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Thread: Weekend Discussion thread 04/21-24/2012

  1. #651
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobodyzgirl View Post
    If there was a ban, the Crown would still be able to ask, the media would just not be allowed to report.
    So it's possible that we're not hearing everything? There seems to be many holes and unasked questions that I am really curious if there is something the jury is hearing but we are not.
    May you rest in peace.....Tori Stafford

    Missing but never forgotten Nicole Louise Morin last seen July 30th 1985

    http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32372

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  3. #652
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardy View Post
    It would be tough on a parent, but to lie would be perjury.......and not respectful of VS.

    MR was 28 and responsible for his own actions..........at some point you have to let go.

    JMO..............
    Well MR mother was not a witness for the crown that the seat was intact so i am assuming she would be the defence witness that the seat was out of the car. JMO Opps was responding to what i thought was a post i posted about this earlier sorry.

  4. #653
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    ..IMO a terrible deed was commited MURDER of an innocent 9 year old who was left for 3 mths in an undigified manner ...naked from the waist down and wrapped in GARBAGE BAGs and under pile of heavy rocks in a secluded farm area ...chances of being found slim!........ I do believe she was also RAPED ..as tough as this is to TYPE...IMO again! ....I feel strongly IMO that the evidense is CLEAR that MR was INVOLVED! ... it is clearly shown him driving his car after tori was ABUCTED ... so I MUST say I am PUZZLED as to why there are so many opinions that HE MAY not be guilty ...Imo I am having a very hard time reading this now....Yes I know the defense has not presented their case ...BUt ...IMO only>>> How can they possibly get him off ....???...He is ON VIDEO in numerous locations on that horrid day ...April 8 , 2009....again this in my opinion and yes I do understand MANY MAY have conflicting views and so be it .....But when someone is CLearly on Video ...kind of a no brainer IMO ...Plus he had 3 mths to get rid of the evidence( which he tried very hard to do..)if so much time did not lapse after the MURDER ... I am confident that we would have Little LEFT DOUBT in all of our minds more percisely what had occured ! ...thanks robynhood...I do respect others opposing views we all have the freedom in Canada to do have different views .BUT it all seems very concrete IMO again...I guess soon we will hear the defense's side ...and sure they are INTITLED to do this ...just hope it is NOT the same OLD BS about how bad a person TLM is and her music taste as IMO ...this holds very little crediablity ...especially her music ..OMG...hold on to your hats as I am Not looking forward to their side ....I think Tori's family has been thru the worst nightmare any Parent could face ....IMO I feel the TORI LAW needs to be looked at as crimes against children in our nation seems to growing terribly! ......especially by young offenders i ....Please listen closely was commented made ...and yes I do want to hear it explained as the defense indicated before the TRIAL that>>> something like...do not make judgements till you hear our side ....well all ears ...Mr. Defense!...robynhood...I stress again this is just IMO again!..robynhood

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  6. #654
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    Quote Originally Posted by brighidin View Post
    I think he threw TM's name around in the LE interview because he observed just how vilified TM was in the press and online. People really thought TM had something to do with Tori's disappearance, and, imo, he exploited that. He used that to try and get LE off his trail.

    imo
    Actually, I thought MR started thowing TM's name around BEFORE it hit the press? I could be wrong about that. I just thought it was very interesting that he knew about her from the bar and knew she was into the drug scene but he "was one of the good guys."

    Salem
    "If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking." George S. Patton, Jr.

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  8. #655
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    No Perfect Crimes...

    Quote Originally Posted by Macright View Post
    JMO
    my last post on this issue...I understand that many a thief has forgotten about a camera but what I am saying is IF they were so particular after the crime to cover their steps..ie: toss the clothing...wash the car...lose a car seat...etc. etc. why not be concerned at the start to cover their tracks... doesn't make sense to me at all...JMO and now I have stated all I want and from this debate I will move on....respectfully....
    I would say that there are no perfect crimes and that is why MR is in the situation he is in right now. His past is catching up with him--he doesn't seem capable of doing anything perfectly--he has left a trail like a catipillar--that why he is in jail.

    I firmly believe that TLM and MR acted TOGETHER in this crime against Torie from beginning to end.

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  10. #656
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    Actually, I thought MR started thowing TM's name around BEFORE it hit the press? I could be wrong about that. I just thought it was very interesting that he knew about her from the bar and knew she was into the drug scene but he "was one of the good guys."

    Salem
    Did MR state he knew her from this bar in his interview? I thought that was just internet gossip that she "hung around" there?

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  12. #657
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    Are there any TWEETS from the trial today?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fats View Post
    Are there any TWEETS from the trial today?
    No trial today.

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  15. #659
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    Quote Originally Posted by robynhood View Post
    ..IMO a terrible deed was commited MURDER of an innocent 9 year old who was left for 3 mths in an undigified manner ...naked from the waist down and wrapped in GARBAGE BAGs and under pile of heavy rocks in a secluded farm area ...chances of being found slim!........ I do believe she was also RAPED ..as tough as this is to TYPE...IMO again! ....I feel strongly IMO that the evidense is CLEAR that MR was INVOLVED! ... it is clearly shown him driving his car after tori was ABUCTED ... so I MUST say I am PUZZLED as to why there are so many opinions that HE MAY not be guilty ...Imo I am having a very hard time reading this now....Yes I know the defense has not presented their case ...BUt ...IMO only>>> How can they possibly get him off ....???...He is ON VIDEO in numerous locations on that horrid day ...April 8 , 2009....again this in my opinion and yes I do understand MANY MAY have conflicting views and so be it .....But when someone is CLearly on Video ...kind of a no brainer IMO ...Plus he had 3 mths to get rid of the evidence( which he tried very hard to do..)if so much time did not lapse after the MURDER ... I am confident that we would have Little LEFT DOUBT in all of our minds more percisely what had occured ! ...thanks robynhood...I do respect others opposing views we all have the freedom in Canada to do have different views .BUT it all seems very concrete IMO again...I guess soon we will hear the defense's side ...and sure they are INTITLED to do this ...just hope it is NOT the same OLD BS about how bad a person TLM is and her music taste as IMO ...this holds very little crediablity ...especially her music ..OMG...hold on to your hats as I am Not looking forward to their side ....I think Tori's family has been thru the worst nightmare any Parent could face ....IMO I feel the TORI LAW needs to be looked at as crimes against children in our nation seems to growing terribly! ......especially by young offenders i ....Please listen closely was commented made ...and yes I do want to hear it explained as the defense indicated before the TRIAL that>>> something like...do not make judgements till you hear our side ....well all ears ...Mr. Defense!...robynhood...I stress again this is just IMO again!..robynhood
    I'd be very surprised if MR was found not guilty even if he didn't know VS was kidnapped he sure did when he was cleaning up the crime scene and the way he was able to carry on like nothing happened. It will be the rape that may or may not stick. But i am sure murder and kidnapping charges will stick. IMO

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  17. #660
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyladi View Post
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nobodyzgirl View Post
    If there was a ban, the Crown would still be able to ask, the media would just not be allowed to report.
    So it's possible that we're not hearing everything? There seems to be many holes and unasked questions that I am really curious if there is something the jury is hearing but we are not.
    My feeling is that if there were any testimony under a media ban, the reporters would say so, just not report it.

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  19. #661
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardy View Post
    Jezebel......If I could be so bold as to ask......

    Since you were actually there, and all we are reading is tweets etc........did you get the feeling during her testimony.............

    Did TLM look at the Crown and defense when they were asking her questions?

    I can’t really answer this one, I was in the overflow room, which I was lucky to even get in there, her first day of testimony the courtroom and overflow room were packed, some were sitting on the floor at one point. There was an abundance of media there. From what I could tell from the wide shot angle of TLM did appear to be looking at the crown when he was asking questions.

    Did she appear "stuck for an answer" at times and start sobbing, wiping away tears or ask for a recess?

    She was sobbing a lot at times, also took long pauses between answers, also asked to have a minute and at the time the crown then asked for afternoon recess. My hesitation for thinking her long pauses were to stall to get her answer together is because, even when her testimony began she was doing the same thing. The crown started very slowly, asking about her, her background, parents, where she grew up etc, throughout this whole time TLM was speaking very slowly and often taking long pauses, including after being asked about places where she grew up. I don’t want to say she came across as a little nervous but I did get the impression she did not want to be in the spotlight per say.

    Or was her testimony as smooth as would be expected under the circumstances?

    Her testimony was quite consistent, a lot of the time it was hard to hear her, either for sniffing, sobbing or talking very quietly as the day wore on and the testimony got more intense (meaning to the guts of what happened that day) she was definitely emotional. After she was saying she was having flash backs and was full of rage, and then was asked “what happened next” she did hesitate for a long time, she was sobbing and sniffing and then almost inaudibly she said “I savagely murdered that little girl”

    Just wondering.......because the tweets tell us nothing about that.

    I also wonder.......and odd question I know..........

    What do you think would have been her reaction, had you got up from your seat, walked right up to her and stuck your face in her face, and told her you didn't believe her and she was a liar?

    I have never thought of that, but I have a feeling that if I did that, she would be quote adamant that she was not lying and I would hope I wouldn’t get a punch in the face.


    Any thoughts?

    JMO.................


    I don’t know if this helps at all Ardy, I was only there for her first day of testimony, so I didn’t get to see what happened on cross and I am just going by memory mostly. I can be quite a cynical person at times (like most I am sure) I just didn’t get the impression she was lying the whole time. She was very detailed in her statements about how, what, where MR was doing to TS, I couldn’t go into that if I was lying, but then I am nothing like her and it’s hard to know how her mind works. I think she put on a tough front, but maybe wasn’t as tough on the inside, yeah no hesitation in assaulting/stabbing people etc, but I think that she did want to feel loved, she got upset while talking about her childhood and being bullied as her mom was an alcoholic etc. In no way am I saying that I think she was completely duped and manipulated by MR, but I think there is a lot of truth to her story and they both were in this together.


  20. #662
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyladi View Post
    I have a question.

    Is it possible there there are many publication bans that the crown was unable to ask certain questions to help his case?

    I feel that after this trial is over something is going to come out. Maybe it will have to do with MTR, TLM or other people.

    I just have this sense that there is a reason why they havent dove into certain areas that are crucial in proving MTR's Guilt. JMO
    I think we just are not getting all the information. I think many of the questions that we have, were actually asked of the witnesses, but for whatever reason, they were not tweeted or put into the articles at the end of the day. Maybe not sensational enough, or the reporter didn't think it was important or interesting. Remember - the reporters are not writing for hardcore WS sleuths - they are writing for the general public, so they pick and choose what they think the general public wants to read - not what sleuths want to read LOL

    Salem
    "If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking." George S. Patton, Jr.

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  22. #663
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    I think we just are not getting all the information. I think many of the questions that we have, were actually asked of the witnesses, but for whatever reason, they were not tweeted or put into the articles at the end of the day. Maybe not sensational enough, or the reporter didn't think it was important or interesting. Remember - the reporters are not writing for hardcore WS sleuths - they are writing for the general public, so they pick and choose what they think the general public wants to read - not what sleuths want to read LOL

    Salem
    I think you're right Salem. I remember the first day of TLM's testimony when the audio cut out while she was testifying about how MR would take her to homes that he knew the layout of and tell her that they could tie someone up and kidnap them. I'm sure there was more testimony about that after the audio cut out and the pictures of a couple of homes were entered into evidence and posted on some online sites but because of the explosive nature of the rest of the testimony, nothing from that part of the testimony was reported on from anyone in the courtroom who could hear it.

    So I do think there is testimony that we are not getting via the tweet system or even in news articles.

    MOO

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  24. #664
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmclaren View Post
    Did MR state he knew her from this bar in his interview? I thought that was just internet gossip that she "hung around" there?
    I thought that also. I don't recall MR ever saying that he actually knew her. I vaguely remember during the interview he said "he knew of her". TM started with the pressers daily right from the beginning of Tori's disappearance, so the interrview was was after the first few pressers.

    I know there is testimony from TM saying she had met TLM on a few occassions, while purchasing drugs from her mother and then the discussion regarding dog breeding, though I don't recall TM saying she knew MR. Then again, I don't recall her saying she didn't know him either, though I think someone mentioned she had mentioned that in one of the pressers (I'm assuming after MR was arrested).
    Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends.
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  26. #665
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    Remembering Tori Posted less than an hour ago by Blair R. Wilson

    More than 3 years following the disappearance and untimely passing of 8 year old Tori Stafford, memories of the little girl continue to flourish in her favourite color.

    Purple wristbands were handed out this morning by Toriís Uncle Robert Stafford to members of the media at Londonís courthouse prior to legal arguments between the defense and the Crown at the first degree murder trial of Michael Rafferty.

    Wristbands were also handed to some members of the courts.

    The wristbands, a collaborative effort provided by Toriís Aunt and Uncle who flew out from Alberta over the weekend, along with Toriís Grandmother Doreen, illustrate Toriís birth date and the date Tori was lured away from her public school Ė April 8, 2009.

    A small graphic of a ribbon and a butterfly are also embedded on the purple wristbands Ė one of Toriís favourite creatures of nature.

    An inscription was also placed on the wristbands where one Reporter gratefully accepted it, smiled and said quietly to the Stafford family "thank you, I will keep this foreverĒ.

    The first degree murder trial will resume Wednesday morning at 10 am.


    http://www.1047.ca/local-news/michael-rafferty-trial




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  28. #666
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    Does anyone know where I can get or purchase those bracelets?? TIA
    Justice for Holly Bobo🎀

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  30. #667
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    Reposted as requested with pictures resized.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by maxfactor
    And for those who think he couldn't have just pulled up to Oliver Stephens to pick them up( if he really thought they were babysitting) I just found Oliver Stephens on Google Street View and lo and behold school buses lined up with the parents vehicles lined up behind them. So IMO that is just a load of cr*p.
    Dang, my link isn't working!! Swedie!!! Help!!! lol
    Respectfully, I don't remember anyone saying that you can't pull up into the school. Both myself and Ardy questioned whether you could because, at many schools, you can't.

    As you can see by the google streetview, there is no parking on the street at any time on the school side, and during school arrival, lunch and departure times on the other side of the street. Judging by Kamille's photos of the views, it appears to be taken during school times since the buses are there, and the street itself is quite clear of cars parked illegally waiting.

    School side:



    Across from the school:



    JMO
    The truth does not cease to exist because it is ignored. ~ Aldous Huxley

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  32. #668
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyladi View Post
    His demeanour during the whole thing still makes me wonder if he has done this before. He is way to calm, goes to get drugs, timmies etc. Without even being worried that he could get caught. How can someone be so calm with an 8yr old in the back seat that doesnt belong to them??? I really dont think Tori gave much of a struggle, she was probably too scared. JMO
    It's possible she was subdued in some way, I was sure she had been given drugs, but there appears to have been no evidence of that. Perhaps he punched her, or TLM did say he wasn't too happy about them talking so he may have yelled at TS to shut up and at this point got really scared. Probably why she didn 't want to be left alone with him at Timmies.
    Though I fall, I fall like a star, streaming splendour through the sky.
    Justice has not failed Victoria... Rest in peace Angel.

    Princess on Earth, Angel in Heaven


    ďIf two points are destined to touch, the universe will always find a way to make the connection. Even when all hope seems lost, certain ties cannot be broken. They define who we are ó and who we can become. Across space, across time, even across paths we cannot predict.Ē -Touch

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  34. #669
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    Quote Originally Posted by brighidin View Post
    That is not for certain. I looked for and posted some links about dangerous offender status in an earlier thread. First, very few women have been classified in that manner. Second, at least one of them had that status revoked and they were freed from jail. Pleading guilty and getting 25 years is not a benefit to her: if she would have went to trial, she might have been acquitted (IMO she wouldn't and shouldn't have been, but you never know with a jury). Please do the research on dangerous offender status; it isn't a given, nor is it akin to throwing away the key.

    http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/LOP/Re.../prb0613-e.htm
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/...-offender.html
    http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/rsrch/...r125-eng.shtml
    eta: imo
    I respectfully disagree, VS died in the course of a kidnapping ... 1st degree murder receive an automatic life sentence with no chance of parole for 25 years... after pleading guilty the kidnapping charges against her were dropped and she was not deemed a dangerous offender. The examples you supplied of the women deemed dangerous offenders (from link 2) were women charged with robbery or cocaine trafficking, nothing involiving the kidnapping of a child and murder.

    April 30, 2010
    Terri-Lynne McClintic pleads guilty to first-degree murder and is convicted. She is handed a sentence of mandatory life imprisonment, with a chance of parole in 25 years

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  36. #670
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hello_Kitty View Post
    It's possible she was subdued in some way, I was sure she had been given drugs, but there appears to have been no evidence of that. Perhaps he punched her, or TLM did say he wasn't too happy about them talking so he may have yelled at TS to shut up and at this point got really scared. Probably why she didn 't want to be left alone with him at Timmies.
    But he was okay with leaving them to talk while he was in BA house for 10 minutes? Something not right with this. JMO

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  38. #671
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~n/t~ View Post
    Does anyone know where I can get or purchase those bracelets?? TIA
    I don't but if you ever find out, can you let me know? Please and thanks

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  40. #672
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkzerz View Post
    But he was okay with leaving them to talk while he was in BA house for 10 minutes? Something not right with this. JMO
    I don't know if they were talking at that point, but MR could have been angry with TLM for talking to Tori about the things she liked. She asked Tori about her favorite shows and holiday. Rafferty probably didn't like that. JMO

    She said Rafferty took the battery out of his cellphone and that he told her cover Stafford up with a black pea coat in the backseat. McClintic told the court that as she spoke with Stafford, the little girl told her that her favourite colour is purple, her favourite TV show is Hannah Montana and her favourite holiday is Halloween.
    http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/03/13/m...ds-kidnapping/

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  42. #673
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    Originally Posted by Alethea Dice
    I hadn't watched the entire interview. Couldn't make it through it. I'll try to find some time later. I wonder why the sexual assault charge wasn't laid until a year later then?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamille View Post
    It may have been but we just didn't hear about it because of the publication ban.

    MOO
    According to the media, that charge wasn't laid until June of 2010.

    Rafferty also faces an additional charge of sexual assault causing bodily harm, reported Delaney. The charge, which is listed on Rafferty's indictment, was laid in June 2010.
    http://http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Can...begins-120116/
    The truth does not cease to exist because it is ignored. ~ Aldous Huxley

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  44. #674
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    I thought this post from SurfieTX in the Isabel Celis thread was interesting, and sure did suit this case.

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7828030&postcount=2"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - AZ Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 #3[/ame]

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  46. #675
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarrieBean View Post
    I thought this post from SurfieTX in the Isabel Celis thread was interesting, and sure did suit this case.

    Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - AZ Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 #3
    The last paragraph is MR dead on. JMO

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