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  1. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarrieBean View Post
    At this point, I don't believe Tori was specifically targeted. I think that in a town this small people are bound to know each other, whether just in passing, buying drugs, from the grocery store, whatever. I think that a little girl would have died that day (or soon after) even if Tori hadn't unfortunately walked home alone that day...it would have been another little girl. Even if they had to grab one off the street.

    I don't think TM buying pills from TLM's mother had any part of it and I don't think the girl MR dated, who had a daughter who played with Tori, had anything to do with it. I think they just waited for an opportunity, and Tori just happened to be walking alone that day. It looks like Tori was always with someone walking and that day just happened to be unusual and fit it with these POS's plans.
    bbm
    Just a comment on the bolded portion, Woodstock is a city with 35,000 people and alot of smaller communities surrounding it. Everyone does not know everyone. Maybe in the drug community, I can't speak to that, but not everyday people. There are 6 major grocery stores in the city that I can think of offhand. I didn't want people to think that there is just 1 that you shop at regularly and recognize the same people. There are at least a half dozen elementary schools as well. HTH.


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  3. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardy View Post
    I too have been wondering why VS had no clothes on from the waist down.

    It could be circumstantial evidence of a sexual assault.

    Or, there could be other explanations, depending on what happened at teh actual crime scene.

    Given the spot of blood on the back doorway of the car, I believe there was a lot more of it there before it was cleaned up. Therefore, I believe the facial injuries to VS occurred inside the car doorway as VS was being pulled out of the car by an enraged TLM.

    I believe something happened to send TLM off into the rage that resulted in VS death. TLM has provided no testimony on "why" she decided to kill VS.

    If true, there may have been blood all over the moulding and side of the car, and they may have had to clean up the evidence of blood from the side of the car before they continued to the car wash for a more thorough cleaning.

    Perhaps they used VS pants to clean up some of the blood. They didn't exactly have the tools with them to thoroughly wash a car in that secluded location........so they used what they had on hand.

    What was going through MR's mind...........I can't even fathom.

    Why he wouldn't have thrown TLM to the ground and held her until LE arrived, I don't know. Maybe in her rage, even he was afraid of what she might do to him out on that secluded farm lane.

    Perhaps she threatened him by saying.........you are in it as much as I am, or he completely lost his mind..........or he is simply a freak of nature who doesn't accept any responsibility for anything he does and justified his non action to himself by thinking he didn't actually do anything.

    2) Or.....as some think.......he sexually assaulted VS and let TLM murder her.

    If MR had a shred of common decency or humanity in him, I would think the first scenario would be the logical one.

    JMO......................
    I believe the most reasonable explanation for a little girl who is found in a remote area deceased, with no pants, evidence of her blood mixed with semen in HIS vehicle, and eye witness testimony, is sexual assault. JMO
    Last edited by Salem; 04-23-2012 at 12:22 AM. Reason: Forgot JMO!/fix quote


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  5. #393
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    ...agree with ya carrie...POST # 375...But need help from other posters..I am certain that TLM was seen around Tori's school on a few ocassions...IMo & other posters who have been on hear may remember too...IMO...I remeber hearing that TLM was seen on video walking her dog....before April8 2009 >>>> and I THINK stated that she did somewhere on this forum way back after Tori was found on July 19 , 2009...Please am I not correct?????....IMO ...I have this gut feeling that Tori MAY have met her walking her dog....very pecular that The ONE day Darren was NOT there she was TAKEN....my be coincidence ...but just IMO ...and think I read this here @ the very beginng of this case in 2009 ????...anyone remeber????.....IT may explain why Tori believed there was a puppy to see again????....robynhood


  6. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamille View Post
    If MR had a shred of common decency or humanity in him, this trial would not be happening. So you can count that out.

    And the first scenario is lacking all logic IMO.

    MOO
    If MR had called the police at the crime scene, he likely would sitting in the same place as he is now........IMO

    LE isn't going to show up at a horrific crime scene and let anyone walk away.

    TLM said MR did it.......and MR was arrested and charged on her statement.

    If she said he did it at the scene..........why would the result be any different?

    JMO...........


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  8. #395
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    ..thanks Mystic knew I read that same thing...Tori knew TLM had a dog! thanks agin ..robynhood!


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  10. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmhco View Post
    Just out of curiosity, what kind of evidence would you expect to find on a body that was decomposing for over three months and a suspect who was free to cover his tracks for 6 weeks? Should we not even try cases where DNA doesn't reveal the complete facts of the case? JMO
    Well said, good post.


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  12. #397
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    wondergirl

    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Well said, good post.
    ...excellent post ..agree 100 percent


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  14. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardy View Post
    If MR had called the police at the crime scene, he likely would sitting in the same place as he is now........IMO

    LE isn't going to show up at a horrific crime scene and let anyone walk away.

    TLM said MR did it.......and MR was arrested and charged on her statement.

    If she said he did it at the scene..........why would the result be any different?

    JMO...........
    They would have had forensics which is precisely why he did not call. JMO


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  16. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmhco View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardy View Post
    I too have been wondering why VS had no clothes on from the waist down.

    I believe the most reasonable explanation for a little girl who is found in a remote area deceased, with no pants, evidence of her blood mixed with semen in HIS vehicle, and eye witness testimony, is sexual assault. JMO
    Snipped by me.
    I am not going to say that I fully understand the forensic evidence, because I don't. But I don't believe TS's blood was found mixed with semen. A spot was examined and found with TS's blood and unidentified sperm fractions. I don't even know if this is possible but it is how I am thinking this could have happened (because I really, really don't want to believe the rape). I would concede that the sperm is MR's. It is evidence that he had sex with TLM in the front seat and I would think it is safe to assume he has had sex with others in the car. It doesn't appear that he used a condom with TLM, is it not possible that there was sperm fractions on his hands or hers while they are cleaning/wiping themselves and it is transferred to side mouldings and elsewhere. Then TS's blood is splattered during the murder and it lands on one of the spots. I don't think this is a coincidence that it landed on an exact sperm spot because they didn't swab the entire car, it is my understanding that they examined spots that clearly had blood stain on it as that is what they were looking for. Makes sense to me that blood splatter/stain would be more visible than sperm. So there could be sperm fractions all over the car but were not examined as it was not evident because it isn't highlighted by the blood. Not sure if this makes sense. Any thoughts?
    Last edited by Salem; 04-23-2012 at 12:22 AM. Reason: fix quotes


  17. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardy View Post
    If MR had called the police at the crime scene, he likely would sitting in the same place as he is now........IMO

    LE isn't going to show up at a horrific crime scene and let anyone walk away.

    TLM said MR did it.......and MR was arrested and charged on her statement.

    If she said he did it at the scene..........why would the result be any different?

    JMO...........
    Because the forensics would have been there right along with TLM. Or the lack of forensics as it were if you are to believe his version of events. And he knew it. So he didn't call. If his story was true and he'd have called the police at the scene, he would be a free man today.

    MOO


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  19. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by jolady View Post
    bbm
    Just a comment on the bolded portion, Woodstock is a city with 35,000 people and alot of smaller communities surrounding it. Everyone does not know everyone. Maybe in the drug community, I can't speak to that, but not everyday people. There are 6 major grocery stores in the city that I can think of offhand. I didn't want people to think that there is just 1 that you shop at regularly and recognize the same people. There are at least a half dozen elementary schools as well. HTH.
    People in the same age groups tend to know each other though.

    The elementary schools narrow down to 4 high schools.

    Through minor sports........they know each other.

    Through parties and the few bars...........they know each other.

    The druggy crowd narrows it down some more.

    By the age of the people involved........young adults.......many have left Woodstock and gone on to University, College or work somewhere else.

    The ones still remaining in Woodstock, and involved in the drug culture, are greatly reduced.

    They know where to buy their drugs, who to sell their drugs to, who is taking what, and where to borrow drugs when needed.

    The methadone clinic does draw some addicts into the city from surround towns, and they may not be as well known as those born and raised in Woodstock.

    I would be more surprised the people in this sad story don't know each other, or at least of each other, than did know each other.

    JMO.............


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  21. #402
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    [quote=jolady;7820757]
    Quote Originally Posted by tmhco View Post

    Snipped by me.
    I am not going to say that I fully understand the forensic evidence, because I don't. But I don't believe TS's blood was found mixed with semen. A spot was examined and found with TS's blood and unidentified sperm fractions. I don't even know if this is possible but it is how I am thinking this could have happened (because I really, really don't want to believe the rape). I would concede that the sperm is MR's. It is evidence that he had sex with TLM in the front seat and I would think it is safe to assume he has had sex with others in the car. It doesn't appear that he used a condom with TLM, is it not possible that there was sperm fractions on his hands or hers while they are cleaning/wiping themselves and it is transferred to side mouldings and elsewhere. Then TS's blood is splattered during the murder and it lands on one of the spots. I don't think this is a coincidence that it landed on an exact sperm spot because they didn't swab the entire car, it is my understanding that they examined spots that clearly had blood stain on it as that is what they were looking for. Makes sense to me that blood splatter/stain would be more visible than sperm. So there could be sperm fractions all over the car but were not examined as it was not evident because it isn't highlighted by the blood. Not sure if this makes sense. Any thoughts?
    The specimen did not meet the standards to call it semen. What I take from that is that is it was most likely semen. Coupled with the rest of the evidence, it is just too much of a coincidence for me.

    I would like nothing more than to know that she did not suffer that part of it. I just don't see any other reasonable explanation. What did TLM want with Tori? JMO


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  23. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarrieBean View Post
    I don't need to be told about small towns. I never claimed everybody knows everybody (that's a figure of speech for people in small towns). I've been living in the same town of approx. 75, 000 for the past 17 years. Of course I don't know everybody however there is a good chance I have crossed paths for any number of reasons over the years with the majority.

    My point was that there is a good chance that these two could have come across Tori, anyone in her family, anyone who knew Tori''s family, etc. but it doesn't mean Tori was targeted. I don't believe she was their target. I think they would have taken any little girl given the chance.
    Wow, sorry. I wasn't trying to school you on small towns. From your post I just wasn't sure you were aware of how big or small a city Woodstock actually is that was it. I only bolded that part of your post and not the other because I didn't disagree with your belief that she was wasn't their target. Just trying to clarify the small town part. Yikes.


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  25. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamille View Post
    Because the forensics would have been there right along with TLM. Or the lack of forensics as it were if you are to believe his version of events. And he knew it. So he didn't call. If his story was true and he'd have called the police at the scene, he would be a free man today.

    MOO
    What forensics?

    If no sexual assault took place..........the only forensic proof they would have found is the location of the blood, and TLM's fingerprints on the hammer.

    LE knows she bought the hammer. They know she wielded the hammer.

    Still, MR is charged with the murder, because he was there and TLM accused him of the kidnapping and sexual assault.

    TLM could not have accused him of sexual assault........but she could accuse him of kidnapping and murder. She could have said the same things she does now.

    I don't know why I did it.......I can't answer that..........I had flashbacks......

    IMO.........MR would still be on trial............IMO..........

    If he is innocent he should have called LE right away.........and went to trial like a man. His behavior after the fact was disgusting.........but he isn't on trial for being of low moral character...........JMO.


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  27. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by matou View Post
    MR's car passes the point where TLM and Tori are captured on video camera at 3:30:56 and then TLM and Tori are on camera at the same spot at 3:32:20. That's MR driving by 84 seconds before Tori and TLM get there.






    http://www.scribd.com/doc/84386320/R...Trial-Evidence

    This shows planning. JMO
    Thank you, sometimes pictures help get the point I was trying to make across... 84 seconds apart, likely meant he drove right by them, why not just stop and load them up, heck, if a kidnap, sex assault and murder were the order of the day and one of the people involved happens to be the business partner in an escort service, possible drug dealer I doubt he's afraid of a traffic violation for stopping in a no parking zone, but likely more fearful of someone seeing TLM and TS get in his car if he stopped on the main street, but rather planned to go to the furthest away place to park away from all the activity of kids and parents leaving the school at dismisal time. There would have been a greater chance of being noticed. Many people wouldn't think twice if they saw an 18 year old female walking with a 8 year old girl, however people may take note of 18 year old girl and 8 year old child getting into beat to crap hand painted Honda civic driven by a 28 year old male.

    The pickup in my opinion was fully planned and executed with only one flaw in the plan, the video camera. I'm willing to bet that car was on the 401 within 3 minutes, there wouldnt have been any stops in Woodstock with TS in that car as it would have been too much of a risk. Then again, perhaps they all stopped at Wendy's on the way out to the 401, after all they were just babysitting TS.... Trust me, no reasonable adult sitting on the jury would be lead to think that's the case. Let's just hope there isn't any unreasonable people on it who will buy into whatever the defense presents.
    Last edited by Salem; 04-23-2012 at 12:27 AM. Reason: Removed pictures because they are blowing margins - can see pics at link or in the original post.


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