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Thread: Long Easter Weekend Thread (Apr. 5, 6, 7, 8, & 9, 2012)

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittymama View Post
    What makes you think it's an old favourite???
    TLM on stand said...I love my mother...present tense. IMO she is still alive. Possibly she is in protective hiding???
    As always, JMO

    Evil is; as evil does.


    Prayers for Jun Lin, his family and those that love him.
    Justice is patient, relentless in its pursuit and is on the march for Justin Lin....

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  3. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by snoofer View Post
    TLM on stand said...I love my mother...present tense. IMO she is still alive. Possibly she is in protective hiding???
    Good catch!

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  5. #303
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    IMO the overwhelming majority of posters if not all are shocked, saddened, angered by the loss of Tori Stafford and want justice for her. As well, the overwhelming majority and possibly all have a well of empathy for what the loved ones of this beautiful child have and are going through. To <modsnip>. IMO
    Last edited by Salem; 04-06-2012 at 10:46 AM. Reason: please don't tell others how to post, that's the Mods' job.
    As always, JMO

    Evil is; as evil does.


    Prayers for Jun Lin, his family and those that love him.
    Justice is patient, relentless in its pursuit and is on the march for Justin Lin....

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  7. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by matou View Post
    Why leave a child to rot? Why leave a child to rot while her mother stands in front of a camera day after day to be scrutinized and crucified by the public while one is also an abuser of drugs? Why leave a child to rot while shifting blame to the rotting child's mother and boyfriend? Inexcusable. How can this behaviour be defended? He was there. He knew who the missing little girl was. She was the one under the hundred pound rocks that he lifted and dropped onto her body. Whether he raped her, murdered her or not. Tori was there and he was zipping around town, for 6 weeks as he continued to live his life as if nothing even happened. JMO MOO
    A great reminder as to why we are here 3 years later still trying to get justice for a little girl and her family. The agony for these parents having to sit through a trial listening to testimony at how their little girl was disposed of. Literally like trash. No one deserves that.

    3 long years for a little girl gone too soon.

    Justice for Holly Bobo🎀


  8. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittymama View Post
    Have you all heard of Occam's Razor? Basically it states that the explanation that makes the fewest assumptions is usually correct. No, it's not foolproof, but I also feel that many of these excuses being made for MTR are unreasonable. He drove the car. He drove past the school (repeatedly). He was with TLM. He lied to the police. He was there when a little girl was murdered.

    I don't really buy the drug debt theory, so therefore I don't buy that TLM kidnapped her for that purpose. And let's face it, when a man is involved in a kidnapping of a child that is not his own, it's usually for sexual purposes.

    So we can assume:

    -MTR was an innocent dupe who had no idea what was going on until it was too late
    -he had no idea why TLM really wanted to stop at the Home Depot (and why in Guelph? Isn't there one in Woodstock or at least London?)
    -he was unaware of the social protocol that you just don't take a strange child in your car--or ANY child, without their parent's explicit permission.
    -he was also unaware that driving said child far out of town went even further against the social protocol
    -he was waiting in the parking lot of the retirement home because...there was too much traffic? Nobody seems to want to touch that one
    -he drove out in the country just for the hell of it--again, with that strange child in his car
    -he pulled into a VERY secluded spot just so that TLM could talk to Tori without him present
    -he walked far enough away that not only could he not hear them talking, but he also couldn't hear or see TLM viciously murdering Tori with a hammer, using more force than was necessary to kill her
    -he was also far enough away that he couldn't hear Tori screaming
    -he didn't hear or see his trunk open for TLM to obtain the murder weapon and garbage bags
    -he was terrified of her even though he was quite muscular at the time, and almost certainly stronger than her
    -instead of backing away slowly from the murderous maniac, jumping in his car, locking the doors, and taking off without her, he helped her clean up this vicious murder of a child
    -not only did he help her clean it up, but he also then drove her back to her town, dropped her off far from her own house (would you take that chance of ticking off a maniac by leaving her to walk home in shoes that didn't fit if you were afraid of her? I wouldn't), and then tried to help her disguise her identity
    -he kept it all a secret and didn't help her family get closure even though he was simply an innocent dupe and didn't have anything more shameful than that to hide
    -her blood was found in his car because...she had a nosebleed?
    -he got rid of the seat because he suddenly decided, after participating in cleaning up a murder, that it would be a fine time to spruce up his car
    -he had TLM discard chunks of the seat because...you got me with that one. <modsnip>

    No, that's too many assumptions for me to make. I think this case is a lot simpler than that.

    We can also assume that he was abducted by aliens, his car seat was beamed up into their ship never to be seen again, and he was a victim of their mind control and that's why he did nothing, before or after. But is it reasonable? No.

    And that's why I think it's unreasonable to keep trying to explain this all away. Taken together, it looks clear to me.
    Wow....great post and explained so well. Thanks.
    Last edited by Salem; 04-06-2012 at 10:51 AM. Reason: snipped quoted post.
    Justice for Holly Bobo🎀

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  10. #306
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    In the LE photos of MTR car...

    The plastic is also "whitewashed" painted or whatever it was he was trying to achieve. Find that odd that it would not have been protected while it was being done as it does not look like an easy fix and you need to be able to see your speed, gas indicator etc. It seems to me to be a rush job. IMO So I would like to know from LE how many times was this coating done in the past...once, twice..other??

    The photo also shows that the trunk release is on floor to left of drivers seat. TLM didn't drive that we know of...and I know that when you are in a rental for example it takes a while to figure out where the features are ie lights, trunk, etc. I bring this up because the garbage bags and hammer were in the trunk....also in my car for example I have to have keys in ignition to open the trunk. Not sure of an older model car. Just a point of interest. Was it also dusk by that time, would think unless you know the car well, opening the trunk would be difficult, either the owner would do it..or perhaps another person could ask the owner how they open their trunk. IMO..or there is the option I guess that the non driving TLM DID know the car well or took a lucky guess.

    Does anyone know what the plastic wrapper in the car is LE photos in back...it is a picture of an adult holding a baby with what letters can see MGO ..other letters hidden. For some reason I think wipes...or yogurt...any guess what that is? JMO
    Last edited by snoofer; 04-06-2012 at 07:55 AM.
    As always, JMO

    Evil is; as evil does.


    Prayers for Jun Lin, his family and those that love him.
    Justice is patient, relentless in its pursuit and is on the march for Justin Lin....

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  12. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shasta View Post
    Thank you to all for keeping the Victoria Stafford threads updated and giving so much food for thought. I've followed this case from the beginning. I'm now living and working in Saudi Arabia and because of internet connectivity interruptions, couldn't possibly follow if it were not for the updates on WS by the excellent sleuthers.

    We may not all agree on what's being presented, but we are all united in our wish to do the right thing for Victoria Stafford. Too little, too late, for sure, and no relief EVER for the poor family. By closely scrutinizing this trial, by giving feedback to systems of justice in Ontario, we can ensure our politicians know the public will not tolerate this level of violence against children.

    I'm not sure I agree with the death penalty; living in Saudia Arabia close to "chop-chop square," in a city where I could get my head cut off for not wearing a hijab because it is a sexual temptation to men (and therefore a punishable crime) provides unique perspective on implications of the death penalty. But I hope Canada will have a death penalty debate, a dialogue to emphasize and underscore to our justice system that violence at this level, especially against children is intolerable and will be prosecuted fairly but with the full weight of the law.
    Quote Originally Posted by snoofer View Post
    IMO the overwhelming majority of posters if not all are shocked, saddened, angered by the loss of Tori Stafford and want justice for her. As well, the overwhelming majority and possibly all have a well of empathy for what the loved ones of this beautiful child have and are going through. To insinuate anything less of another poster is...not kosher. IMO

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  14. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittymama View Post
    Nobody seems to know where Carol is. That's odd.
    Who knows? Would probably make a good story for the supermarket tabloids, but no self-respecting reporter or their paper would stoop to follow this up. Let the poor woman have her privacy.

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  16. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~n/t~ View Post
    A great reminder as to why we are here 3 years later still trying to get justice for a little girl and her family. The agony for these parents having to sit through a trial listening to testimony at how their little girl was disposed of. Literally like trash. No one deserves that.

    3 long years for a little girl gone too soon.


    Absolutly spot on correct ! No one... NO ONE SHOULD HAVE TO GO THROUGH what little Victoria's family is going through. Not ever !!

    The problem is the trial is *HIS* right, not Victoria's or her family's right. He has more rights, right now, than Victoria. Bizzare as it may seem... he has the *right* to a fair trial and most importantly it has to appear that it was fair. That's why we need to hear all of the facts before finding guilt.

    At times it appears in the Canadian Justice system that the criminal has more rights than the victim. MOO

    May Tori's family find strength this Easter weekend
    Last edited by giantalkinghead; 04-06-2012 at 08:53 AM. Reason: better word choice

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  18. #310
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    She was in custody, and Mr. Rafferty, with his conventional good looks and appearance, came to visit. When he left, one of the staff asked who he was and when she replied, “My boyfriend,” the staff member said, “Way to go Terri.”
    To the 18-year-old drug addict with no prospects that she then was, and this is how she described herself, Mychol Rafferty must have looked like a fine catch.


    http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/...tafford-trial/

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  20. #311
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    But the link also raises the broader issue of why, if Mr. Rafferty was as his lawyer Dirk Derstine suggested in his cross-examination of Ms. McClintic merely a “horrified” bystander to the murder, he would have been taking steps to help the real killer change her appearance.
    Mr. Rafferty may have changed his own appearance too: The hair dye link was made through a receipt discovered during a search of his mother’s Woodstock house, and it shows he also bought a frosting kit at the same time. And an officer involved in booking Mr. Rafferty after May 19 arrest described his dark-brown hair as having frosted tips.


    http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/...tafford-trial/

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  22. #312
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    On Thursday, the trial heard how Rafferty, while in police custody, asked two undercover officers if they had any OxyContin, the highly addictive prescription pill.
    He said if he had 80 mg pills, he took four or five daily. But if he had 40 mg ones, he took dozen or so. And if he had Percocets, also prescription pills, he took 20 to 30 every day.


    20-30 percs a day? WOW....JMO


    http://www.londoncommunitynews.com/2...hael-rafferty/

    Rafferty kept saying if he could not get some pills, it was “going to be a hard few days.”

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  24. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by matou View Post
    On Thursday, the trial heard how Rafferty, while in police custody, asked two undercover officers if they had any OxyContin, the highly addictive prescription pill.
    He said if he had 80 mg pills, he took four or five daily. But if he had 40 mg ones, he took dozen or so. And if he had Percocets, also prescription pills, he took 20 to 30 every day.


    20-30 percs a day? WOW....JMO


    http://www.londoncommunitynews.com/2...hael-rafferty/

    Rafferty kept saying if he could not get some pills, it was “going to be a hard few days.”
    That is a very expensive habit, especially for someone who doesn't have a job.

    If TLM is telling the truth that MTR was pointing out houses where single mothers lived, I wonder if he started out casing the houses to break into and steal money and property from. I even wonder if he was already breaking into people's homes before they abducted Tory.

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  26. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by daisy.faithfull View Post
    That is a very expensive habit, especially for someone who doesn't have a job.

    If TLM is telling the truth that MTR was pointing out houses where single mothers lived, I wonder if he started out casing the houses to break into and steal money and property from. I even wonder if he was already breaking into people's homes before they abducted Tory.
    He was using so much and yet he had drugs to sell apparently (based on the note in his car). And he had cash. He must have had LOTS of cash to support this own drug habit and have extra to sell. JMO The break in scenario fits with his knowing the floor plans of single mothers. However, I think something else was going on IMO.

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  28. #315
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    I guess someone who was in his vehicle before and after Tori's abduction will need to testify and verify if he changed the interior to his car re. the paint whitewashing. JMO

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  30. #316
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    What if the supposed drug debt of JG's was to Rafferty? Might be a new motive not previously discussed?
    Although, I'm not convinced a drug debt had anything to do with the abduction and murder.
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~Aristotle~

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  32. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittymama View Post
    Have you all heard of Occam's Razor? Basically it states that the explanation that makes the fewest assumptions is usually correct. No, it's not foolproof, but I also feel that many of these excuses being made for MTR are unreasonable. He drove the car. He drove past the school (repeatedly). He was with TLM. He lied to the police. He was there when a little girl was murdered.

    I don't really buy the drug debt theory, so therefore I don't buy that TLM kidnapped her for that purpose. And let's face it, when a man is involved in a kidnapping of a child that is not his own, it's usually for sexual purposes.

    So we can assume:

    -MTR was an innocent dupe who had no idea what was going on until it was too late
    -he had no idea why TLM really wanted to stop at the Home Depot (and why in Guelph? Isn't there one in Woodstock or at least London?)
    -he was unaware of the social protocol that you just don't take a strange child in your car--or ANY child, without their parent's explicit permission.
    -he was also unaware that driving said child far out of town went even further against the social protocol
    -he was waiting in the parking lot of the retirement home because...there was too much traffic? Nobody seems to want to touch that one
    -he drove out in the country just for the hell of it--again, with that strange child in his car
    -he pulled into a VERY secluded spot just so that TLM could talk to Tori without him present
    -he walked far enough away that not only could he not hear them talking, but he also couldn't hear or see TLM viciously murdering Tori with a hammer, using more force than was necessary to kill her
    -he was also far enough away that he couldn't hear Tori screaming
    -he didn't hear or see his trunk open for TLM to obtain the murder weapon and garbage bags
    -he was terrified of her even though he was quite muscular at the time, and almost certainly stronger than her
    -instead of backing away slowly from the murderous maniac, jumping in his car, locking the doors, and taking off without her, he helped her clean up this vicious murder of a child
    -not only did he help her clean it up, but he also then drove her back to her town, dropped her off far from her own house (would you take that chance of ticking off a maniac by leaving her to walk home in shoes that didn't fit if you were afraid of her? I wouldn't), and then tried to help her disguise her identity
    -he kept it all a secret and didn't help her family get closure even though he was simply an innocent dupe and didn't have anything more shameful than that to hide
    -her blood was found in his car because...she had a nosebleed?
    -he got rid of the seat because he suddenly decided, after participating in cleaning up a murder, that it would be a fine time to spruce up his car
    -he had TLM discard chunks of the seat because...you got me with that one. The defenders seem to be ignoring that part.

    No, that's too many assumptions for me to make. I think this case is a lot simpler than that.

    We can also assume that he was abducted by aliens, his car seat was beamed up into their ship never to be seen again, and he was a victim of their mind control and that's why he did nothing, before or after. But is it reasonable? No.

    And that's why I think it's unreasonable to keep trying to explain this all away. Taken together, it looks clear to me.
    Don't stay too far away from the phone! I think the Crown might hire you for closing arguments!

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  34. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by puppyraiser View Post
    What if the supposed drug debt of JG's was to Rafferty? Might be a new motive not previously discussed?
    Although, I'm not convinced a drug debt had anything to do with the abduction and murder.
    Hmmm...I see very clearly that the drug debt thing can be easily spun towards the defendant, as you suggest. Very true, except I also don't think this has anything to do with any drug debt either. JMO

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  36. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by daisy.faithfull View Post
    The date on the hair color receipt is 4.11 evening. I can't see the date on the prescription receipts from TLM's, but TLM went to Genst on 4.12.

    The receipt for the hair color says it was purchased at Walmart. I can't see the store logo on the prescription receipts very clearly, but I've used Walmart's pharmacy and I don't think it's a match.

    One of the prescription bottles at MTR's had a red Shoppers label on it though, and the logo on the prescription receipts at TLM's is red.
    I made out Zellers in some of CM's prescription receipts. MOO.

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  38. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by matou View Post
    I guess someone who was in his vehicle before and after Tori's abduction will need to testify and verify if he changed the interior to his car re. the paint whitewashing. JMO
    I hope there's more evidence presented by the Crown re. "whitewashing" the car's interior. Someone suggested it was primer in preparation to painting or flocking the interior, but from those photos, it looks like is didn't stick too well and has been rubbing off. Pretty lousy primer, I'd say. However, whitewash is used to paint inside barns and disinfects. No doubt it neutralizes all kinds of organic residue including DNA. Living in a farming community like Woodstock, no doubt MR had heard about whitewash and got some at the local TSC. While I can see him painting the exterior of his car flat black, hotrodders used to do it, so why can't ricers, I've never heard of anyone whitewashing the interior to make it look cool. There has to be a reason.

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  40. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by swedie View Post
    I agree with my bolded sections above. I am perfectly find with the humour that is being posted here as it has been three VERY long years to get justice for an innocent little girl who was savagely beaten, tortured, raped and murdered by two very sick individuals. Tori's family has been dissected in the worst possible way and they were never able to grieve properly for their precious child because of disgusting accusations by others who partook to medley into Tori's families private lives. It has been a long three year for sure, to get where we are at today and getting justice for Tori. Some of us feel happy with the evidence being brought forward by the Crown, and we chose to share our happiness and humour. <modsnip>.

    <modsnip>. HTH
    I like humour too..especially clever, witty stuff!<modsnip>.
    That is just my opinion though. Live and let live.
    Last edited by Salem; 04-07-2012 at 12:04 AM.

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  42. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by matou View Post
    Why would he be hanging at Carol's? To make money dealing drugs to her entourage? JMO
    My thoughts would be to stay close to an oxy source.

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  44. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardy View Post
    Thanks for that informative post.

    I stand corrected. TLM didn't stand trial because of her plea.

    I believe that if TLM had a trial and whole lot more information would have come out.

  45. #324
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    If Michael Rafferty didn't kill her how can he be guilty of murder?

    I hope this works! Interesting legal opinion.

    http://jmortonmusings.blogspot.com/2...ferty.html?m=0

    I may need some advice on how to link articles here!

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  47. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by dilbert View Post
    I totally understand what you and others are saying, I actually agree with you, leaving Victoria where she was for so long is a horrible thing
    to do, but we don't yet know why MR chose not to tell anyone. We don't know what he told his lawyer and that his lawyer told him to not say anything, we are six weeks in to this trial and we don't really know anything about MR's state of mind during that time except for the little bit TLM testified to and quite frankly, her credibility is not what it would have been if she hadn't recanted her 2010 confession.

    My heart aches for what happened to Victoria and it aches for her family, I cannot imagine experiencing the loss of a child the way they have, however, because I don't state that with every post I make, it doesn't make it not true. From the second I heard of Victoria's disappearance on April 8, 2009, this case has weighed heavily on my mind, from the helicopter over my house, from the massive police and media presence in my city, from feeling like I can't take my eyes off my son for one second (and he's 13!!) etc., I have been affected by it, much like everyone else here has.

    I want to see justice for Victoria, no question about it, but when people are dismissing everything the defence says, mocking lawyers, and learning that police didn't examine evidence, well that has less to do with justice and more to do with one's own personal agenda/opinion, and when I see that happen, I speak up. I want the truth from both sides, justice doesn't come from hearing only one side (the Crown) it comes from both, and giving the accused the benefit of the doubt ensures that both sides are heard and understood.

    The trial is not over and IMO, the most important parts are yet to come. Justice is ensuring the right person is punished for the right reasons.

    MOO
    GREAT post!!

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