NY - Karyn Kay, 63, beaten to death, NYC, 10 April 2012 *Insanity*

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/ma_slay_amnesia_h3KMqalHIHruU1SCmUq4sN

I guess this happened right around the corner from me. She was a school teacher, and the other night, there was a group of kids holding a candlelight vigil in front of the building. Now there's a little shrine there, with a note to "Ms. Kay."

It's kind of a confusing story. If he really did kill her involuntarily during a seizure, I'm not sure why he's in jail.

Other articles said they had a volatile relationship.

Here are the previous articles:
April 10
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/...her_brutally_beaten_to_6uUzGfy6EYhKF1OZkiKqDN
April 11
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/...ilepsy_killing_sources_Xt3lf0tPto5roBUsmHqFEI
April 11
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/son_is_held_in_ma_slay_horror_BedxbMKWt1jdXMWKi1TmBP
April 12
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/son_killer_meds_pAw7YGzyoIlzaxgrjJr9kM

This is a horrific story, angry and sad. Daily Mail's run a couple pieces on it as well.

I don't believe him.

A: With a seizure movements are totally unfocused, if he was hitting her so hard that he was injuring her, she wouldn't have been able to hold on to him. And he couldn't have gone after her.

B: Post seizure epileptics get sleepy, not violent.

C: He did an interview. I'm sure his attorney told him not to, but he did. Kid this age should have been too scared to go against attorney's advice.

D: Notice how he got in there that he was going to college, he was studying theology, he wanted to be a Rabbi? Lot's of feel sorry for me stuff, but I don't believe.

Sorry for him but I am not quite sure I believe him. I have suffered from passing out/seizures in the past, so I have had experiences with them. While it is true that during an episode that a person may do things that they are unaware of, the bottom line is that he KILLED someone. If it happened as he said, then he is a danger to society because it could happen again and he has no control.

Many people with seizures are banned from driving because they are a danger to themselves and other innocent people. If he is in danger of killing people during an episode then he needs to be in a controlled and supervised environment.

If this truly happened as he claims then I would think that he would welcome a supervised controlled environment to ensure that it never happens again. When I was experiencing those episode, I had to adjust my life to make sure that I had people around and that my episodes did not cause problems for others. I stopped driving, bathed with the door open, didn't go on walks by myself, etc. I even had to give up teaching after passing out in a class of young children.

But his history of violence with his mother, along with the call, tells me that this most likely was a conscious act that he is trying to blame on a seizure. Maybe he should go live with George and Cindy Anthony since Cindy believes that poor Casey was in a seizure state when Kaylee died.

Frankly I don't appreciate his blaming this on a seizure because that just puts MORE stigma on the people who have seizures and have to hide them because of all of the misinformation about them. I think that people with seizures have enough to deal with without this guy making people fear that people with seizures may kill innocent people around them.

So yeah, I call BS on his blaming this murder on a seizure.

Wow....very disturbing case. I don't know what to think. I did a quick search on Epileptic Symptoms and this stood out. I'm also wondering if he was taking any medication. Perhaps medication and whatever else (alcohol or other drug) may have made his symptoms worse (?)

I'll need to read more about the case but in the meantime, here is some food for thought......

Partial (focal) seizures (begin in a single area of the brain):

Simple partial seizure – In this type of seizure, the person remains awake and aware. Symptoms vary depending on the brain area involved and can include jerking movements in one part of the body; an experience of abnormal smells, sounds or changes in vision; nausea; or emotional symptoms, such as unexplained fear or rage.


Complex partial seizure – In this type of seizure, the person may seem to be aware, but is briefly unresponsive. There may be a blank stare, chewing or lip smacking, repetitive movements of the hand, or unusual behaviors. After the seizure, the person has no memory of the episode.

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http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/9339/9902.html

Could he have done it in a post-ictal fugue state? That would seem possible to me.
Or maybe he has temporal lobe epilepsy?

What a terrible story.
when my epileptic son is in his postictal phase- look out. He is angry, combative, and unreasonable. he doesn't get sleepy he gets kind of super-human, talks like a drunk and is mad mad mad at everyone. He had a seizure at the wheel one year and it took 4 cops, 4 firefighter and 2 paramedics to restrain him and remove him from the car accident scene. 10 grown men to contain a 20 something. He thought they were trying to hurt him and was fending them off as if he was in fear for his life. They finally got him strapped down and off to the hospital. So lucky they didn't shoot or taze him. The only reason they didn't, imo, is because there was someone at the crash scene that knew he was epileptic. Otherwise they would have probably thought he was crazy on drugs or something. He also has a spike in blood sugar to over 300 during his tonic clonics and that can also make you very hostile. His lasts for about an hour. What he can remember makes him feel so bad! He had to go find those paramedics and apologize.

he is also unusually cranky before a seizure and that used to be a tip off for me.

Imo,if someone has mental problems and if they have a postictal phase like my son- i can see this happening. My son would not beat me-but he is kind of scarey because he is not himself. He is defintiely physically aggressive. Fortunately he is pretty well balanced otherwise and is a love.

Of course I feel horrible for the mom bless her heart I understand about caring for an epileptic- but I also feel bad for this seemingly very troubled young man that now has to live with this. I hope he gets intense help in a psychiatric setting and not incarcerated.

JBean said:

What a terrible story.
when my epileptic son is in his postictal phase- look out. He is angry, combative, and unreasonable. he doesn't get sleepy he gets kind of super-human, talks like a drunk and is mad mad mad at everyone. He had a seizure at the wheel one year and it took 4 cops, 4 firefighter and 2 paramedics to restrain him and remove him from the car accident scene. 10 grown men to contain a 20 something. He thought they were trying to hurt him and was fending them off as if he was in fear for his life. They finally got him strapped down and off to the hospital. So lucky they didn't shoot or taze him. The only reason they didn't, imo, is because there was someone at the crash scene that knew he was epileptic. Otherwise they would have probably thought he was crazy on drugs or something. He also has a spike in blood sugar to over 300 during his tonic clonics and that can also make you very hostile. His lasts for about an hour. What he can remember makes him feel so bad! He had to go find those paramedics and than them and apologize.

he is also unusually cranky before a seizure and that used to be a tip off for me.

Imo,if someone has mental problems and if they have a postictal phase like my son- i can see this happening. My son would not beat me-but he is kind of scarey because he is not himself. He is defintiely physically aggressive. Fortunately he is pretty well balanced otherwise and is a love.

Of course I feel horrible for the mom bless her heart I understand about caring for an epileptic- but I also feel bad for this seemingly very troubled young man that now has to live with this. I hope he gets intense help in a psychiatric setting and not incarcerated.

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I have relatives that have epilepsy and seizures and can't drive, but I have never heard of the type/degree of seizure your son has. That is frightening. He was very fortunate to have someone there at his car accident, but tbh I could see the police thinking "what bs is this person giving us to excuse his friend" with all the lies they get from people.
I also agree that I would think this man would want to be under comprehensive supervision if he knew that he was capable of killing anyone during a seizure.
Moo

Wow.. my son was diagnosed with epilepsy as achild and he grew out of it but I've NEVER heard some of the reactions to a seizure as you all have described... I've seen 2 adults in an epileptic seizure and at first trhey are aggressive but then they are down for the count.
I'm not a doctor so I dont know what happened with this guy but IMO the plethora of meds did more harm than good. When are we going to realize the pharmaceutical companies (ie big corporations) are profiting off our hopes beyond hopes to live a normal life and be "normal" and killing us in the process.. (MOO)
So sad for this boy.. he looks so devastated in his arraignment pic..

Yoda said:

I have relatives that have epilepsy and seizures and can't drive, but I have never heard of the type/degree of seizure your son has. That is frightening. He was very fortunate to have someone there at his car accident, but tbh I could see the police thinking "what bs is this person giving us to excuse his friend" with all the lies they get from people.
I also agree that I would think this man would want to be under comprehensive supervision if he knew that he was capable of killing anyone during a seizure.
Moo

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He was lucky-it happened to be someone driving down the road that saw my son pull out of a gas station and noticed his driving was erratic. When my son crashed the other boy blocked his car with his own, called 911 and got in the car to help my son. TBH- I am shocked that the cops in my area didn't shoot him. This has always been one of my biggest fears for him.
he had this seizure at the wheel the same day that Jett TRavolta died-so the reality that he was REALLY lucky hit home for us.

deelytful1 said:

Wow.. my son was diagnosed with epilepsy as achild and he grew out of it but I've NEVER heard some of the reactions to a seizure as you all have described... I've seen 2 adults in an epileptic seizure and at first trhey are aggressive but then they are down for the count.
I'm not a doctor so I dont know what happened with this guy but IMO the plethora of meds did more harm than good. When are we going to realize the pharmaceutical companies (ie big corporations) are profiting off our hopes beyond hopes to live a normal life and be "normal" and killing us in the process.. (MOO)
So sad for this boy.. he looks so devastated in his arraignment pic..

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Even when my son was a toddler he did not get sleepy after his seizures- he just turned into..well he turned into a brat that I couldn't turn off.
I 100% agree with you on the medication issue and sometimes drugs are not the answer. Sometimes they are- but sometimes they defintiely are not.

My son is currently unmedicated and has been seizure free for at least 3 years now. Even as a baby I would not medicate because at that time the anti-convulsants were really nasty. In his late teens he was on lamictal for a time-but now we are back to no meds and he is now well tuned into his body and makes sure that any and all triggers are avoided. He is pushing 25 now and can help himself better than any medication-but that is defintiely not the case for all epileptics so we feel really lucky. he lives a totally normal life and is not held back in any way. he drives, works,lives and loves.

The boy in the story really has my sympathy if what he says is true. A nightmare all the way around.

So tragic, My thoughts are with him and his family.

I do not believe him. What else did his mom say on the phone? Did she say her son was having a seizure? Why would she even call 911 for a seizure if the normal procedure is just to wait it out?

His attorney says he was taking Keppra, which is indicated for partial onset seizures.
This article indicates there have been previous fights between the two.
http://www.dnainfo.com/20120411/mid...aryn-kays-murder-blamed-on-sons-epilepsy-meds

Info on different types of seizures
http://www.primarypsychiatry.com/aspx/articledetail.aspx?articleid=1403

Info about Keppra-see warnings
http://www.keppraxr.com/

Shelby2 said:

His attorney says he was taking Keppra, which is indicated for partial onset seizures.
This article indicates there have been previous fights between the two.
http://www.dnainfo.com/20120411/mid...aryn-kays-murder-blamed-on-sons-epilepsy-meds

Info on different types of seizures
http://www.primarypsychiatry.com/aspx/articledetail.aspx?articleid=1403

Info about Keppra-see warnings
http://www.keppraxr.com/

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I have epilepsy. Grand-mal seizures, pass out, post-ictal, the whole bit. I don't get violent, but I wouldn't rule it out. It always amazes and frightens me what my body can do without my control. It's also terrifing not to remember anything that happens directly after an episode. I have been told that, when asked, I don't even know my own name.

I took Keppra, and I hated it. Horrible for me. Made me feel woozy and not myself and worst of all, it didn't do anything for the seizures. They just kept increasing the dose until I couldn't walk. The walls seemed like they were literally caving in on me all the time. I am on a better med now and (fingers crossed!) seizure-free for three years.

I feel horrible for him and his family if the story is true. I'm not sure there is enough evidence to decide one way or another yet. I hope they investigate this really well and if it does go to trial, it is fair. That's the best I can hope for in this sad story.

maedlamsmom said:

I have epilepsy. Grand-mal seizures, pass out, post-ictal, the whole bit. I don't get violent, but I wouldn't rule it out. It always amazes and frightens me what my body can do without my control. It's also terrifing not to remember anything that happens directly after an episode. I have been told that, when asked, I don't even know my own name.

I took Keppra, and I hated it. Horrible for me. Made me feel woozy and not myself and worst of all, it didn't do anything for the seizures. They just kept increasing the dose until I couldn't walk. The walls seemed like they were literally caving in on me all the time. I am on a better med now and (fingers crossed!) seizure-free for three years.

I feel horrible for him and his family if the story is true. I'm not sure there is enough evidence to decide one way or another yet. I hope they investigate this really well and if it does go to trial, it is fair. That's the best I can hope for in this sad story.

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Thank you for sharing that. I am glad you have found a medication that is working so well.

....I dont know...I believe him.

JBean said:

What a terrible story.
when my epileptic son is in his postictal phase- look out. He is angry, combative, and unreasonable. he doesn't get sleepy he gets kind of super-human, talks like a drunk and is mad mad mad at everyone. He had a seizure at the wheel one year and it took 4 cops, 4 firefighter and 2 paramedics to restrain him and remove him from the car accident scene. 10 grown men to contain a 20 something. He thought they were trying to hurt him and was fending them off as if he was in fear for his life. They finally got him strapped down and off to the hospital. So lucky they didn't shoot or taze him. The only reason they didn't, imo, is because there was someone at the crash scene that knew he was epileptic. Otherwise they would have probably thought he was crazy on drugs or something. He also has a spike in blood sugar to over 300 during his tonic clonics and that can also make you very hostile. His lasts for about an hour. What he can remember makes him feel so bad! He had to go find those paramedics and apologize.

he is also unusually cranky before a seizure and that used to be a tip off for me.

Imo,if someone has mental problems and if they have a postictal phase like my son- i can see this happening. My son would not beat me-but he is kind of scarey because he is not himself. He is defintiely physically aggressive. Fortunately he is pretty well balanced otherwise and is a love.

Of course I feel horrible for the mom bless her heart I understand about caring for an epileptic- but I also feel bad for this seemingly very troubled young man that now has to live with this. I hope he gets intense help in a psychiatric setting and not incarcerated.

Click to expand...

Have you considered getting him one of those dogs that are trained to work with persons with epilepsy? Then the dog could be trained to keep him down until he recovers a bit.

the seeker said:

....I dont know...I believe him.

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I do too.

I hope he gets a fair shake.


I don't have any experience with epilepsy, but my eldest had night terrors (at nap times) when he was a toddler and I can attest to the high functioning with no memory thing. It was a scary time with a little demon I didn't know! As it would begin to wind down, I'd leave him to go "back to sleep" and inevitably, a little while later, he'd sheepishly come out of the bedroom like he was just getting up from a long nap. No apologies, no remorse, no hint of the argument or power struggle that had gone on (ie. Can I stand in the window sill now, mom?)... just my sleepy little lovely boy. TG that didn't carry on past 2 or 3 years old. phew

Why would he say it was a mistake?

1) They got into an argument and things got out of hand and he didn't mean to kill her?

2) He had an epileptic seizure and he is remorseful so her murder was a mistake?

Also, why didn't he hang up the phone?

1) He didn't know mom made the call?

2) He didn't care at that point - adrenaline rush?

3) He doesn't remember anything?


Tragic case but it will be interesting to see what happens. Regardless of whether or not he goes to prison, this kid needs help. If it was caused by seizures, he is a danger to himself and others. If it wasn't, he is a murderer.