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Thread: Weekend Discussion thread 04/21-24/2012

  1. #726
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    I am surprised that anyone would try to paint one half of a murderous team as an innocent. They both knew perfectly well that if they left Tori alive they would be arrested for what they did ... that the only hope of getting away with it was to eliminate the witness. There's no way that MR was ignorant about how the plan ended.
    Great post Otto!
    Though I fall, I fall like a star, streaming splendour through the sky.
    Justice has not failed Victoria... Rest in peace Angel.

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    “If two points are destined to touch, the universe will always find a way to make the connection. Even when all hope seems lost, certain ties cannot be broken. They define who we are — and who we can become. Across space, across time, even across paths we cannot predict.” -Touch

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  3. #727
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    How many people would feel comfortable leaving a female child under the age of nine alone with someone like MR? To believe that he was duped, or that truthfulness from his accomplice is required, does one also believe that a young female child would be safe in his care? Personally, I think there is plenty of evidence, excluding his accomplice, that points to his guilt. His accomplice can tell as many lies as she wants and his lawyer can obfuscate the truth all he wants, but MR still doesn't look duped or innocent to me.
    BBM: For anyone on the post or convinced of his innocence, this is the perfect question to ask yourself!

    Would you leave a girl under age 9 alone with MTR?

    JMO

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  5. #728
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    Are you saying MTR was a "poopy pants" too?? JMO


    Physical: poor hygiene, tactilely defensive, enuresis and encopresis, accident prone, high pain tolerance, genetic predispositions (e.g., depression, hyperactivity).
    Last edited by snoofer; 04-24-2012 at 07:08 PM.
    As always, JMO

    Evil is; as evil does.


    Prayers for Jun Lin, his family and those that love him.
    Justice is patient, relentless in its pursuit and is on the march for Justin Lin....

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  7. #729
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    Quote Originally Posted by matou View Post
    MR bought 300 percs while Tori was in the car. Great babysitting. Maybe Tori had to go because she knew he bought that many pills? Just another thing to add to the list. He wanted to rape her and she knew about all the drugs he bought too. So she had to die. JMO
    Hmm, I don't think he bought 300 percs Matou. I think he bought 300$ worth of percs. If he'd bought 300@3$ a piece, he'd have paid 900$.
    Though I fall, I fall like a star, streaming splendour through the sky.
    Justice has not failed Victoria... Rest in peace Angel.

    Princess on Earth, Angel in Heaven


    “If two points are destined to touch, the universe will always find a way to make the connection. Even when all hope seems lost, certain ties cannot be broken. They define who we are — and who we can become. Across space, across time, even across paths we cannot predict.” -Touch

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  9. #730
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    BBM: For anyone on the post or convinced of his innocence, this is the perfect question to ask yourself!

    Would you leave a girl under age 9 alone with MTR? AND with a hammer![COLOR="DarkGreen"][/COLOR]

    JMO
    No way; heck I wouldn't want to be alone with him let alone leave an 8 year old with him. JMO

    I added the "and with a hammer" was supposed to be in green :O) Oops.

    ok my editing skills suck! JMO
    As always, JMO

    Evil is; as evil does.


    Prayers for Jun Lin, his family and those that love him.
    Justice is patient, relentless in its pursuit and is on the march for Justin Lin....

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  11. #731
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    Quote Originally Posted by matou View Post
    I can't wait to hear what MR did while TLM was killing Tori. He didn't use his phone. Where did he go? What did he do? What did she tell him was going to happen?

    How is Derstine going to present the evidence of where MTR was and what he was doing while TLM was murdering Tori, without putting MTR on the stand?

    Who is going to say "he was driving/walking around, so upset over the fact that he was breaking up with Springtime Girlfriend #15, while TLM was murdering Tori in the field that he knew so well and just happened to stumble back upon....."

    Really, though, who is Derstine going to put on the stand to explain what MTR was doing?

    Does he actually have an alibi, someone who will take the stand and say they were with him?

    I think we WILL see MTR on the stand. His ego tells me so. He has nothing to lose.

    JMO

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  13. #732
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    How is Derstine going to present the evidence of where MTR was and what he was doing while TLM was murdering Tori, without putting MTR on the stand?

    Who is going to say "he was driving/walking around, so upset over the fact that he was breaking up with Springtime Girlfriend #15, while TLM was murdering Tori in the field that he knew so well and just happened to stumble back upon....."

    Really, though, who is Derstine going to put on the stand to explain what MTR was doing?

    Does he actually have an alibi, someone who will take the stand and say they were with him?

    I think we WILL see MTR on the stand. His ego tells me so. He has nothing to lose.

    JMO
    very good points; you might be right. He might think he is slick enough to pull it off; try spouting details like TLM so it becomes a he said she said. Do you think that he will try and "enact" a replica of TLM's testimony?????So then who do you believe??? Except, it is 3 years later. JMO
    As always, JMO

    Evil is; as evil does.


    Prayers for Jun Lin, his family and those that love him.
    Justice is patient, relentless in its pursuit and is on the march for Justin Lin....

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  15. #733
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    Does anyone else wonder if MTR ever threatened anyone else with a hammer? JMO
    As always, JMO

    Evil is; as evil does.


    Prayers for Jun Lin, his family and those that love him.
    Justice is patient, relentless in its pursuit and is on the march for Justin Lin....

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  17. #734
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    I am surprised that anyone would try to paint one half of a murderous team as an innocent. They both knew perfectly well that if they left Tori alive they would be arrested for what they did ... that the only hope of getting away with it was to eliminate the witness. There's no way that MR was ignorant about how the plan ended.

    BBM: Funny thing is Otto, even Rafferty's Defense has admitted his guilt. He admitted MTR "cleaned up" Victoria's remains (because he had to, just look at all the physical evidence).

    So, Derstine is not even attempting to claim innocence for his client.

    JMO

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  19. #735
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    How is Derstine going to present the evidence of where MTR was and what he was doing while TLM was murdering Tori, without putting MTR on the stand?

    Who is going to say "he was driving/walking around, so upset over the fact that he was breaking up with Springtime Girlfriend #15, while TLM was murdering Tori in the field that he knew so well and just happened to stumble back upon....."

    Really, though, who is Derstine going to put on the stand to explain what MTR was doing?

    Does he actually have an alibi, someone who will take the stand and say they were with him?

    I think we WILL see MTR on the stand. His ego tells me so. He has nothing to lose.

    JMO
    If MTR was somewhere else completely while TLM was killing Tori, wouldn't Derstine have to prove this?

    And if he was in the field somewhere, did he not hear Tori screaming while TLM was stomping and kicking her? WTH... any normal person would come running.

    I wonder if he's gonna try say that MTR was in Fergus where one of the pings was detected.

    JMO
    Though I fall, I fall like a star, streaming splendour through the sky.
    Justice has not failed Victoria... Rest in peace Angel.

    Princess on Earth, Angel in Heaven


    “If two points are destined to touch, the universe will always find a way to make the connection. Even when all hope seems lost, certain ties cannot be broken. They define who we are — and who we can become. Across space, across time, even across paths we cannot predict.” -Touch

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  21. #736
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    BBM: For anyone on the post or convinced of his innocence, this is the perfect question to ask yourself!

    Would you leave a girl under age 9 alone with MTR?

    JMO

    Well I have already answered that question a few pages back. ....can't imagine anyone even suggesting that he is totally innocent of all charges...but I can understand why some, me included are undecided about some of the charges.. JMO..also I would hate to see someone convicted of a 1st degree murder charge when in this instance someone other than the current accused has testified that it was in fact SHE who did the deed... I think the crown would have to have more proof than they have shown to get him on a 1st degree murder charge but hey one never knows...the law works in mysterious ways...or so they say....JMO

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  23. #737
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    How many people would feel comfortable leaving a female child under the age of nine alone with someone like MR? To believe that he was duped, or that truthfulness from his accomplice is required, does one also believe that a young female child would be safe in his care? Personally, I think there is plenty of evidence, excluding his accomplice, that points to his guilt. His accomplice can tell as many lies as she wants and his lawyer can obfuscate the truth all he wants, but MR still doesn't look duped or innocent to me.
    I don't think anyone is saying that TM would have left VS with either TLM or MR.................but that TLS abducted VS without MR's knowledge and told him she was babysitting for TM.

    Given they all sort of knew each other, MR might not have thought it that unusual.

    It all remains to be seen though.

    I will be very interested to see if the beginning of the defense case heads towards that theory..........or abandons it completely.

    That may say a lot for me.............

    JMO..............

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  25. #738
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardy View Post
    I would add to my own post above..........

    Think about TLM...........

    She has manipulated counselors, probation officers, social workers, he mother, everyone around her for half of her life.

    She manipulated LE and the Crown with her false statement.

    She manipulated the family of VS with her statements at her sentencing.

    Think about what her own lawyer said...................

    They discussed the crime together for months. They wept together. TLM poured out her heart........................

    And when her lawyer wasn't there.......she said she had no regrets and would gladly do it again.

    TLM is a person who can never be rehabilitated. She was already in her mind set long before she met MR.

    Her assertion that MR had this power over her and she could do nothing about it............is laughable.

    The evidence is that she was the one who did the controlling in her life, not the one being controlled.

    If controlling TLM was that easy, she wouldn't have spent half her life in jail.

    Consider the evidence, wherever it leads, but don't take TLM's word for anything.JMO................
    Except for when she admits that she kills VS right? Then it is written in stone right?
    I agree she was not manipulated. I believe she was an equal participant in a horrendous crime. They are both responsible for the death of a child. No matter how you slice it he was involved in some way shape or form. I hope they send him to the Haven and put him in with gen pop. Then he will really know what it is to feel terrified just like VS.
    Sympathy is prejudice disguised as pity.

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  27. #739
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    I think a couple of mentally defective 18 and 28 year old lunatics might think that a 8 year witnessing a drug deal would present problems for them.
    MR went into his friends home to buy the oxys.........VS stayed in the car.

    JMO.........

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  29. #740
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hello_Kitty View Post
    If MTR was somewhere else completely while TLM was killing Tori, wouldn't Derstine have to prove this?
    He does not have to prove MTR innocent because by our legal system he's already presumed innocent. He just has to create enough spin and confusion in the minds of the jury to raise reasonable doubt as to MTR's guilt. Like it or not, that's the system we're stuck with. The Crown has to work very hard to produce a guilty verdict.

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  31. #741
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    Originally Posted by Ardy

    Consider the evidence, wherever it leads, but don't take TLM's word for anything.JMO................

    BBM and snipped. Sorry counldn't find the original post so piggybacked off Allison's post.


    If I didn't take TLM's word for anything then I couldn't take her word that she killed Tori or that she was the one that stomped and kicked her. Personally, I do believe that she killed TS, but I also believe that MTR helped. Both sides of the hammer was used. I would think it strange that she stopped in mid-kill to change which side of the hammer she was using. I would think it less strange if there had been more than the number of strikes the pathologist testitied to.
    Though I fall, I fall like a star, streaming splendour through the sky.
    Justice has not failed Victoria... Rest in peace Angel.

    Princess on Earth, Angel in Heaven


    “If two points are destined to touch, the universe will always find a way to make the connection. Even when all hope seems lost, certain ties cannot be broken. They define who we are — and who we can become. Across space, across time, even across paths we cannot predict.” -Touch

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  33. #742
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayFriend View Post
    He does not have to prove MTR innocent because by our legal system he's already presumed innocent. He just has to create enough spin and confusion in the minds of the jury to raise reasonable doubt as to MTR's guilt. Like it or not, that's the system we're stuck with. The Crown has to work very hard to produce a guilty verdict.
    Ok I probably formed my question wrong because that wasn't the answer I was expecting. I know he doesn't have to prove his innocence. Anyway... nvm, I'll figure it out
    Though I fall, I fall like a star, streaming splendour through the sky.
    Justice has not failed Victoria... Rest in peace Angel.

    Princess on Earth, Angel in Heaven


    “If two points are destined to touch, the universe will always find a way to make the connection. Even when all hope seems lost, certain ties cannot be broken. They define who we are — and who we can become. Across space, across time, even across paths we cannot predict.” -Touch

  34. #743
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    BBM: Funny thing is Otto, even Rafferty's Defense has admitted his guilt. He admitted MTR "cleaned up" Victoria's remains (because he had to, just look at all the physical evidence).

    So, Derstine is not even attempting to claim innocence for his client.

    JMO
    IMO, he never admitted it, he suggested it as another theory. He also suggested that Rafferty was horrified by what TLM had done. Interesting that people don't take that as fact, yet they take the part about him helping to clean up as fact. JMO.
    Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends.
    - J.R.R. Tolkien

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  36. #744
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobodyzgirl View Post
    IMO, he never admitted it, he suggested it as another theory. He also suggested that Rafferty was horrified by what TLM had done. Interesting that people don't take that as fact, yet they take the part about him helping to clean up as fact. JMO.
    If he was that horrified, why did he help clean up the crime scen or just continue on with his life as if nothing happened. Why did he put that family through hell maybe never knowing if their little girl would ever be found. Ps why would defense suggest that if it wasn't true? Defense could have said he wasn't there at all.
    Though I fall, I fall like a star, streaming splendour through the sky.
    Justice has not failed Victoria... Rest in peace Angel.

    Princess on Earth, Angel in Heaven


    “If two points are destined to touch, the universe will always find a way to make the connection. Even when all hope seems lost, certain ties cannot be broken. They define who we are — and who we can become. Across space, across time, even across paths we cannot predict.” -Touch

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  38. #745
    Quote Originally Posted by nobodyzgirl View Post
    IMO, he never admitted it, he suggested it as another theory. He also suggested that Rafferty was horrified by what TLM had done. Interesting that people don't take that as fact, yet they take the part about him helping to clean up as fact. JMO.


    JMO

    "one can't see the forest for the trees" comes to mind...whatever fits...just saying... JMO hopefully all will be revealed down the road...I have nothing invested in this so whatever the decision of the courts...well so be it...JMO

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  40. #746
    Quote Originally Posted by Hello_Kitty View Post
    If he was that horrified, why did he help clean up the crime scen or just continue on with his life as if nothing happened. Why did he put that family through hell maybe never knowing if their little girl would ever be found. Ps why would defense suggest that if it wasn't true? Defense could have said he wasn't there at all.


    JMO don't think the defence is going to state at the start that their client was not there..that would be very foolish IMO ...maybe in his summary but never at the start....

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  42. #747
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macright View Post
    Well I have already answered that question a few pages back. ....can't imagine anyone even suggesting that he is totally innocent of all charges...but I can understand why some, me included are undecided about some of the charges.. JMO..also I would hate to see someone convicted of a 1st degree murder charge when in this instance someone other than the current accused has testified that it was in fact SHE who did the deed... I think the crown would have to have more proof than they have shown to get him on a 1st degree murder charge but hey one never knows...the law works in mysterious ways...or so they say....JMO
    Why would he get less than 1st degree murder? He deserves to get first degree murder. He was the driver, he participated in the kidnapping, he paid for a drove tlm to home depot to buy the murder weapon, he chose the area to kill her, he raped her and then helped clean up the body. He also didn't tell a sole where her body was because he knew he would have been charged. So he destroyed evidence and lied.

    He deserves 1 st degree murder even if he didn't kill tori.

    He <modsnip> needs to spend the rest of his life in prison.
    Last edited by Salem; 04-24-2012 at 11:42 PM. Reason: Easy on the name calling please.
    May you rest in peace.....Tori Stafford

    Missing but never forgotten Nicole Louise Morin last seen July 30th 1985

    http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32372

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  44. #748
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    SmoothOperator is offline Sadly what connects all these puzzles is that there's a victim@the heart of each
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    The means to an end and what 2 very different "means" led to the same tragic "end"..

    My take on the two beings that committed the heinous brutal acts of abducting, torturing, raping, savagely murdering, concealing her precious little body, disposing of the most obvious evidence btwn the two, and then going about their merry lives conspiring of how to lie and deceive authorities upon their ever being questioned about the numerous brutal crimes they'd both committed.. My take on these two has always been this..

    Each of these individuals alone were of no good IMO.. Each of them alone were of evil intentions throughout their lives.. Each of them were committing criminal acts and behaviors on a daily basis and had been for years.. Each of them were liars with no moral fiber, nor even attempts at bettering themselves.. Each of them were satisfied living their lives in the seedier side of life fueled with drugs, sex, lies, and criminal acts came naturally for them both.. Each IMO had no issue whatsoever with committing various criminal acts with zero regard for other human beings who happened to be negatively impacted or even hurt by their choices that they made.. Each had little self worth and filled that vacant hole with drugs, sex, and engaging in a dangerous lifestyle that again included criminal behaviors and actions.. Each of these individual alone IMO had no issue morally of taking a human life if it served as a means to an end for them.. And tho the "end" result would be the same in that a life was taken however the "means" for which they felt it necessary to have taken the life could not have been more different from the other..

    For example TLM was needy of acceptance and that primarily throughout her young life equaled "street" acceptance.. Street acceptance is earned through your ability to be ruthless and brutal.. Lie, steal, cheat, beat people to a pulp, and even kill if necessary to prove your "hard" or "tough".. IMO these were the type "means" that would have led TLM to taking a life as the "end" result of her proving her toughness..

    This could not be any more opposite of the spectrum of difference from what IMO MR's "means" would be that he find it necessary that taking a life would be the "end" to that means.. Whereas TLM's motive behind both the means and the end was essentially based of nothing but a desperate need for acceptance.. Desperate need for love.. Thus why you see her means that would lead her to have taken a human life was essentially completely based on a desperate need to be loved.. MR's IMO is nothing remotely similar or near to what TLMs "means" were.. IMO MR's means were not based upon proving himself worthy of being loved and accepted by another as TLM's were.. No, MR's "means" are as self satisfying and evil as they come IMO.. His means were that for nothing but his own sick self serving pleasure of sexually and deviancy satisfying from a young, helpless, defenseless, 110+% vulnerable small child.. This entirely self consumed "means" is what would lead to a human life being taken as an "ends" to that mean.. Again for nothing but self consummation in his having to take the life for self preservation..

    So, while I absolutely believe that both of these two individuals alone were absolutely more than capable of having to take a human life as the end to their means.. But what it is that is each of their "means" is what sets them apart in terms of seeing for which is based out of purely evil..

    IMOO that could not be more crystal clear as to whose core is an all consuming darkness and evil of which is likened to looking into the soul of the devil himself.. And to whose core sadly lead them to the same "end" in taking a human life but when studied as to what's behind the eyes and into the deepest parts of ones soul IMO it becomes apparent that one was based sadly out of a desperation for love and acceptance.. IMO that makes her no less guilty, culpable, and morally and legally wrong.. But what it tells me is this..

    TLM an alone individual trudging thru her dark and vacant life would have never alone found an "end" to any "means" be the taking of Victoria Stafford's life.. This is moo..

    However, It is equally moo that MR would have absolutely found the end to his means to be the taking of Victiria Stafford's life or any other defenseless child that sadly had the misfortune of being a victim of MR's "means" which again his "means" were the self serving deviant and sexual satisfaction that he derived from preying on, overpowering and sexually using the body of any small defenseless child that became available to him..

    There are very very very different motivators that lead each of these to killing Tori.. They both are totally responsible for her murder.. But where the divide for me lies is that IMO one of them alone and without the other IMO would not have taken the life of a defenseless small child(and brutally abused and raped and ravaged the childs body) before actually savagely killing the child.. While IMO the other of the two individuals ABSOLUTELY WITHOUT QUESTION IMO would have brutally and savagely raped tortured and killed Tori Stafford or any other child that was available to him.. And IMO if/when he were to walk freely the face of this earth IMO he very likely will do so again..

    That has no difference for me as far as they're both absolutely guilty as hell on all charges IMO.. But rather the division is much farther down where the great divide begins the difference between these two beings involved in killing Tori.. Jmo, tho!!


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  46. #749
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macright View Post
    respectfully do you think an eight year old child would know about oxy's...JMO
    Anyone buying a baggie of illegally obtained drugs would not be dangling them about going from the house to his car parked on the road. He would put them in his pocket and probably keep them there. There wouldn't even be a need for him to talk about it with TLM, as she knew all along what they were there for. She did ask him for some and he refused. He may even have transferred the bag into his glove compartment, but I doubt he'd trust TLM not to take some, so IMO he either kept them in his pocket, or stashed them under his seat. There was no reason whatsoever for Tori to know what he had or how many of them. Nobody would choose to murder a child instead of risk getting busted for a few pills.

    JMHO
    Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feeling for the strength of their argument. - William E. Gladstone

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hello_Kitty View Post
    If I didn't take TLM's word for anything then I couldn't take her word that she killed Tori or that she was the one that stomped and kicked her. Personally, I do believe that she killed TS, but I also believe that MTR helped. Both sides of the hammer was used. I would think it strange that she stopped in mid-kill to change which side of the hammer she was using. I would think it less strange if there had been more than the number of strikes the pathologist testitied to.
    (RSBM)

    She didn't have to stop. I believe that both sides of the hammer were used because TLM swung that tool in both directions - frantically swinging her arm in a wide arc from left to right and then back again from right to left, etc. during her drug-fueled rage.

    JMO
    Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feeling for the strength of their argument. - William E. Gladstone

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