seeing a strange boy walking around his neighborhood.

    You are summing up based on the way someone looks just like GZ did, but this does not mean ANYTHING about character. Have you read TM's twitter accounts? He was not a nice kid imo.
    I haven't read his twitter accounts but neither had GZ. His twitter doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if he was a nice kid in general or not. GZ didn't know whether he was or not.

    Even truly truly bad guys whose Twitter would shock everybody have the right to walk down the street without getting shot when they're not up to anything illegal.


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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkflamingo View Post
    I am not sure I understand how you can characterize TM as a "nice kid" because he looks sweet in the horseback riding photo or the one with the girl in the last thread, but on the flip side, you can be enraged at GZ for thinking the worst about seeing a strange boy walking around his neighborhood.

    You are summing up based on the way someone looks just like GZ did, but this does not mean ANYTHING about character. Have you read TM's twitter accounts? He was not a nice kid imo.
    I don't care if TM was a rotten kid. GZ did not know this and GZ is not a judge, jury and executioner.


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    Quote Originally Posted by lisalei321 View Post
    Speaking of suspensions...and what kids get them...

    My entire Senior class was suspends for 3 days because of a prank against the rival football team that no one would own up to. Just because a suspension happens it's not always for something "bad"

    Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk
    And none of Trayvon's suspensions were for violent reasons.

    Huge leap to say those suspensions would make it easy to see how he could be the aggressor. And then ignore all of GZ's real aggression issues.

    My son was suspended for being in a closed off section of school, he went around the gate that wasn't fully closed and locked. He's in grad school now.

    JMHO


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