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  1. #1
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    17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #18

    Please continue here.
    Remember the rules: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=159"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=159[/ame]
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    Please stick with the facts as reported by LE or MSM, and link them. Link them often if necessary.
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    We will no longer allow discussion of Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, or the Black Panther protest(s). There are way too many and timeouts to continue this discussion. We will allow MSM links to such protests, but no discussion.
    We need to stick to the facts of this case and that's our discussion here. Please, we ask that you do what you do best - SLEUTH THE CASE.
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    [ame=http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166793]Thread #5[/ame]
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    [ame=http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167357]Thread #11[/ame]
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    [ame=http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7758089#post7758089]Thread #17[/ame]

    Clairfication on WS stance regarding the "victim friendly" issue.
    I had a discussion with the owners about how we were to deal with this. This is what I was advised:
    At this point in the investigation we don't KNOW exactly who ALL the victims are now. We KNOW that Trayvon is a victim, because he is dead. However, news breaks and new leaks come forth everyday and it is still unclear whether Zimmerman was a victim of any violence. Until more verifiable FACTS are available, WS has chosen to err on the side of treating both the confirmed (Trayvon) AND potential (Zimmerman) victim, both as victims.
    Like I said, that may change after we have more verifiable information
    Hope that helps clear this up.
    Please bump as needed.

    Just a reminder:
    WS does not permit links that request or suggest sending donations without the clear permission of the owners . This is to protect our members and for no other reason.
    __________________


  2. #2
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    Reposting

    Quote Originally Posted by Beyond Belief View Post
    I am not quite understanding self defense and a fight. Amongst the many things i have read the past couple days on that subject, I am still wrestling with something I read somewhere. Here goes:
    A fight is a crime, both participants are considered guilty of that crime.
    The one claiming self defense must have tried to end the fight in a peacefully manner before he took a more aggressive step in trying to protect himself/herself.
    I hope I said that right.
    I was going to add more, but it will just work its way out of context. So I'll stick with just wondering if that is true when your fighting and feel you have the right to claim self defense.
    Good question, made me look it up for the state of Fla.

    Q. When can I use my handgun to protect myself?

    A. Florida law justifies use of deadly force when you are:

    Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm;
    Trying to prevent a forcible felony, such as rape, robbery, burglary or kidnapping.
    Using or displaying a handgun in any other circumstances could result in your conviction for crimes such as improper exhibition of a firearm, manslaughter, or worse.

    Example of the kind of attack that will not justify defending yourself with deadly force: Two neighbors got into a fight, and one of them tried to hit the other by swinging a garden hose. The neighbor who was being attacked with the hose shot the other in the chest. The court upheld his conviction for aggravated battery with a firearm, because an attack with a garden hose is not the kind of violent assault that justifies responding with deadly force.

    Q. What if someone uses threatening language to me so that I am afraid for my life or safety?

    A. Verbal threats are not enough to justify the use of deadly force. There must be an overt act by the person which indicates that he immediately intends to carry out the threat. The person threatened must reasonably believe that he will be killed or suffer serious bodily harm if he does not immediately take the life of his adversary.

    http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/wea...f_defense.html

  3. #3
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    Still not understanding how going to the store after dinner says anything about his intentions or character. I hope this kind of thinking is not present in the grand jury proceedings.
    Justice for GEORGE!

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horace Finklestein View Post
    Still not understanding how going to the store after dinner says anything about his intentions or character. I hope this kind of thinking is not present in the grand jury proceedings.
    JMO--I think the whole grocery story is a red herring. The Z's et all don't want to state GZ was out on one of his regular armed volunteer security guard rounds. (You can't be neighborhood watch while packing a 9mm)

    Going to buy groceries "sounds" innocent.....
    As always, YMMV

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horace Finklestein View Post
    Still not understanding how going to the store after dinner says anything about his intentions or character. I hope this kind of thinking is not present in the grand jury proceedings.
    GZ claims he was on his way to Target and spotted TM on his way out by the clubhouse. However, GZ's father claims TM was cutting through the houses and that is why GZ was suspicious. GZ lives at the other end of the street and would not have been able to see TM cutting through if it happened the way GZ claims. But, FT's house is further up the road where FT could have seen TM using the cut through. So, did he call GZ and GZ hot-footed it out to his car to go check TM out????? That is why there is a question about Target, IMO. Two different versions of how GZ first noticed TM as being suspicious. jmo

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peliman View Post
    Reposting



    Good question, made me look it up for the state of Fla.

    Q. When can I use my handgun to protect myself?

    A. Florida law justifies use of deadly force when you are:

    Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm;
    Trying to prevent a forcible felony, such as rape, robbery, burglary or kidnapping.
    Using or displaying a handgun in any other circumstances could result in your conviction for crimes such as improper exhibition of a firearm, manslaughter, or worse.

    Example of the kind of attack that will not justify defending yourself with deadly force: Two neighbors got into a fight, and one of them tried to hit the other by swinging a garden hose. The neighbor who was being attacked with the hose shot the other in the chest. The court upheld his conviction for aggravated battery with a firearm, because an attack with a garden hose is not the kind of violent assault that justifies responding with deadly force.
    Q. What if someone uses threatening language to me so that I am afraid for my life or safety?

    A. Verbal threats are not enough to justify the use of deadly force. There must be an overt act by the person which indicates that he immediately intends to carry out the threat. The person threatened must reasonably believe that he will be killed or suffer serious bodily harm if he does not immediately take the life of his adversary.

    http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/wea...f_defense.html
    BBM

    This is what I was trying to figure out...you can meet force with force..

    but is fist to guns meeting force with force? As I stated earlier, this was unbalanced from the start with GZ having a loaded gun to TM's fists...if he did beat GZ..but I keep going back to the funeral director who saw no trace of TM being in a fistfight...I wonder what the autopsy will show...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by LiveLaughLuv View Post
    BBM

    This is what I was trying to figure out...you can meet force with force..

    but is fist to guns meeting force with force? As I stated earlier, this was unbalanced from the start with GZ having a loaded gun to TM's fists...if he did beat GZ..but I keep going back to the funeral director who saw no trace of TM being in a fistfight...I wonder what the autopsy will show...
    I think the defense that will be presented is this.

    Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm;

    JMO of course.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gin View Post
    JMO--I think the whole grocery story is a red herring. The Z's et all don't want to state GZ was out on one of his regular armed volunteer security guard rounds. (You can't be neighborhood watch while packing a 9mm)

    Going to buy groceries "sounds" innocent.....
    As always, YMMV
    It is a red herring. The fact is that GZ shot and killed TM. GZ tried to hold him for police and when TM defended himself, GZ pulled the trigger, IMO.

  9. #9
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    I have thought that GZ saw TM on his way of the community on his way to target. The pool house which is just inside the main entrance on the left. And that is why he was in a vehicle.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peliman View Post
    I think the defense that will be presented is this.

    Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm;

    JMO of course.


    I think Mr Martin was acting in selfdefense, that negates Mr Zimmerman's excuse of selfdefense. Mr Zimmerman accosted Mr Martin, that cannot be selfdefense.
    on twitter, my blog, and in life I am a "Floormodel", slightly used by age but still in perfectly good condition and worth having around.


  11. #11
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    I also do not think GZ was ever appointed as a courtesy officer by the HOA. At the very least owners and residents would have been aware of who he was and what his function was in order for them to cooperate. The only information circulated was by LE that if residents had questions about the NWP they could contact GZ. That was not giving GZ the authority for anything other than administrative contacts. GZ, however, obviously took it to the max using that as an excuse to promote himself to a position of authority.

    If RZ knew his son had this arrangement he would have certainly mentioned it by now. It appears GZ has had this obsession for a long time. Obviously if GZ felt so unsafe in this community, and he was only leasing his home, he should have moved out to a safer community......unless, he enjoyed his role as self-appointed watchman. jmo

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow View Post
    I think Mr Martin was acting in selfdefense, that negates Mr Zimmerman's excuse of selfdefense. Mr Zimmerman accosted Mr Martin, that cannot be selfdefense.
    Define accosted for me please.

  13. #13
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    I fear for the citizens of Sanford if he is not at least taken into protective custody if not charged, reading some of the racist comments on Orlando papers frightens me, they are asking residents to "lock and load". Whatever happens this is not going to be good. We need to stress and encourage calm and order. He needs to be charged and this needs to be determined in a court of law, not on the streets or here. JMO

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by LambChop View Post
    I also do not think GZ was ever appointed as a courtesy officer by the HOA. At the very least owners and residents would have been aware of who he was and what his function was in order for them to cooperate. The only information circulated was by LE that if residents had questions about the NWP they could contact GZ. That was not giving GZ the authority for anything other than administrative contacts. GZ, however, obviously took it to the max using that as an excuse to promote himself to a position of authority.

    If RZ knew his son had this arrangement he would have certainly mentioned it by now. It appears GZ has had this obsession for a long time. Obviously if GZ felt so unsafe in this community, and he was only leasing his home, he should have moved out to a safer community......unless, he enjoyed his role as self-appointed watchman. jmo

    I for one do not think that GZ's atty will allow GZ to say he was "on duty"
    I am thinking that GZ did this on his own time.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elley Mae View Post
    I have thought that GZ saw TM on his way of the community on his way to target. The pool house which is just inside the main entrance on the left. And that is why he was in a vehicle.
    Correct. That is when GZ called dispatch and said there was a suspicious person at the clubhouse which is right inside the front gate. However, RZ claims his son spotted TM cutting through the houses and from Oregon Avenue the only cut through would be right at the curve of the road on Retreat View Circle. If you are looking down at the map it would be to your far left. The clubhouse is in the center portion of Retreat View Circle as you enter the gate. If GZ were off to the store and reached the clubhouse in time to see TM how would be know TM cut through the houses???? It's about the same distance to the cut through on Twin Tree which appears to be a two plus minute walk. jmo

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