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Thread: 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #26

  1. #601
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    Quote Originally Posted by m00c0w View Post
    In that version of events, he was, iirc. I don't think it's necessarily fair to pick and choose which parts of the story are credible and which aren't. Either the father's story is entirely credible, or parts of it aren't (which would damage the credibility of the entire story).
    There is something called "mis-truths" and "half-truths" that I have had the unfortunate opportunity to learn about from another case and that is where there is some truth mixed in with all the lies... so you do have to look into what could be true and what could not be true. Like I believe that "reaching for the phone" was actually "reaching for the gun." There has to be a reason behind them even mentioning George "reaching" for anything. Why would that even be brought up? Get what I'm saying?
    Justice for Trayvon


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    Quote Originally Posted by LolaMoon08 View Post
    There is something called "mis-truths" and "half-truths" that I have had the unfortunate opportunity to learn about from another case and that is where there is some truth mixed in with all the lies... so you do have to look into what could be true and what could not be true. Like I believe that "reaching for the phone" was actually "reaching for the gun." There has to be a reason behind them even mentioning George "reaching" for anything. Why would that even be brought up? Get what I'm saying?
    I understand what you're saying. I'm just saying that in the course of events described, Zimmerman was on his way back to his vehicle when Martin approached him and Zimmerman then reached for his phone. If you're going to claim that he wasn't on his way back to his vehicle, why are any subsequent claims any more reliable? They're all based around the one falsifiable assertion.

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  4. #603
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    Quote Originally Posted by LolaMoon08 View Post
    There is something called "mis-truths" and "half-truths" that I have had the unfortunate opportunity to learn about from another case and that is where there is some truth mixed in with all the lies... so you do have to look into what could be true and what could not be true. Like I believe that "reaching for the phone" was actually "reaching for the gun." There has to be a reason behind them even mentioning George "reaching" for anything. Why would that even be brought up? Get what I'm saying?
    And my guess is he carried that phone right on his belt.

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  6. #604
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    Quote Originally Posted by LolaMoon08 View Post
    BBM I don't think he was ever on his way back to his vehicle?

    MOO
    Busy positioning self for ambush!

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  8. #605
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    Quote Originally Posted by cityslick View Post
    A jury (if it gets that far) will have to ultimately decide if GZ 'attacked' TM or if they believe GZ's story (TM attacked him).
    And I believe they will believe that GZ was the aggressor. I doubt Angela Cory would have filed 2nd degree murder charges if she wasn't sure she could convince a jury of that. The evidence she has which we aren't privy too probably will seal his fate.


  9. #606
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Fessel View Post
    It is just the story George told them.
    Reportedly. So sure, it's fine to consider it as a general detail in GZ's SYG claim.

    But we've started debating the semantics of individual words when we have no idea whether the relatives are even repeating George's story verbatim.

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  11. #607
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    Quote Originally Posted by CathyinTexas View Post
    And I believe they will believe that GZ was the aggressor. I doubt Angela Cory would have filed 2nd degree murder charges if she wasn't sure she could convince a jury of that. The evidence she has which we aren't privy too probably will seal his fate.
    That would imply that every prosecutor that files charges would get a guilty verdict because the evidence is so compelling. I can think of a football player and a female from Florida that can attest to this not being true. You just have to have probable cause to file charges. That's nowhere near "beyond a reasonable doubt".

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  13. #608
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    Quote Originally Posted by m00c0w View Post
    How many people do you know of that were never arrested when clearly guilty because of the Stand Your Ground law in place? It doesn't prohibit investigations.
    You stated:
    They could also be arrested and held in jail for months while they and their family suffers for the actions of a pure criminal. They could lose their job, their admission to college, their children if it's a single parent...
    That is why I want to know what cases you know of that fit YOUR criteria? I have not heard of cases like that but those claims have been made to support the SYG laws.

    I am NOT asking about SYG law cases, I am asking for specific examples of self defense cases PRE-DATING SYG where the people defending themselves or their families were "arrested and held in jail for months" or lost "their job, their admission to college, their children if it's a single parent".

    You are the one who stated that - please name specific cases. Thank you.

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  15. #609
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    Quote Originally Posted by LambChop View Post
    But I doubt if you would track this person down to try and see if you could catch him in the act of doing something he was not suppose to be doing. And that would be because you are smart enough to know that there are some things you leave up to the professionals to do. Someone who is trained in handling these types of matters. I know if someone creeped me out the last thing I would want to do is check him out to see what he was up to. I'd call 911 and wait for the car. Had GZ done this, TM would have been safely home and GZ would still be complaining...."they always get away." Makes you think about those that got away may have done nothing wrong and may have been staying with friends within the community. jmo
    Yes. It's absolutely my instinct to put as much distance between myself and the person who is setting off my hinky meter. But the point that I'm trying to make is that just because I am suspicious of men doesn't make me a man-hater. For this reason, I can't make the leap that because GZ was suspicious of TM, he was a racist and IMO that is the foundation of the "profiling" side of the debate.

    JMO, OMO, and
    all my comments are just my opinion. jmho. moo. etc. etc.

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  17. #610
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Fessel View Post
    I understand what you are saying. It is like when it was reported George was crying for days after he shot Martin and George was crying for days in jail and George was getting his head beat in and Martin had his hand over his mouth.............it was all just casual talk, nothing to it.
    Now be fair, Doc! In the first place, I basically agree with you on this case so the sarcasm isn't necessary. (It also isn't unkind. No big deal. )

    You and I both know there's a big difference between casually identifying your field of study in college and carelessly relating the story of killing another human being.

    But we are just hearing second-hand accounts. As I said, those are fine as general indications of what George is claiming, but to treat them as sacred scriptures and analyze every word is misleading when we don't even know if Jr. or Taefe got the story straight, or if they are embellishing (my personal suspicion) or what.

    We all do it, especially on slow news days. But every once in awhile, we need to step back and remember we haven't yet seen any of George's first-hand accounts.

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  19. #611
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    Quote Originally Posted by i.b.nora View Post
    I wonder how the lawns behind the townhomes gets cared for, or how it is maintained. In other words, are there sprinkler heads in the lawn?
    The best pictures I know of that could show sprinkler heads are at this site: http://marinadedave.com/journal/2012...on-martin.html

    And I don't see any though they could be closer to the houses so they would spray away from the porches.

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  21. #612
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Fessel View Post
    And my guess is he carried that phone right on his belt.
    So do I. The difference being that my bluetooth is in my ear so that I can speak while walking, driving etc.

    If I wish to call out though I must reach for my cell.

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  23. #613
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    Quote Originally Posted by m00c0w View Post
    Seminole State also offers an associate's program in criminal justice... It doesn't seem that an associate's is necessary to take any of the classes or pursue that as a course of study.
    Thanks. I did see your correction, but I had already responded to the OP.

    I didn't go back to change my post because I can't quite believe this is actually a serious issue. I am very, very distrustful of GZ's reported statement about his encounter with TM, but that doesn't mean that everything GZ ever said in his life was a lie.

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  25. #614
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    Quote Originally Posted by IzzyBlanche View Post
    OK. To use your examples.

    Both your friend's husband and Natasha R. felt well enough after their head injuries to refuse treatment, to tragic effect. I'm sorry for your friend's loss. But obviously both of them had critical injuries and didn't know it.

    Yet GZ was somehow able to just know that one more blow would put him in diapers?
    From personal experience, I can assure you that when one's head is being pounded into a hard surface, one fears the worst. One of the most sickening sounds you'll ever hear is the sound of your own head hitting a hard surface (a tile floor in my case). The fear that the next blow may be the last is very real.

    I understand the people don't believe GZ's story. But please don't mock or diminish the very real fright the victim of a brutal beating experiences.

    JMO, OMO, and
    all my comments are just my opinion. jmho. moo. etc. etc.

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  27. #615
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    Quote Originally Posted by m00c0w View Post
    I understand what you're saying. I'm just saying that in the course of events described, Zimmerman was on his way back to his vehicle when Martin approached him and Zimmerman then reached for his phone. If you're going to claim that he wasn't on his way back to his vehicle, why are any subsequent claims any more reliable? They're all based around the one falsifiable assertion.
    Very true. None of it, IMO, is reliable. But what else can we talk about without all the evidence in front of us?

    I don't even care about the witness statements as history has proven that eye-witness testimony can be some of the most unreliable evidence.

    These people are George's family and friends and they are, for some reason, speaking out on what George claims happened? Even Chief Bill Lee put his own version of what George said out there?

    So that's what we have to go on... unreliable... yes... worth the discussion until we get the evidence? Yes!
    Justice for Trayvon

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  29. #616
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrienne37 View Post
    If he were telling the truth both the stories that he told LE and his family should be the same. Why would he need to tell LE one thing and his family something different?



    ~jmo~
    There's no telling at this point if he told a different story to LE than he did to his family. And I'm not sure if his family may have gotten some things wrong or tried to embellish the story or both.

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  31. #617
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    Quote Originally Posted by m00c0w View Post
    I understand what you're saying. I'm just saying that in the course of events described, Zimmerman was on his way back to his vehicle when Martin approached him and Zimmerman then reached for his phone. If you're going to claim that he wasn't on his way back to his vehicle, why are any subsequent claims any more reliable? They're all based around the one falsifiable assertion.
    Good point. And I for one think it highly unlikely GZ was returning to his truck. But even more than that, I don't think there's a chance in Hell that TM turned around and sought to confront the man he had just evaded (per the gf).

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  33. #618
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    Now be fair, Doc! In the first place, I basically agree with you on this case so the sarcasm isn't necessary. (It also isn't unkind. No big deal. )

    You and I both know there's a big difference between casually identifying your field of study in college and carelessly relating the story of killing another human being.

    But we are just hearing second-hand accounts. As I said, those are fine as general indications of what George is claiming, but to treat them as sacred scriptures and analyze every word is misleading when we don't even know if Jr. or Taefe got the story straight, or if they are embellishing (my personal suspicion) or what.

    We all do it, especially on slow news days. But every once in awhile, we need to step back and remember we haven't yet seen any of George's first-hand accounts.
    So I'm guessing when they get called to the witness stand because they've run onto all these programs stating that Zimmerman told them this and Zimmerman told them that, we will see how much they have embellished?


    ~jmo~

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  35. #619
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    Quote Originally Posted by m00c0w View Post
    That would imply that every prosecutor that files charges would get a guilty verdict because the evidence is so compelling. I can think of a football player and a female from Florida that can attest to this not being true. You just have to have probable cause to file charges. That's nowhere near "beyond a reasonable doubt".
    True, but as I'm sure you know, most prosecutors have very high conviction rates for cases that they actually file.

    Unfortunately, "high profile" cases seem to be very different animals. So I'm not making any predictions.

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  37. #620
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    Quote Originally Posted by RANCH View Post
    There's no telling at this point if he told a different story to LE than he did to his family. And I'm not sure if his family may have gotten some things wrong or tried to embellish the story or both.
    Just as I said in my previous post, I guess we will see how much they have embellished when they are on the witness stand because of the things they have stated Zimmerman told them.

    I would love to see Zimmerman Jr. up against Ms. Corey. I bet she could get to the bottom of just how conscious Zimmerman was, how he was screaming with a mouth full of blood not to mention with Trayvon's hand covering his mouth.

    ~jmo~

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  39. #621
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    Good point. And I for one think it highly unlikely GZ was returning to his truck. But even more than that, I don't think there's a chance in Hell that TM turned around and sought to confront the man he had just evaded (per the gf).
    I do believe Trayvon asked George why he was following him when he seen George was behind him again. I believe this is when George "reached for his phone" and replied "What are you doing here?"

    I do not believe that Trayvon said "What's your f***ing problem, homes" with George replying "Nothing" as he "reached for his phone."

    I do believe they did exchange words, but I don't think any physical altercation started until George "reached for his phone."

    MOO
    Justice for Trayvon

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  41. #622
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrienne37 View Post
    So I'm guessing when they get called to the witness stand because they've run onto all these programs stating that Zimmerman told them this and Zimmerman told them that, we will see how much they have embellished?


    ~jmo~
    Could be. But I don't know if we'll ever see them on the witness stand.

    I know there is an exception to the hearsay rule for incriminating statements. Is there one for exculpatory statements such as the stories GZ apparently told his family?

    Sr., Jr. and Taefe aren't actually witnesses to the incident. They might testify on GZ's injuries after the incident, I suppose.

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  43. #623
    Quote Originally Posted by LolaMoon08 View Post
    Like I believe that "reaching for the phone" was actually "reaching for the gun." There has to be a reason behind them even mentioning George "reaching" for anything. Why would that even be brought up? Get what I'm saying?
    Brilliant deduction! IMO, that sounds contrived to say that GZ himself was "innocently" making a phone call, but TM "jumped the gun," making an assumption.

    Perhaps this gives credence to TM having more of a SYG-type situation than we realized. Maybe TM saw the gun and only then did a struggle ensued.

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  45. #624
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    Quote Originally Posted by LolaMoon08 View Post
    I do believe Trayvon asked George why he was following him when he seen George was behind him again. I believe this is when George "reached for his phone" and replied "What are you doing here?"

    I do not believe that Trayvon said "What's your f***ing problem, homes" with George replying "Nothing" as he "reached for his phone."

    I do believe they did exchange words, but I don't think any physical altercation started until George "reached for his phone."

    MOO
    I rather agree. I suppose if GZ startled TM sufficiently, TM might have taken a swing out of instinct. But I'm more inclined to believe the gf's account, if it is as reported.

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  47. #625
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrienne37 View Post
    Just as I said in my previous post, I guess we will see how much they have embellished when they are on the witness stand because of the things they have stated Zimmerman told them.

    I would love to see Zimmerman Jr. up against Ms. Corey. I bet she could get to the bottom of just how conscious Zimmerman was, how he was screaming with a mouth full of blood not to mention with Trayvon's hand covering his mouth.

    ~jmo~
    I guess he could say "I wasn't there so how could I know what happened?"

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