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Thread: Why was Karr so important to Lacy??

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    That's some of what I was going to tell BOESP, UKGuy. But, by the same token, maybe LE rolling out some of that evidence is what JR and Lin Wood want. Sometimes, when it comes to lawsuits, it doesn't matter if you win or lose as long as you drag the other guy's sins into the light.

    Let me tell you guys a little story. About ten years ago, FOXNews did a blurb on this case. Two years later, the Rs filed suit against them. But, it didn't go. The judge in the case, Figa, threw the case out as meritless (which it was), and even chastised the Rs for trying to silence people who disagreed with them.

    But, make no mistake: while I agree with Judge Figa's reasoning, I ALMOST wish the case HAD gone forward, and I'll tell you why: FOXNews had stated publically and in documents filed in court that they were seeking to gain full access to the official case files--ie, they were not going to repeat Hoffman's mistakes. DA Mary Lacy said that she would fight them tooth and nail to keep it under wraps.

    Since the case did not go forward, there was no need for Lacy and FOXNews to continue their tug-of-war. And I think that's a bad thing, because I think it would have been interesting to see just WHAT legal argument Lacy would have made in court to justify keeping the files' content secret.

    The reason I say all of this is because it falls into the PATTERN I was trying to tell Roy about: namely, that there seems to be SOMETHING that the Boulder DA's office does NOT want to come out! Mary Lacy's refusal to allow access to the files seems in keeping with many actions of her predecessor, Alex Hunter, such as his allowing Lou Smit to blackmail him into keeping the evidence he stole and into going before the Grand Jury; his calling the Grand Jury only to make sure that the Governor didn't take the case away from him; and his pulling the rug out from under the Grand Jury before they could vote so he wouldn't have to, as Henry Lee put it, "confess his own sins."

    Any thoughts, folks?
    SuperDave,
    The reason I say all of this is because it falls into the PATTERN I was trying to tell Roy about: namely, that there seems to be SOMETHING that the Boulder DA's office does NOT want to come out! Mary Lacy's refusal to allow access to the files seems in keeping with many actions of her predecessor, Alex Hunter, such as his allowing Lou Smit to blackmail him into keeping the evidence he stole and into going before the Grand Jury; his calling the Grand Jury only to make sure that the Governor didn't take the case away from him; and his pulling the rug out from under the Grand Jury before they could vote so he wouldn't have to, as Henry Lee put it, "confess his own sins."

    Any thoughts, folks?
    ITA, but where to start, the DA's office will be knee-deep in document archives, stamped confidential, DO NOT OPEN.

    Two subjects that look like they need a good picking over are: Conspiracy and BDI.

    With Lou Smit gone, the details about all the PI activity might never be revealed. Then there is that charmed circle of legal eagles, some of whom sit on the boards of other friends companies. What a nice cosy setup, patently foxnews has not paid them a visit.

    It could be BDI and the DA's office feel morally they have the right to do whatever it takes?


    .

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  3. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    ITA, but where to start, the DA's office will be knee-deep in document archives, stamped confidential, DO NOT OPEN.

    With Lou Smit gone, the details about all the PI activity might never be revealed.
    I think Lou knew a lot of things. If he did, he took them with him.

    It could be BDI and the DA's office feel morally they have the right to do whatever it takes?
    Hard to say. There are people like that, certainly.
    All posts made by me are MY exclusive property, and are NOT to be used or reproduced without my permission. DAVE SMASH THIEVES!

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  5. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy23 View Post
    If they thought it was a Ramsey, they would still be singing like canaries.
    Interesting idea, my friend. I would counter by saying that still do think it was a Ramsey, but are keeping silent for two reasons:

    1) As you mentioned, they don't want JR to file a lawsuit and get their hands on confidential file material;

    2) More to the point, I don't think the Boulderites or much of the country CARES anymore.

    And it's the second point that brings me around to what I am about to say now. Smurf86 started this thread by asking why did Lacy need JMK so badly? The answer, as I see it, is politics.

    Last week, I was watching FOX News and Alan Dershowitz was on, talking about the debacle that is the Trayvon Martin-George Zimmerman case. As he is generally wont to do when interviewed, Dersh expressed his belief that the US should follow the example set by European nations and appoint DAs rather than elect them. The idea being that this would remove DAs from the perils of political motivations. Much as I hate to agree with the man, he made a solid case: all too often, DAs focus more on being politicians and being re-elected than they do on actually serving justice. The idea of getting elected based on promises to incarcerate people offends Dersh (big surprise!).

    That's certainly true in the Martin-Zimmerman case, where the prosecutor filed charges SPECIFICALLY because of the threat of mob violence a la Rodney King. Going back further than that, Mike Nifong's continued pursuit of the Duke Lacrosse players was motivated by his desire to be re-elected.

    Sidebar: this may be why Dersh was one of Alex Hunter's biggest supporters back in the day. Here's what he said on Larry King back in 2000:

    I think that Alex Hunter is, although he's become criticized, I think he's a constitutional hero. He's a man who has made a decision to take the barbs and the slings, and there are going to be many, because it's much easier to bring the case. It would take no courage to bring the prosecution, and then if the jury acquitted, blame it on the jury. But it takes a lot of courage for a district attorney to bite the bullet and take the hard decision, and say there was a murder, maybe it's even likely certain people did it, but likely isn't enough.

    Believe me, the idea of an appointed prosecutor not subject to political pressures is, as I see it, exactly what THIS case needs. And some of us, Tricia most notably, have been trying for years now to get exactly that: to petition the governor of CO to take this case away from the DA's office and turn it over to a special prosecutor.

    And I say this because it's obvious to anyone with eyes to see that POLITICS is what has crippled this case, specifically the DA's putting their personal politics above the need for justice.

    And it's not just me saying that. On that same Larry King broadcast was a man named Ben Thompson. At the time, he was competing with Mary Lacy and Trip DeMuth in the Democratic Primary to be the Democratic candidate for Boulder DA when AH announced he was retiring. Here's what he said:

    It's political, the reason that it hasn't been prosecuted. And we have a district attorney's office that is more political than it is a prosecutor's office. I'm sitting here listening to those two talk, or those three talk, and it's strange to me that Alex sounds more like a defense attorney than a prosecutor, and that's part of the problem. Let me say there is a cancer in our DA's office, and whenever anybody points it out, what happens is they attack whoever points it out instead of addressing the issue and trying to solve the problem.

    And this man is NOT a Republican! He's a DEMOCRAT! He belongs to the SAME political party as Alex Hunter and Mary Lacy. That should tell you something. Just as it should tell you something that Hal Haddon, the head lawyer hired by John Ramsey, was a MAJOR player in the Democratic Party in CO, with connections to the then-governor, Roy Romer and continuing on right up to the President of the United States, Bill Clinton.

    So, right now, I'm sure a bunch of you are thinking, "what does that have to do with Lacy going after Karr?" The answer is, EVERYTHING! For someone like her, Karr was just what the doctor ordered.

    From Day One, the DA had resisted efforts to build a case against the Ramseys, focusing instead on trying to find some pervert drifter to hang it on. After all, if YOU were a DA known for weakness and making deals instead of cases who hadn't even taken a case to trial (much less won a conviction) in TEN YEARS, who would you rather try to "get" for this case in order to satisfy public craving for justice?

    Option A: some indigent with bad looks, an unsympathetic past, and court-appointed attorneys.

    Option B: A classy, beautiful former Miss America contestant and mother whose husband is:

    A) An executive in one of the most powerful and politically-connected military contracts in the world AND a major source of employment and taxpayer revenue in CO;

    B) wealthy enough to afford only the finest say-anything-for-a-buck experts;

    and C) represented by a law firm so powerful that they essentially control the state (and, as such, your CAREER) AND just happen to partners with you and your assistants in some mega-money land development projects.

    Yeah, I know which one I'd pick, too!

    Enter JMK. He was PERFECT, practically made-to-order. A perverted freak who LOOKED and TALKED like a perverted freak. And best of all, he SAID he did it! He was the perfect "patsy," no pun intended. No jury would lose sleep over sending him to the electric chair. Neither, presumably, would Lacy. I'm sure she would have justified it to herself on the usual grounds: "well, he may not have done THIS crime, but he's done OTHER things that deserve punishment." He certainly wouldn't have objected to going to the electric chair. That's what he WANTED! He WANTED to take the rap! He practically put his OWN head in the noose.

    Sending JMK to dinner in hell would have given Mary Lacy everything she wanted: it would have made her a hero in the public eye. It would have given her revenge against all the police who rejected her ideas and all the media figures who attacked and ridiculed her, and it would have validated her personal politics and prejudices.

    Folks, I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I have no doubt that Mary Lacy would have sent JMK away for this, regardless of evidence, IF she thought she could have gotten away with it. And she TRIED, let us not forget! When his DNA tests came back negative, Lacy was FIRST to do a complete reversal on the DNA, which she had touted for years as a case-breaker and say that it might not be relevant after all. The problem was that, BECAUSE she, and her goon squad, and her pals, the Rs and Lin Wood, had been trumpeting the DNA horn so long, her reversal came off looking like exactly what it was: a hollow, cheap and desperate attempt to salvage her project.

    Which, in true book-end style, brings me back to what I said at the beginning, about how no one cares anymore. JMK should have been Mary Lacy's swan song (or, for Irishmen like me, her banshee's wail). She SHOULD have resigned like Nixon did after Watergate, if for no other reason than to preserve what little dignity she and her office had LEFT. And failing that, she should have been HOUNDED out of office, either by the citizens in a recall election, or by the governor, who should have yanked the case away from her and handed it over to a special appointed prosecutor. But none of that happened, because after ten years, nobody cared anymore.

    Oh, there's one other thing I'd say. It doesn't really pertain to JMK except to remind ourselves how ML got control of the case to start with. Roy said he was joking when he asked if the police were more interested in avoiding a lawsuit than they were in getting justice for JB. Well, it's no joke, because that's precisely how ML got control in the first place!

    In 2002, Lin Wood, the Ramseys' attorney, threatened to sue the police department if they didn't turn over the case to the DA's office, when he knew full well that Mary Lacy was sympathetic to his clients. He specifically said that he and his clients were trying to get the case handed over to an organization sympathetic to them.

    What kind of sleazy backroom deal is THAT?! I've never even heard of such a thing: a suspect's lawyer deciding who can and cannot investigate a homicide case? I'm not a legal expert, so I don't know if that could be constituted obstruction of justice, or collusion, or not, but it damn well ought to be a disbarring offense. As far as I know, it may be legal, but it can't be ethical. That kind of "investigation" may fly in places like Zimbabwe or North Korea, but this is America, and we're supposed to be better than that.

    For all of you out there (especially the IDIs) who are reading this, I would say two things:

    1) I admire your patience for reading through to the end.

    2) If you would like a deeper understanding of just how out-of-it the Boulder DA's office was in comparison to DAs around the rest of the country, then I suggest that you go back and read ST's book and specifically compare what the DA's office was doing with what the three "Dream Team" advisors--Rich Baer, Dan Hoffman, and Bob Miller--were doing. THEN, compare the DA in Boulder with the Grand Jury specialists--Michael Kane, Bruce Levin and Mitch Morrisey. I believe you will find it most enlightening.

    Now, if you'll all excuse me, I should wash the taste of flame and brimstone out of my mouth!
    All posts made by me are MY exclusive property, and are NOT to be used or reproduced without my permission. DAVE SMASH THIEVES!

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  7. #104
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    What can the Boulder DA or a special prosecutor really do at this point? Patsy is dead. And I would think the statue of limitations on the cover-up charge for John has to have ran out by now. The only thing I can think of is issuing a press release/letter explaining what happened that night. But I don't think it's that simple, and I would think that the 2008 letter clearing the Ramseys would cause big conflicts. IMO, if it was believed that JonBenet was killed by an intruder, there would be more effort today in finding her killer. Look at the Etan Patz case. But since the killer (IMO) is dead, and the man who helped with the cover-up has money and politics on his side, there really isn't much they can do.

    Also, about Mary Lacy not being forced to resign after JMK debacle, or a recall election....It's similar to how the approval rates for Congress are extremely low, yet the re-election rates are extremely high.

    There are many cases that are solved years later. Most of the public didn't care anymore, but that didn't stop LE from re-examining the case. Stan Garnett has been taking a second look, and even making progress, in other cold cases in Boulder. Cases are solved every day without pressure from the community. It sucks that Boulder isn't screaming for change and justice, but I don't think that's unusual for any cold case. Once it becomes clear that a case is going to go unsolved, I think most people just accept it.
    Last edited by eileenhawkeye; 05-24-2012 at 08:09 PM.

  8. #105
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    Well, JonBenet's case did lead to one change in Boulder:

    Prior to the Ramsey case, the union contract required that officers rotate through the detective division every three to five years. After the Ramsey case, the department renegotiated the contract so that a core unit of career detectives works major crimes. The sheriff's office also has a major crimes unit.
    Last edited by eileenhawkeye; 05-24-2012 at 08:10 PM.

  9. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by eileenhawkeye View Post
    What can the Boulder DA or a special prosecutor really do at this point? Patsy is dead. And I would think the statue of limitations on the cover-up charge for John has to have ran out by now.
    You're right on both counts. I'm not saying that a special prosecutor would do much good NOW so much as it would have done some good say, ten years ago. My point is that a special prosecutor would have been, if not immune, then at least far more resistant to the influences which crippled this investigation.

    The only thing I can think of is issuing a press release/letter explaining what happened that night. But I don't think it's that simple, and I would think that the 2008 letter clearing the Ramseys would cause big conflicts.
    Again, you're probably right.

    IMO, if it was believed that JonBenet was killed by an intruder, there would be more effort today in finding her killer. Look at the Etan Patz case. But since the killer (IMO) is dead, and the man who helped with the cover-up has money and politics on his side, there really isn't much they can do.
    I guess not. But, you never know, eileen: sometimes the right kind of pressure can solve a case better than a ton of forensic evidence.

    Also, about Mary Lacy not being forced to resign after JMK debacle, or a recall election....It's similar to how the approval rates for Congress are extremely low, yet the re-election rates are extremely high.
    I'll don't think I'll ever understand how politics works.

    There are many cases that are solved years later. Most of the public didn't care anymore, but that didn't stop LE from re-examining the case. Stan Garnett has been taking a second look, and even making progress, in other cold cases in Boulder. Cases are solved every day without pressure from the community. It sucks that Boulder isn't screaming for change and justice, but I don't think that's unusual for any cold case. Once it becomes clear that a case is going to go unsolved, I think most people just accept it.
    That's a lousy thing, eileen. This is America; we're supposed to be better than that.
    All posts made by me are MY exclusive property, and are NOT to be used or reproduced without my permission. DAVE SMASH THIEVES!

  10. #107
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    There are many cases that are solved years later. Most of the public didn't care anymore, but that didn't stop LE from re-examining the case. Stan Garnett has been taking a second look, and even making progress, in other cold cases in Boulder. Cases are solved every day without pressure from the community. It sucks that Boulder isn't screaming for change and justice, but I don't think that's unusual for any cold case. Once it becomes clear that a case is going to go unsolved, I think most people just accept it.
    I've accepted it. It will never be solved in any official sense.
    I'm just playing detective here. I have no idea who killed JonBenet. It's just an opinion.

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