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  1. #1
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    Weekend Discussion thread 04/21-24/2012

    Weekend Discussion Thread:

    reposting a few of the warnings:

    Salem's warning from last week:

    Okay everybody - LISTEN UP! We are not bashing, accusing or blaming Tori's family here. It won't be allowed.

    Children walk home from school every day without incident. Parents are not perfect, it's just not possible. Tori's parents DID NOT do this to her. TLM and an accomplice DID. That is where the blame goes.

    We had a lot of family bashing in the early parts of this investigation after Tori went missing and a lot of baseless accusations - NONE OF WHICH PROVED TO BE TRUE. Victim and family bashing will not be allowed during this trial.

    Thank you,
    Salem

    ---------------------------------


    As some of you may have noticed, the members following this case are dropping in numbers. It's disheartening to us because we need and welcome discussion of both sides of every issue on Websleuths.

    Zero tolerance means ZERO tolerance. Please discuss this case with respect to your fellow members. Subtle and veiled harassment and/or talking in code about other members will not be tolerated.

    A word of caution on the Alerts in this forum. If you alert a post, make sure it is a clear violation of our Terms of Service. A difference of opinion is not a violation of TOS.

    Please note that everything discussed in court and printed/tweeted is now within the realm of discussion. WS has never and does not now have a policy of "innocent until proven guilty." That is for the court room. Here, we discuss, speculate, theorize and judge according to the opinions we develop from following the case.

    Keeping that in mind, abuse of our alert system is a good way to find yourself in timeout or worse. Abuse of the alert systems includes, but is not limited to:

    Alerting repeatedly on the same poster;
    Demanding a specific outcome;
    Alerting on the same post more than once.

    Once you have alerted a post, move on and don't question the decisions of our Administrators, Moderators or Owners.

    Following this trial is very important to our members and we're going to see that they have their day in court. The "zero tolerance" policy in this forum will continue and it will be enforced.

    Thank you and please carry on.
    Sue aka SoSueMe
    Websleuths Co-Owner

    ------

    Please keep discussion focused on what has been presented in testimony and remember to link up as the partial publication ban is still in place
    Last edited by Salem; 04-23-2012 at 12:44 PM.

  2. #2
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    CS looked beautiful in her pin stripe suit with the satiny purple shirt underneath IMO. It choked me up and didn't catch the purple shirt til someone mentioned it. I think it is not a coincidence she wore the top IMO and it goes to show me how much this case means to people especially those who have been dragged into it. Tori really captured the hearts of so many people and no matter how you slice it, where you are in life; MTR crossed the line in such a monumental way. I cannot fathom what kind of defense they will put on when defense is up...cannot imagine. But we shall soon here.

    Yes kudos to all the witnesses that came forward for crown; they were brave and put themselves at many risks by coming forward but yet they did it. Sometimes good comes out of the darkest days and darkest events. I cannot help wonder how many lives Tori will have affected and effected positive change in due to her story. JMO
    As always, JMO

    Evil is; as evil does.


    Prayers for Jun Lin, his family and those that love him.
    Justice is patient, relentless in its pursuit and is on the march for Justin Lin....

  3. #3
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    The Judge's quote burns me up. I had to walk away from the computer yesterday because I thought I was having an anxiety attack! How could he say something like this? His character has everything to do with this crime!! Yes, some may interpret it as the Judge saying whether he had 1 or 1000 women makes no difference but he added "worse" part and that really irks me. If he was "pimping" these women, it is evidence that he had no regard for anyone but himself and also explains his behaviour following Tori's murder.

    Lying, cheating and worse, Judge Heeney!!! It has EVERYTHING to do with this crime!

    When the jurors returned, Justice Thomas Heeney cautioned them that testimony that Rafferty was dating numerous women, including an escort who supplied him with money, isn’t relevant to the charges he faces in the Stafford case.

    “All of this may lead you to believe that Mr. Rafferty was a philandering cad or worse . . . Whatever you may think of Mr. Rafferty’s character, it has no relevance to whether he is guilty of the crimes he is charge with,” Heeney said.
    http://www.woodstocksentinelreview.c...escort-service
    Justice for Holly Bobo🎀

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~n/t~ View Post
    The Judge's quote burns me up. I had to walk away from the computer yesterday because I thought I was having an anxiety attack! How could he say something like this? His character has everything to do with this crime!! Yes, some may interpret it as the Judge saying whether he had 1 or 1000 women makes no difference but he added "worse" part and that really irks me. If he was "pimping" these women, it is evidence that he had no regard for anyone but himself and also explains his behaviour following Tori's murder.

    Lying, cheating and worse, Judge Heeney!!! It has EVERYTHING to do with this crime!



    http://www.woodstocksentinelreview.c...escort-service
    not sure what the logic would be for his statement but as a judge i would think that anything he said would be crafted to NOT cause a mistrial. Guess he could only make a statement down the middle somewhere but try to remind jurors to stick to the facts and convict on the facts. JMO But ya understands the rub to his statement for sure. IMO
    As always, JMO

    Evil is; as evil does.


    Prayers for Jun Lin, his family and those that love him.
    Justice is patient, relentless in its pursuit and is on the march for Justin Lin....

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by snoofer View Post
    not sure what the logic would be for his statement but as a judge i would think that anything he said would be crafted to NOT cause a mistrial. Guess he could only make a statement down the middle somewhere but try to remind jurors to stick to the facts and convict on the facts. JMO But ya understands the rub to his statement for sure. IMO
    Well if that's the case, he should've made that statement 11 witnesses ago. Why yesterday? Because it was a bombshell? Because everyone in that courtroom were probably disgusted by this revelation? The accused child killer didn't like the fact that the audience gasped and complained to his attorney during the break? Was he upset because now the entire country knows the only reason he was "dating" these poor women was to use them and mentally abuse them? Like he did TLM? Promises of love and marriage for money, sex and murder?

    That is the evidence in this case. The truth. It is more relevant than the defense's continuous NECRO music lyrics references made during cross examination that have nothing to do with this case!

    Snoofer, please know that I'm not directing this at you. I'm venting and it is towards this Judge who I'm not very fond of.
    Justice for Holly Bobo🎀

  6. #6
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    ...Late Night News on a Vancover station there was an announcement ...That Steve Harper is giving " families that have chidren that are VICTIMS of Crimes" extra money weekly as they sit thru LENGTHY Trials for their children they have lost ....I think it was 300/week (aprox.) cannot remeber exactly and it did show Tori's Parents when Darren was reading that speak ...IMO this may be a start BUT again in my strong opinion Only .....I want to see the TORI LAW passed ...last check on website said they almost have enough signatures to bring it into Legislature ...again that is only for it to be heard.....I feel it is VITAL that we attempt to keep our children & teeangers safe from harm !....off topic but another teenager girl ...Crystal Iahtail age 14 ,Abirginal heretiage has been missing from Newmarket since Thurs. March 29, 2012 .She is 5' 6" weighs 130lbs shoulder length black hair and police have stated they fear she is in danger and in the downtown Toronto area now !...robynhood
    Last edited by robynhood; 04-21-2012 at 08:56 AM. Reason: edit extra info

  7. #7
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    ...OMg ...just reading yesterday's post( catching up) and must applaud the posters especially last post by BORGQUEEN.....I AGREE 100 PERCENT and I too am very upset as I write this too ! I was also in tears when I watched the first NEws Reports of TORI missing in 2009 and been glued to this site since ......

    It was actually my OLDEST son who said" mom you must watch ...a little girl named Tori went missing in Woodstock as he knows as a teacher I get extremely upset as I taught children tori's age.This has been every mother's worst nightmare ....and like you Borgqueen survived a terribly emotinally abusive marriage ...long ended a century ago but the wounds from emotional abuse last long . I can also spot an emotinally abusive person easily....I went thru many mnay years of therapy and was given exact profile charcteristics & traits to look for as being aware is crucial in HEALING process as one never wants to enter another one EVER!

    I also have worked in the field as a Special ed teacher trained in behavioral problems in troubled children .....so I am highly trained in this area ...Specialist degree in Sp ED....IMO and it is professinal >>>>many bells ring as I read this trial ! IMO it DOES have a lot to do with the case and do not understand the JUDGES comments ....but I am not a legal expert ....I personally find the courts & judges have a gudelines and if it does not fit into ther boxes of LeGAL RULES in Canada( from the LAw society and those ACTS they have # ( as their LEGAL constitution ) we see what happened yesterday...IMO ...I am stressing...I have seen it personally while I was in court fighting for child support owed !!!!!!....again I am stressing MY OPINIONS as I do not want to upset moderators here......! ...robynhood !

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by snoofer View Post
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ~n/t~ View Post
    The Judge's quote burns me up. I had to walk away from the computer yesterday because I thought I was having an anxiety attack! How could he say something like this? His character has everything to do with this crime!! Yes, some may interpret it as the Judge saying whether he had 1 or 1000 women makes no difference but he added "worse" part and that really irks me. If he was "pimping" these women, it is evidence that he had no regard for anyone but himself and also explains his behaviour following Tori's murder.

    Lying, cheating and worse, Judge Heeney!!! It has EVERYTHING to do with this crime!



    http://www.woodstocksentinelreview.c...escort-service
    not sure what the logic would be for his statement but as a judge i would think that anything he said would be crafted to NOT cause a mistrial. Guess he could only make a statement down the middle somewhere but try to remind jurors to stick to the facts and convict on the facts. JMO But ya understands the rub to his statement for sure. IMO
    It seems that Derstine must have made a very strong argument that the defendant's morals were not to be judged, just his guilt of the crimes as charged. While technically that's true, we all know that there's a connection between immoral character and criminal acts. While one is not necessary to cause the other, they do frequently occur together. There's no way the jury could associate TLM's demonstrated evil character with her apparent deeds and dismiss MR's character in considering his guilt.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~n/t~ View Post
    The Judge's quote burns me up. I had to walk away from the computer yesterday because I thought I was having an anxiety attack! How could he say something like this? His character has everything to do with this crime!! Yes, some may interpret it as the Judge saying whether he had 1 or 1000 women makes no difference but he added "worse" part and that really irks me. If he was "pimping" these women, it is evidence that he had no regard for anyone but himself and also explains his behaviour following Tori's murder.

    Lying, cheating and worse, Judge Heeney!!! It has EVERYTHING to do with this crime!



    http://www.woodstocksentinelreview.c...escort-service
    That "announcement" was made after there were some legal issues being discussed when the jury left the room. So after the crowd gasped and a jury member "recoiled", Derstine knew he had to attempt some damage control over the unexpected announcement from CS.

    As I've stated before, the Crown cannot bring in character witnesses for the defendent. It is considered prejudicial and cannot be done in the Canadian court system. With that said, the only reason they were allowed to bring all these women in was because they all had some information about the day of and the days following the crime about MR's actions and behaviours regarding the crime.

    If MR had never called, texted anyone that day or spoke about the crime with any of these women, none of them would have been permitted to testify about their "relationship" to him. Thankfully he did have contact with all of them during this time so that they could be brought in to speak of what he had told them or to verify parts of TLM's story such as CS stating that her BBM's to him were undeliverable for a period of time that day. And of course they are permitted to give a bit of background as to how they know the defendent to explain why he was tellng them this stuff.

    It worked very well to the Crown's advantage that he was stupid enough to be blabbing to them all. There could even be more that he didn't say anything to or have contact with on the crucial day that didn't show up on the witness stand.

    So the judge had to issue a disclaimer to tell the jury that these women were not brought in as character references but had actual evidence to present to them. It's a technicality really. Juries are human, and the Crown knew the impact that this "parade" of women was going to have on his image as an innocent dupe. But the jury cannot convict him because they think he's a pig. They have to use the other evidence for that. This parade of women just helps to put things in perspective when the defence starts in on their side of the story.

    MOO

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~n/t~ View Post
    The Judge's quote burns me up. I had to walk away from the computer yesterday because I thought I was having an anxiety attack! How could he say something like this? His character has everything to do with this crime!! Yes, some may interpret it as the Judge saying whether he had 1 or 1000 women makes no difference but he added "worse" part and that really irks me. If he was "pimping" these women, it is evidence that he had no regard for anyone but himself and also explains his behaviour following Tori's murder.

    Lying, cheating and worse, Judge Heeney!!! It has EVERYTHING to do with this crime!



    http://www.woodstocksentinelreview.c...escort-service
    I am sure Judge Heeney knows the law to the infinite detail.

    He may have done the Crown a favor by advising the jury, rather than excluding ALL the testimony of the parade of female witnesses.

    The results of this trial ARE subject to appeal by either side.

    I doubt the Crown would like to have a guilty verdict overturned on Appeal because they violated the rules of evidence.

    Derstine hasn't objected to all this testimony, perhaps because he is content to let the Crown introduce grounds for appeal into the trial, just in case his client is found guilty.

    The Crown needs to be cognizant that violating the accused trial rights to win a guilty plan, would be a short lived victory if lost on appeal.

    JMO..........


  11. #11
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    “All of this may lead you to believe that Mr. Rafferty was a philandering cad or worse . . . Whatever you may think of Mr. Rafferty’s character, it has no relevance to whether he is guilty of the crimes he is charge with,” Heeney said.
    I didn't like the judge's comment for a slightly different reason than n/t. did.

    I believe the judge was tryig to remind the jury that you can't assume someone is guilty just because you don't like their character or their lifestyle. I think that is a healthy reminder in the court. You have to convict based on the evidence as it pertains to the crime.

    The evidence showing his behaviour and habits, though, in this case might point to the fact that MR is a sexual addict and was constantly in touch with people ensuring he was going to 'get his fix'. If he showed a sudden change in behaviour, then that could be telling. So I hope the judge's comment isn't interpreted as meaning that none of this parade of sexual partners is relevant as evidence.
    Any man's death diminishes me,
    Because I am involved in mankind,
    Therefore, send not to know, for whom the bell tolls;
    It tolls for thee.
    ~John Dunne


    #TeamCivilization

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopster View Post
    I didn't like the judge's comment for a slightly different reason than n/t. did.

    I believe the judge was tryig to remind the jury that you can't assume someone is guilty just because you don't like their character or their lifestyle. I think that is a healthy reminder in the court. You have to convict based on the evidence as it pertains to the crime.

    The evidence showing his behaviour and habits, though, in this case might point to the fact that MR is a sexual addict and was constantly in touch with people ensuring he was going to 'get his fix'. If he showed a sudden change in behaviour, then that could be telling. So I hope the judge's comment isn't interpreted as meaning that none of this parade of sexual partners is relevant as evidence.

    I would also add the lengthy list of females and their testimony, also shows that none of them expressed any concern that MR had devious sexual desires. The females were from different educational and career backgrounds, some had young children, the relationships varied from single conversations or meetings to fairly lengthy periods of time.

    And as far as I know..........not one of them said anything about any sexual deviancy about MR.

    The defense still has to present their side........

    JMO

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~n/t~ View Post
    Well if that's the case, he should've made that statement 11 witnesses ago. Why yesterday? Because it was a bombshell? Because everyone in that courtroom were probably disgusted by this revelation? The accused child killer didn't like the fact that the audience gasped and complained to his attorney during the break? Was he upset because now the entire country knows the only reason he was "dating" these poor women was to use them and mentally abuse them? Like he did TLM? Promises of love and marriage for money, sex and murder?

    That is the evidence in this case. The truth. It is more relevant than the defense's continuous NECRO music lyrics references made during cross examination that have nothing to do with this case!

    Snoofer, please know that I'm not directing this at you. I'm venting and it is towards this Judge who I'm not very fond of.
    I am trying to understand too what he was thinking...scratching my head. JMO Agrees way more relevance than the NECRO music.
    As always, JMO

    Evil is; as evil does.


    Prayers for Jun Lin, his family and those that love him.
    Justice is patient, relentless in its pursuit and is on the march for Justin Lin....

  14. #14
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    Regarding frequency, timing and amounts of payments from CS to MTR, I tried to grab a screen shot from the LFP video to save for reference. I couldn't easily figure out how to post a larger, clearer version here (although it's pretty clear if you watch the video in full-screen mode and then just pause it).



    What you will see though, for the few months leading up to Apr 9, is that the deposits occurred on average every 2-3 days. Sometimes a couple of days in row, and sometimes several days apart. Amounts were typically in the $200 - $500 range, although there were several at $100 (a couple even lower) and one as large as $1000.

    The last deposit before Apr 8 was on Apr 4 for $100.

    Apr 8 there were the 2 deposits,as reported, for $400 at 9:47 and $100 at 2:58. There was another deposit of $300 on Apr 9 at 3:59.

    Then....nothing for almost 2 weeks. Strange.
    Any man's death diminishes me,
    Because I am involved in mankind,
    Therefore, send not to know, for whom the bell tolls;
    It tolls for thee.
    ~John Dunne


    #TeamCivilization

  15. #15
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    whoever started the list of occupations for MR could you please update the list and re post to include
    -whatever he was supposed to be doing in Australia (I'm sure one of you will remember what it was because I forget)
    -as well as a philandering cad (my personal fav and possibly his true occupation) I think the mere fact Judge H said this drove the point home.

    Thanks to all that posted for the trial date yesterday you all did a fabulous job, as always.
    ...

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