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  1. #1
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    Why was Karr so important to Lacy??

    Ok so we know that JMK was/is the resident nutter on the JBR case, but why was he so important to ML and why did she feel the need to go the lenghts of getting him from Thailand to US? And whay was she so desperate to exhonerate the Ramsey's?

    Right off the bat i would like to say that from all the transcripts and interviews i have seen including the highly publicesed return the the US he NEVER actually admited to murdering JBR; he said he was with her when she died and that her death was an accident. It was one of the Thai officials that said Karr had stated that he had attempted to kidnap her then strangled her when it all went wrong and as far as i am aware there is no official confirmation that Karr said this.


    Mary Lacey's relentless pursuit of Karr was a way to claw back some of the reputation that was so severly damaged by this case through media leaks and other things, that the Boulder DA needed a 'scape goat' to clear the family and put this awful crime to bed once and for all her downfall was none of the evidence matched Karr and his supposed confession that by rights isn't a confession at all. I asked a police friend of my grandmothers if what Karr said was deemed a confession and he told me that it would be classified as a partial disclosure that needed futher investigation.

    I started looking into Karr's background to try and create a better picture of who this man is and why he would try to tie himself to one of the most notorious crimes of our time.

    There was a significantly large age gap between Karr's mother and father and was the same large gap between the father and his second wife both marriges broke down and Karr's early life was somewhat turbulant as his mother believed that Karr was possesed by deamons and tried to burn him alive as an infant she was subesquently sectioned. Karr moved around quite a bit as a child also. Karr was twice married once to a 13 year old girl whom he took out of state to marry her and lied about her age, the girls sister said Karr abused her sister in everyway possible; the girl applied to the courts for an annulmet of said marrige on the grounds she feared for her life at the time of the wedding. Karr's second marrige was to a 16 year old girl whom he had gotten pregnant ( twin girls were born in the september after the marrige but died the same day).

    Karr and his second wife had three boys in quick succession but divorced in 2001 after Karr was arrested for 5 misdemeanour counts of possesing child pornography, for which he recieved probation and the court records were sealed. Karr had a job as a teacher in 14 different schools some of which he was accused of molestation and impropriety with minors. He also had a licence for daycare with up to 6 childre at a time ranging in age from birth to 14, Karr eventually relocated to Thailand where he taught at a school and did daycare for a family and was eventually arrested for child abuse by the Thai authorities it was then he instigated he was linked to the death of Jonbenet and the information filtered back to Lacey who had Karr extradited back to the US, Karr had also been corresponding for 4 years with Michael Tracey the U of C proffessor about his involvement with the emails becoming more and more graphic. Karr is currently living as the trams-gender woman named Alexis.

    Sorry for rehasing most of the stuff we already know but it is nessasary i promise.

    Karr , being raised in a family where the dominat male is undertaking relationships with girls significantly younger thatn him taught Karr that this was acceptable behaviour. He has an extroverted personality so he craves attention and needs to be recognised for anything he does no matter how grotesque the act is and so would not have kept quiet about being involved in JBRs death for so long he wouldn't have been able to keep a lid on it and the more media intrest grew the more difficult he would have found it to contain himself. For someone with his personality type any attention is good attention.

    Karr driven by an all consuming obsession felt the compulsion to be connected with JBR and possibly PR too as in his emails he never wanted to conversate with John just Patsy possibly becsause it would have been easier to taunt the emotional Patsy where as john would have been a tougher nut to crack. Karr's obsession with her ran so deep he fabricated a relationship between him and Jonbenet to the point where he truly believed he was an importand part of her life, Jonbenet consumed Karr to the point where he lived and breathed JBR.

    Even now as people discuss this case over the net or in person Karr's name is mentioned so he forever immoralized as the crackpot wierdo that claimed to kill JBR and has a perchant for little girls.

    If anyone has been able to stomach reading his trash or watching his interviews you will see that he never says "yep i'm your guy i killed her i did this, this and this" him knowing details of the murder are irrelevant as most of us know the same if not more that he does, he skirts invasive questions with "i'm not answering that" or " i can't say" he just repetes that he was with her when she died and thes is the most important line in his whole vile speech because being with some one when they die doesn't make you a killer it means that you were witness to them dying, and when he says it was an accident well that is the general consensus between RDI and even some IDI say gthe same.

    Karr was asked if he was innocent and he said no, but as he said he was only with her when she died the only thing he is guilty of is failing to report an accident.

    Getting back to ML she was one contradiction after another riding the coat tails of AH. Hunters preformance on this case is laughable his unethical and unprofessionl demeanour futher damaged a botched case and Lacy just picked up where he left off, Karr was a damage limitation excersise at the expence of the tax payer to put this case to bed and forget about it. She took a gamble on Karr and it was an epic backfire and was on show for the whole world to see because by then the whole world wanted answers.

    Undoubtely Karr is an active predatiry pedophile regsrdless of his/her sex and should never be let within spitting distance of a child of any age but the point id that a district attorneys office were praying that DNA was a match or his writing matched the ransome note so that they could scapegoat an innocent man ( I know he didd't do much to discoursge them); But the sheer eagerness of a DA to extradite someone who gave no confession or DNA, handwrting to make her self look good and clear a family of suspicion was stupidity at it greatest; she went on to say that unless you were there at the time no one can be cleared beyond reasonable doubt forgive me if the quote isn't 100% accurate.

    There seemed to be an element of point scoring because the BPD had no suspects except the Ramsey's and the DAs office had seemingly caught the perfect perp. Bottom line, Lacy needed Karr to be the perp for a bucket load of reasons such as; the image of the big bad bogey man was real and he killed JBR, to put the case to bed once and for all and to possibly futher Lacy's political career. Karr was too good to be true, since when does the culprit of the most publicized murder fall into the lap of the authorities? THEY DON'T!! Lacy tried to pull the wool over the worlds eyes and failed.
    I say what i mean please or offend

  2. #2
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    Lacy was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Karr claimed he was involved in the death of JBR. Had she done nothing, she would have been criticized for that. I believe she was working with California authorities, who wanted him back in the US to prosecute him on pornography charges but they lost the files.

    Lacy did the right thing when the touch DNA revealed it was not the Ramseys. They were persecuted by the Boulder Police--especially Steve Thomas. Why he wasn't brought up on civil rights violations is a mystery to me.

    The police did not have evidence to prosecute the Ramseys---easy for them to come up with their circumstantial case, but the DA's office were the ones that had to convict them. Even the Grand Jury was bogus...it was only done because the Governor requested it when Steve Thomas quit. It was a waste of money. The Grand Jury sometimes is used to try the case to see how it would play out in court. The DNA was a huge issue for them. Double jeopardy would have applied. There is plenty of expultory evidence when it comes to the Ramseys.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maikai View Post
    Lacy was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Karr claimed he was involved in the death of JBR. Had she done nothing, she would have been criticized for that. I believe she was working with California authorities, who wanted him back in the US to prosecute him on pornography charges but they lost the files.

    Lacy did the right thing when the touch DNA revealed it was not the Ramseys. They were persecuted by the Boulder Police--especially Steve Thomas. Why he wasn't brought up on civil rights violations is a mystery to me.

    The police did not have evidence to prosecute the Ramseys---easy for them to come up with their circumstantial case, but the DA's office were the ones that had to convict them. Even the Grand Jury was bogus...it was only done because the Governor requested it when Steve Thomas quit. It was a waste of money. The Grand Jury sometimes is used to try the case to see how it would play out in court. The DNA was a huge issue for them. Double jeopardy would have applied. There is plenty of expultory evidence when it comes to the Ramseys.
    The DNA was a huge issue for them.
    For who? Are you speaking of the "touch dna" ?
    I'm just playing detective here. I have no idea who killed JonBenet. It's just an opinion.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maikai View Post
    Lacy was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Karr claimed he was involved in the death of JBR. Had she done nothing, she would have been criticized for that. I believe she was working with California authorities, who wanted him back in the US to prosecute him on pornography charges but they lost the files.

    Lacy did the right thing when the touch DNA revealed it was not the Ramseys. They were persecuted by the Boulder Police--especially Steve Thomas. Why he wasn't brought up on civil rights violations is a mystery to me.

    The police did not have evidence to prosecute the Ramseys---easy for them to come up with their circumstantial case, but the DA's office were the ones that had to convict them. Even the Grand Jury was bogus...it was only done because the Governor requested it when Steve Thomas quit. It was a waste of money. The Grand Jury sometimes is used to try the case to see how it would play out in court. The DNA was a huge issue for them. Double jeopardy would have applied. There is plenty of expultory evidence when it comes to the Ramseys.
    The police did have enough evidence- remember we have seen only about 10% of it. But the police can't issue a warrant for an arrest, the DA has to do that. And the DA here took orders from the defense attorneys.
    Lacy did NOT to the right thing for JB. Even she herself said that NO one is ever excluded as a suspect UNTIL and UNLSS a suspect is named . She also added that the suspect also must be convicted beyond a reasonable doubt.
    So her "exoneration" of the Rs was lip service and done simply to fulfill her promise to Patsy to "find the killer" before she died, Patsy was dying, so she had to "find" someone.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    The police did have enough evidence- remember we have seen only about 10% of it. But the police can't issue a warrant for an arrest, the DA has to do that. And the DA here took orders from the defense attorneys.
    Lacy did NOT to the right thing for JB. Even she herself said that NO one is ever excluded as a suspect UNTIL and UNLSS a suspect is named . She also added that the suspect also must be convicted beyond a reasonable doubt.
    So her "exoneration" of the Rs was lip service and done simply to fulfill her promise to Patsy to "find the killer" before she died, Patsy was dying, so she had to "find" someone.
    DeeDee249,
    Such an apt phrase.


    .

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maikai View Post
    Lacy was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Karr claimed he was involved in the death of JBR. Had she done nothing, she would have been criticized for that. I believe she was working with California authorities, who wanted him back in the US to prosecute him on pornography charges but they lost the files.

    Lacy did the right thing when the touch DNA revealed it was not the Ramseys. They were persecuted by the Boulder Police--especially Steve Thomas. Why he wasn't brought up on civil rights violations is a mystery to me.

    The police did not have evidence to prosecute the Ramseys---easy for them to come up with their circumstantial case, but the DA's office were the ones that had to convict them. Even the Grand Jury was bogus...it was only done because the Governor requested it when Steve Thomas quit. It was a waste of money. The Grand Jury sometimes is used to try the case to see how it would play out in court. The DNA was a huge issue for them. Double jeopardy would have applied. There is plenty of expultory evidence when it comes to the Ramseys.


    BINGO!!!

    And now with more matching DNA to corroborate afterward.
    The discovery of additional matching DNA in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case is important information that raises more questions in the search for JonBenet's killer. The BPD concurs with the Boulder District Attorney's Office that this is a significant finding. The PD has continued to look diligently for the source of the foreign DNA, and to date, we have compared DNA samples taken from more than 200 people. Finding the source of the DNA is key to helping us determine who killed JonBenet

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy23 View Post
    BINGO!!!

    And now with more matching DNA to corroborate afterward.
    There is actually NO evidence clearing the Rs. As we KNOW (though some here refuse to accept it), DNA clears NO ONE until it is linked to a named source.. Actually, Lacy made that same claim herself. It's been posted here many times and we've all seen it.

    Especially in the case of skin cell transfer (Touch DNA) , there is a much wider possibility of it having nothing to do with the crime.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy23 View Post
    BINGO!!!

    And now with more matching DNA to corroborate afterward.
    Roy, I'm interested in your thoughts on Tricia's teasing of late where she's saying something is happening this year to counter the stories JR has been saying.

    Any responses or waiting 'til it happens?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrishope View Post
    For who? Are you speaking of the "touch dna" ?
    No...they didn't have the touch DNA then.....it was the other DNA mixed with blood and under her nails. Several on the Grand Jury had scientific backgrounds.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    The police did have enough evidence- remember we have seen only about 10% of it. But the police can't issue a warrant for an arrest, the DA has to do that. And the DA here took orders from the defense attorneys.
    Lacy did NOT to the right thing for JB. Even she herself said that NO one is ever excluded as a suspect UNTIL and UNLSS a suspect is named . She also added that the suspect also must be convicted beyond a reasonable doubt.
    So her "exoneration" of the Rs was lip service and done simply to fulfill her promise to Patsy to "find the killer" before she died, Patsy was dying, so she had to "find" someone.
    Everything I read was circumstantial. The handwriting experts could be refuted by the defense...then there was "Foster" who would have been torn apart by the defense. Lou Smit came up with several pieces of intruder evidence--and then you have which one do you charge? This was not a winning case.

    I read some cases several years ago, where an arrest warrant was issued based on DNA. They didn't have a name---just the profile. I believe the reason was if there was ever a match, they could arrest the person on the spot. I would have liked to see that happen in the Ramsey case. Lacy was not a Ramsey lover in the beginning.


  11. #11
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    It wasnt several it was more like a couple but I wont split hairs. One is a nutritionist that reads scientific journals and mysteries and the other I'll give you is a chemical engineer (pharmaceutics) and reads "obscure chemical engineering journals." Neither was mentioned as a DNA expert unlike the guy in bold blue He has served as an expert witness on firearms in product liability trials.

    I'll give you the one guy JONATHAN N. WEBB but the nutritionist probably didnt know a whole lot more than the rest of us....

    Just dont want folks thinking the jury was stacked with scientists...


    1999-10-14: Grand jury members

    http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ram.../14jurywe.html

    Grand jury members

    JAMES A. PLESE, foreman
    Age: 60
    Residence: Boulder

    About him: During jury questioning in April 1998, Plese said he was not excited about serving on a grand jury, but "it's difficult to complain about the system and not participate in it." The architect of Boulder's annual Fourth of July fireworks display for more than 20 years, Plese is a licensed pyrotechnician and an employee of the Public Service Co. of Colorado. He was born and raised in Pueblo and moved to Boulder in 1969. He's a member of Downtown Boulder Inc. and the Boulder Chamber of Commerce. He has a daughter who is a biophysicist and another who is studying to be an attorney. Plese said he knew both Boulder County District Attorney Alex Hunter and Chief Trial Deputy Peter Hofstrom from being involved in legal action stemming from a school bus accident in which one of his daughters was injured (he sued after the accident).

    LORETTA P. RESNIKOFF, assistant forewoman
    Age: 40
    Residence: Boulder

    About her: Resnikoff is an accountant and has two children. She was a University of Colorado student in 1977 and became a resident of Boulder in 1981. The daughter of a career Navy man, Resnikoff was born in Japan. She is the youngest of eight children and grew up in California. She enjoys reading history books and is a member of a book club.

    ELIZABETH M. ANNECHARICO
    Age: 56
    Residence: Boulder

    About her: Annecharico moved to Boulder two years ago and is retired. She listens to National Public Radio, watches news-magazine shows such as "Dateline" and "60 Minutes" and enjoys fishing.

    BARBARA A. McGRATH-ARNOLD
    Age:57
    Residence: Boulder

    About her:A Coloradan since 1964, McGrath-Arnold moved from Fort Collins to Boulder in 1967. She likes swimming and walking, and she holds a real estate license.

    MICHELLE C. CZOPEK
    Age: 40
    Residence: Superior

    About her: Czopek came to Boulder County in 1985. She is a nutritionist, works part time at a local health science center and has two children. She listens to NPR, reads scientific journals and mysteries, and enjoys tennis and running. Czopek is originally from Evanston, Ill.


    FRANCES E. DIEKMAN
    Age: 60
    Residence: Longmont

    About her: Diekman, a mother of three and grandmother of three, is a Longmont native. Diekman has been a fan of the "Judge Judy" and "People's Court" television programs. She worked in the county's probation office years ago. She likes fishing, camping, sewing, crafts and reading.

    JOSEPHINE M. HAMPTON
    Age: 63
    Residence: Lafayette

    About her: Hampton was born in Burlington, Iowa, and moved here in 1982. She has three children and three grandchildren. She told prosecutor Peter Hofstrom that her career in management had taught her how to keep a secret. She enjoys photography, watching sports, reading fiction and listening to light rock on the radio.

    MARTIN W. KORDAS JR.
    Age: 65
    Residence: Lafayette

    About him: Kordas is a Connecticut native and war veteran who served in the Navy's shore patrol. He has served as an expert witness on firearms in product liability trials. A Boulder County resident since 1990, he enjoys outdoor sports and reading technical books.

    SUSAN F. LeFEVER
    Age: 45
    Residence: Boulder

    About her: LeFever told prosecutor Hofstrom she had prior experience as a juror, several years ago in an assault case. She moved here in 1990 from California and works for a nonprofit organization. She listens to NPR and watches science fiction on television. She is active in the Sierra Club and also has participated in the Coalition for Restraint in Campaign Spending.

    MARTIN K. PIERCE
    Age: 38
    Residence: Longmont

    About him: Pierce is a former utility company service technician and a 30-year resident of Colorado who grew up on a farm in Nebraska. He belongs to a Longmont Harley-Davidson owners group and likes country-western and rock music. He said he worried about putting someone on trial who doesn't deserve to be. "That would stick in my mind."

    TRACEY L. VALLAD
    Age: 39
    Residence: Longmont

    About her: Vallad moved here in 1960, is a single mother of two teenagers and goes to night school. An outdoors enthusiast, she likes biking and reading fiction, magazines and newspapers. She listens to rock and classical music.

    JONATHAN N. WEBB
    Age: 32
    Residence: Louisville

    About him: A University of Colorado graduate student in chemical engineering, Webb moved to Boulder in 1995 after working for Eli Lilly and Co. in Indianapolis. He has a graduate degree from Georgia Tech. He said he reads "obscure chemical engineering journals." He is involved in a civil lawsuit in Indiana with a former tenant.

    October 14, 1999
    There are things that we don't want to happen but have to accept, things we don't want to know but have to learn, and people we can't live without but have to let go.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maikai View Post
    No...they didn't have the touch DNA then.....it was the other DNA mixed with blood and under her nails. Several on the Grand Jury had scientific backgrounds.
    Maikai,
    Nice try, but does not work on this board, members are far too savvy.

    Whats wrong: Its both an argument from authority which is a fallacy, masking the argument from ignorance, another fallacy. The latter because if the person who has a scientific background, has no knowlege of dna technicalities, then they are operating blind, just like everyone else.

    The presence of touch-dna on JonBenet's person is not sufficient to demonstrate that there was ever an intruder in the Ramsey household.

    That touch-dna may have been transferred by another Ramsey at any point prior to her death.

    Any IDI has to rule this option out by providing the necessary forensic evidence.

    the other DNA mixed with blood and under her nails.
    What are you talking about here. The other dna mixed with blood was not typed, it was determined to be biological material. That is it is not DNA, but is likely to be touch dna.

    Your posts seem quite confused evidentially, are you certain you are pursuing the corect theory?


    .

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    Maikai,
    Nice try, but does not work on this board, members are far too savvy.

    Whats wrong: Its both an argument from authority which is a fallacy, masking the argument from ignorance, another fallacy. The latter because if the person who has a scientific background, has no knowlege of dna technicalities, then they are operating blind, just like everyone else.

    The presence of touch-dna on JonBenet's person is not sufficient to demonstrate that there was ever an intruder in the Ramsey household.

    That touch-dna may have been transferred by another Ramsey at any point prior to her death.

    Any IDI has to rule this option out by providing the necessary forensic evidence.


    What are you talking about here. The other dna mixed with blood was not typed, it was determined to be biological material. That is it is not DNA, but is likely to be touch dna.

    Your posts seem quite confused evidentially, are you certain you are pursuing the corect theory?


    .
    No Sir or Maam,

    You have the burden of proof, not IDI. We have a sample in CODIS that meets the strict guidelines. Whatever the source of the DNA, it was found to be pertinent by The DA and Boulder LE. I know you guys don't want to believe it.
    The discovery of additional matching DNA in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case is important information that raises more questions in the search for JonBenet's killer. The BPD concurs with the Boulder District Attorney's Office that this is a significant finding. The PD has continued to look diligently for the source of the foreign DNA, and to date, we have compared DNA samples taken from more than 200 people. Finding the source of the DNA is key to helping us determine who killed JonBenet

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderllama View Post
    Roy, I'm interested in your thoughts on Tricia's teasing of late where she's saying something is happening this year to counter the stories JR has been saying.

    Any responses or waiting 'til it happens?

    I will see it when I believe it. Anything that solves this case, I am for. As far as any stories about what JR says, I am not interested. Stories about police catching a killer I am interested in. Even if it were a Ramsey.
    The discovery of additional matching DNA in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case is important information that raises more questions in the search for JonBenet's killer. The BPD concurs with the Boulder District Attorney's Office that this is a significant finding. The PD has continued to look diligently for the source of the foreign DNA, and to date, we have compared DNA samples taken from more than 200 people. Finding the source of the DNA is key to helping us determine who killed JonBenet

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy23 View Post
    No Sir or Maam,

    You have the burden of proof, not IDI. We have a sample in CODIS that meets the strict guidelines. Whatever the source of the DNA, it was found to be pertinent by The DA and Boulder LE. I know you guys don't want to believe it.
    Roy23,
    Dont go there pal! If you know so much about the DNA, tell the board what type it is: Semen, Saliva?

    Any IDI must demonstrate that the DNA found on JonBenet arrived there via some other route than via another Ramsey. There were four in the house at one point, all are potential vehicles for DNA transfer.

    IDI must identify DNA from a known suspect and demonstrate that this suspect has no alibi for the night JonBenet was killed.

    Simply identifying a suspect is not sufficient since there may an innocent explanation for the DNA, e.g. environmental cross-transfer.

    RDI has more evidence than IDI, since IDI theories offer no evidence at all, that is zero because there was no intruder!

    The DA has not told us if there is any Ramsey DNA on JonBenet, particularly on her groin region, how come, is it a secret?


    .

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