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  1. #1
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    17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #15

    Please continue here.
    Remember the rules: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=159"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=159[/ame]
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    Please stick with the facts as reported by LE or MSM, and link them. Link them often if necessary.
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    We will no longer allow discussion of Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, or the Black Panther protest(s). There are way too many and timeouts to continue this discussion. We will allow MSM links to such protests, but no discussion.
    We need to stick to the facts of this case and that's our discussion here. Please, we ask that you do what you do best - SLEUTH THE CASE.
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    Thread #1
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    [ame=http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166793]Thread #5[/ame]
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    [ame=http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167219]Thread #9[/ame]
    [ame=http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167312]Thread #10[/ame]
    [ame=http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167357]Thread #11[/ame]
    [ame=http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167420]Thread #12[/ame]
    [ame=http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167490]Thread #13[/ame]
    [ame=http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7746243#post7746243]Thread #14[/ame]

    Clairfication on WS stance regarding the "victim friendly" issue.
    I had a discussion with the owners about how we were to deal with this. This is what I was advised:
    At this point in the investigation we don't KNOW exactly who ALL the victims are now. We KNOW that Trayvon is a victim, because he is dead. However, news breaks and new leaks come forth everyday and it is still unclear whether Zimmerman was a victim of any violence. Until more verifiable FACTS are available, WS has chosen to err on the side of treating both the confirmed (Trayvon) AND potential (Zimmerman) victim, both as victims.
    Like I said, that may change after we have more verifiable information
    Hope that helps clear this up.
    Please bump as needed.

    Just a reminder:
    WS does not permit links that request or suggest sending donations without the clear permission of the owners . This is to protect our members and for no other reason.
    __________________



  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velouria View Post
    You're correct - his conviction did occur in Florida. Apologies for the confusion.
    BBM

    I see what you did there, but he did not get convicted of anything. Florida does not expunge convictions, only charges. If he had a felony conviction in Florida, he would not have been able to get it expunged and therefore would not be able to purchase a firearm or have a concealed carry permit.

    He was not convicted. All of the evidence points to him not having been convicted. Where's the evidence that says he was?


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  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by lillygator View Post
    regarding the "probable cause" was the tea in his hand, pocket or bag? wasn't he cutting through yards? also, he was not a regular in the neighborhood and was out walking in the rain.
    I would love to see this list of "regulars" or "residents" that everyone talks about.

    No one has a right to follow someone just because they are new to a neighborhood. That's not really what Neighborhood Watch is for, imo.

    We know there were people in the neighborhood who belonged there but were unknown to George Zimmerman and his wife. Trayvon is a good example because he was indeed living there and had every right to be there.

    George didn't think Trayvon was a regular according to his own belief in who "belonged" and who didn't "belong." Clearly his isn't the only point of view in this case, it's just the only one on the 911 tapes. George had his own opinions about who was an in-group and who was an out-group in that community, and frankly I don't think it had anything to do with reality.

    I'm the proud mother of a new attorney!
    It's better to know some of the questions than all of the answers. ~ James Thurber
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing ~ Edmund Burke
    Why shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. ~ Mark Twain


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  6. #4
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    Looks like a gash to me. Since it was on the head, I wonder why George Zimmerman did not go to the hospital.




    HMS Hood
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    Pennant Number: 51
    Motto: Ventis Secundis ("With Favourable Winds")
    May 15, 1920-May 24, 1941


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  8. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by m00c0w View Post
    They did not. The picture I posted last night clearly shows he was around 3-5 feet away from the sidewalk.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
    Funny how things have a way of morphing from question to certainty overnight.

    Quote Originally Posted by m00c0w View Post
    What do you think the yellow object partially obstructed by the fence is?
    Attachment 21390

    Attachment 21391

    This was in the video from the link Bessie posted where the girlfriend makes the "back porch" comment.
    BBM

    Please provide a link establishing that whatever is under that yellow tarp is, in fact, the body of Trayvon or anyone else for that matter.

    The father of a dead child told us where his son was found and in what position:

    http://www.thegrio.com/specials/tray...-questions.php

    At the 1:33 mark:

    "His feet were like on the sidewalk"



    At the 1:39 mark:

    "And his body was laid out this way" (motioning with both hands towards the grass on his right)



    Furthermore, if you'll notice, by counting the roofline bump outs over the porches/balconies and check any map of the development you so choose, you'll be able to determine that Tracy Martin is standing almost dead center of the back of that first building, NOT almost out to the building's end, like whatever is under that tarp that the post to which I'm responding suggests is so "clearly" a body.


    But there is nothing covered up that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known. Accordingly, whatever you have said in the dark will be heard in the light, and what you have whispered in the inner rooms will be proclaimed upon the housetops. Luke 12, 2-3



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  10. #6
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    FBI Questions People on Scene in Martin Case

    SANFORD, Fla. -- FBI agents on Monday were questioning potential witnesses in the Trayvon Martin shooting, confirming to NBC News that the agency had begun a "parallel investigation" that focuses on whether the teen's civil rights were violated.

    Agents are seeking information on George Zimmerman's background and whether he was racially motivated when he pursued Martin after calling a 911 police dispatcher about his presence in the community, an FBI official told NBC.

    The agents were at the Retreat at Twin Lakes, where Martin was shot dead by Zimmerman, the gated community's neighborhood watch captain.

    I'm the proud mother of a new attorney!
    It's better to know some of the questions than all of the answers. ~ James Thurber
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing ~ Edmund Burke
    Why shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. ~ Mark Twain



  11. #7
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    I posted this in the last thread just before it got locked, bringing over here...

    ~Initial police reports never mentioned that Zimmerman had a bloody nose or a wet shirt that showed evidence of a struggle.~

    Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/2...#storylink=cpy

    Thoughts?



  12. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThoughtFox View Post
    I would love to see this list of "regulars" or "residents" that everyone talks about.

    No one has a right to follow someone just because they are new to a neighborhood. That's not really what Neighborhood Watch is for, imo.

    We know there were people in the neighborhood who belonged there but were unknown to George Zimmerman and his wife. Trayvon is a good example because he was indeed living there and had every right to be there.

    George didn't think Trayvon was a regular according to his own belief in who "belonged" and who didn't "belong." Clearly his isn't the only point of view in this case, it's just the only one on the 911 tapes. George had his own opinions about who was an in-group and who was an out-group in that community, and frankly I don't think it had anything to do with reality.
    you don't have a right to follow a suspicious looking person in your neighborhood? TM did not live there. I know the normal happenings of my neighborhood and unless you live there or are lost, ours is a out of the way place to be. I don't think for one second this is about race, he saw someone in a hoodie, slinking about in the rain - I think he would have confronted the person no matter the color.


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  14. #9
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    I fully support Trayvon Martin's Family! They have shown true class and dignity in the tragic "Murder" of their son!!! IMHO JMHO And i pray there is Justice for Trayvon..

    All posts are IMHO JMHO and all that unless a link is provided Boston Strong



  15. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Concerned Papa View Post
    Funny how things have a way of morphing from question to certainty overnight.

    BBM

    Please provide a link establishing that whatever is under that yellow tarp is, in fact, the body of Trayvon or anyone else for that matter.

    The father of a dead child told us where his son was found and in what position:

    http://www.thegrio.com/specials/tray...-questions.php

    At the 1:33 mark:

    "His feet were like on the sidewalk"



    At the 1:39 mark:

    "And his body was laid out this way" (motioning with both hands towards the grass on his right)



    Furthermore, if you'll notice, by counting the roofline bump outs over the porches/balconies and check any map of the development you so choose, you'll be able to determine that Tracy Martin is standing almost dead center of the back of that first building, NOT almost out to the building's end, like whatever is under that tarp that the post to which I'm responding suggests is so "clearly" a body.
    That is hearsay and is not admissible in court. He was not there that night, but the camera that recorded the video showing the yellow tarp covering a body-like object was. Did you know that yellow tarps are routinely used by LE to cover bodies? I may have over-exaggerated with respect to certainty, but it's more likely that what is in that video is the body in its actual position than someone who was not there that night knows where it was located. JMO


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  17. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velouria View Post
    BBM

    TM is dead. TM didn't have a history of violent behavior. GZ did. Why would I weigh in factors that don't correlate directly to an individual's propensity to commit a violent crime?
    I think anyone is capable of violence in the right circumstance, even individuals with no documented history of violence. If Trayvon thought GZ was going for a gun instead of his phone, he could have panicked and slugged him, especially if TM was thinking GZ had a gun all along. This is a boy who comes from an area in Florida where drive by shootings are a way of life. I can see him being scared. His girlfriend even says "run", which might be the norm for a kid from Miami Gardens, IMO.

    I wrote a post a few threads back citing recent crime statistics and an official study of the area where Trayvon lived - teens being shot and killed is not uncommon. Violent crimes are extraordinarily high, including a large gang presence. Kids learn how to survive in that environment.

    Gang Violence Growing In North Miami-Dade
    April 1, 2012

    "Police sources estimate that along a stretch of the county no more than seven or eight miles long and three or four miles wide as many as 30 people were shot and eight killed in March.

    Its the North Side, its Liberty City, its Miami Gardens, its Opa Locka, its Model Cities, Finnie noted. I mean this is one community, its different boundaries but its one community, one family, and we should have one goal to resolve this issue.

    Where is the public outcry for these kids?

    MJMO


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  19. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by w1df10wr View Post
    I posted this in the last thread just before it got locked, bringing over here...

    ~Initial police reports never mentioned that Zimmerman had a bloody nose or a wet shirt that showed evidence of a struggle.~

    Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/2...#storylink=cpy

    Thoughts?
    I thought we had copies of the police reports? were those secondary?


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  21. #13
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    The initial aggressor. The person that made the first aggressive move. Following someone is not aggressive. If Zimmerman grabbed Martin, Martin would be able to defend himself and Zimmerman would not be protected via the law. If Martin really just hauled off and punched Zimmerman and then pinned him to the ground, Martin would be the initial aggressor and would not be protected via the law.
    I can aggree if he did not call LE and he was just following someone from a safe distance to see what they were doing. But he knows he was not to follow....he should know not to follow because he had a gun. What if he lost control...the gun was not secured to a belt, it was holstered in his pants. The instrunction by LE, and the reason LE does not want citizens getting involved is because they get hurt. They put their lives and others in jeopardy when they take matters into their own hands. GZ did this. He essentially ignored what he knew to do, ignored what LE had told him, ignored his better judgment and followed TM without any justifiable cause. At that point he was stalking. TM had done nothing wrong. It was GZ's suspicion, no one else's, and the incident would have been resolved.

    GZ literally made a crime scene out of an innocent walk home of a minor. He did it without consideration of those around him and with total disregard to the community he lives in. He did it for self-serving reasons, to feed an ego. There was no one to protect. There was no one calling out for help because they were in distress. GZ made a life altering decision with total disregard for the person he was after. How can he justify following when he knows he was not suppose to. You can't say he has a right to follow because according to LE you don't because of the fact you are endangering others.

    GZ irresponsible behavior put the wheels in motion. He lost control of a nightmare he started the minute he stepped from his vehicle. jmo
    Last edited by beach; 04-02-2012 at 05:36 PM. Reason: repair broken quote



  22. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by LambChop View Post
    /quote/ The initial aggressor. The person that made the first aggressive move. Following someone is not aggressive. If Zimmerman grabbed Martin, Martin would be able to defend himself and Zimmerman would not be protected via the law. If Martin really just hauled off and punched Zimmerman and then pinned him to the ground, Martin would be the initial aggressor and would not be protected via the law. /quote/

    I can aggree if he did not call LE and he was just following someone from a safe distance to see what they were doing. But he knows he was not to follow....he should know not to follow because he had a gun. What if he lost control...the gun was not secured to a belt, it was holstered in his pants. The instrunction by LE, and the reason LE does not want citizens getting involved is because they get hurt. They put their lives and others in jeopardy when they take matters into their own hands. GZ did this. He essentially ignored what he knew to do, ignored what LE had told him, ignored his better judgment and followed TM without any justifiable cause. At that point he was stalking. TM had done nothing wrong. It was GZ's suspicion, no one else's, and the incident would have been resolved.

    GZ literally made a crime scene out of an innocent walk home of a minor. He did it without consideration of those around him and with total disregard to the community he lives in. He did it for self-serving reasons, to feed an ego. There was no one to protect. There was no one calling out for help because they were in distress. GZ made a life altering decision with total disregard for the person he was after. How can he justify following when he knows he was not suppose to. You can't say he has a right to follow because according to LE you don't because of the fact you are endangering others.

    GZ irresponsible behavior put the wheels in motion. He lost control of a nightmare he started the minute he stepped from his vehicle. jmo
    Do you think that Zimmerman should have paid for his bad decision of following someone from a distance to observe what they're doing an inform police with his life?


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  24. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThoughtFox View Post
    I would love to see this list of "regulars" or "residents" that everyone talks about.

    No one has a right to follow someone just because they are new to a neighborhood. That's not really what Neighborhood Watch is for, imo.

    We know there were people in the neighborhood who belonged there but were unknown to George Zimmerman and his wife. Trayvon is a good example because he was indeed living there and had every right to be there.

    George didn't think Trayvon was a regular according to his own belief in who "belonged" and who didn't "belong." Clearly his isn't the only point of view in this case, it's just the only one on the 911 tapes. George had his own opinions about who was an in-group and who was an out-group in that community, and frankly I don't think it had anything to do with reality.
    The homeowners chose a "gated" community, and they chose it for a reason. I'd find this much more odd in a regular neighborhood, but not a gated community.


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