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Thread: AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #5

  1. #351
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    It's possible that if someone did come in and took Isa, they made her walk. They didn't necessarily have to carry her out of the house.

    Look at Elizabeth Smart and Jessica Lunsford.

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  3. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by dimples37398 View Post
    After watching the dad going to court today, I am really really on the fence and falling over into the parents or one of the parents know something. I know not everyone reacts the same way...and I know I won't be very popular for stating this opinion but....

    It is hard for me to understand why he didn't even glance, acknowledge, the camera men. He walked as fast as he could to get past them, didn't look up or make eye contact at all, didnt stop for a moment and beg for info, didn't greet them, didn't use those seconds to say anything to people watching. It seemed like he was almost speed walking to get past them.

    I know people will say well maybe he was running late, honestly I could give a !%&# less about anyone or anything but getting my child back, so I would stop and take all the time I felt I needed to beg for any info about her location, if I got a fine for being late then so be it.
    I come here to hear the unpopular beliefs anyway, not interested in an echo chamber. He may have been told by attorney or LEO not to talk to media but who knows, it is strange that he acted that way.
    EVERYTHING ABOVE is RUMOR, opinion, speculation, possibilities, potentialities, hunch, guesswork, crapshoot, gut feeling, suggestions, buzz, dish, gossip, hearsay, noise, scuttlebutt, rumblings, musings and whispers and SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN AS FACT unless otherwise noted.


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  5. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by LisaB View Post
    Based on what data? I do drafting (AutoCAD) for a living. I started off doing land planning jobs, but for the last couple years I have been doing architectural work, office buildings mainly. I could draw what you need if I have an idea of what the layout IS, but if we had that, I guess we would not need anyone to draw it!
    The only thing we all have been working with is the view of the home via "google street map", of which, you have to scroll here, there and everywhere to get an idea of the area and the house.

    It becomes difficult trying to explain things through a snap-shots and trying to piece the actual view of the home, if that makes any sense.
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  7. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrayedKnot View Post
    So what is still confusing me and quite frankly, annoying the living carp out of me is.....WHY can we not get a definitive answer as to exactly what time Rebecca arrived at work and what time her shift was SCHEDULED to start.

    Same with whether Isa was in school Friday?

    This is hardly privileged info, you wouldn't think, and although LE surely knows these facts, I cannot imagine it would jeopardize the investigation by giving that info to the public.

    But what do I know with my zero time in LE? Hee hee


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    I agree!
    The whole school could have the info. Regarding Isa... And the whole hospital could potentially have the info. Regarding mom.

    Therefore, this is hardly secret facts to the case...
    Even tho it is secret to US right now!

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  9. #355
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    On Vinnie: Natisha, producer of NG show talks about what the neighbor said, and shows us the family yard.

    According to Natisha, the Celis family dogs WERE OUTSIDE at 6:30 when the neighbor heard the voices and the dogs barking. So imo, there is no way they took the child with the dogs outside barking at them.

    I think the 6:30 ruckus is a red herring. I think she was taken in the middle of the night, in the dark.
    ďEvery day that they donít find something is good for me.ď Billie Dunn

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  11. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knox View Post


    Another viewpoint-
    The picture above is Isa's bedroom window. I am watching Prime News and this is the Isa's window with the neighbor's bedroom window on the opposite side of Isabel's window.
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  13. #357
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    Since stranger abductions are rare, and rarer still stranger abduction from the home, there has to be suspicion on the parents...if only to rule them out. Their press conference didn't do it. The dad was definitely distraught and the mother was...not as much. Do they know/suspect who took her? Were they involved? Are they not in agreement to what might have happened? Many unanswered questions and not all the info is out yet.

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  15. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by dimples37398 View Post
    After watching the dad going to court today, I am really really on the fence and falling over into the parents or one of the parents know something. I know not everyone reacts the same way...and I know I won't be very popular for stating this opinion but....

    It is hard for me to understand why he didn't even glance, acknowledge, the camera men. He walked as fast as he could to get past them, didn't look up or make eye contact at all, didnt stop for a moment and beg for info, didn't greet them, didn't use those seconds to say anything to people watching. It seemed like he was almost speed walking to get past them.

    I know people will say well maybe he was running late, honestly I could give a !%&# less about anyone or anything but getting my child back, so I would stop and take all the time I felt I needed to beg for any info about her location, if I got a fine for being late then so be it.
    My feeling is the parents are not involved. But I will admit to having the same feeling as you. I guess people handle things differently. I imagine myself either hospitalized or pleading outside my home every day, to the cameras.

    But we don't know what the FBI may have told them about being careful what they say, so as not to spur certain things from the suspect, or whatever.

    I don't blame those who are on the fence or suspicious of the parents. We know little and stats bear out parental involvement. It's not my feeling but like PAXIMUS said, websleuths is not about an echo chamber. We discuss and digest. And sometimes that leads us to the the truth.
    For Travis Alexander, a human being. Justice will prevail.


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  17. #359
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    Vinnie Politan just had their neighbor on who said her dog was going nuts abnormally at 6:30 a.m. the morning of the disappearance and heard men's voices, which also was abnormal. It would have been light out, and Mom would still have been home. Sure seems like a strange time to abduct a child.

    The no tears crying at the parents' statement yesterday has me suspicious they at least know something, sorry. I always look for tears when people are crying like they were. I saw none in either parent's eyes or on their cheeks. Absent of more evidence, hard to point the finger at them directly, but the odds favor a family member as the perp.

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  19. #360
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    The neighbor's house and the Celis' house are really close.
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  21. #361
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    On Fox news today they said only 150 missing children a year our taken by strangers and of those only 15 abducted from their homes! We know of case's were children have been taken right out of their homes...but it is very rare! So of course they will look at the parents, because stats don't lie! Having said that, they maybe one of the unlucky 15!
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
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  23. #362
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    I don't understand why like in some other cases, the police here can't just come out and say, the parents have been cleared (Lets move on).
    Always keep your words soft and sweet, just in case you have to eat them.

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  25. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by noneareworthy View Post
    Their press conference didn't do it. The dad was definitely distraught and the mother was...not as much.
    Really breaking down the family reaction is a matter of opinion, tbh.

    I saw the mom as MORE upset than dad - but that's what I saw.

    I think LE isn't ruling anyone out, especially the parents, in the hopes that whomever took Isa puts their guard down cause THEY aren't on the radar (or so they might think).

    HOPE that makes sense!
    "What the thinker thinks, the Prover proves". - Robert Anton Wilson

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  27. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by katydid23 View Post
    On Vinnie: Natisha, producer of NG show talks about what the neighbor said, and shows us the family yard.

    According to Natisha, the Celis family dogs WERE OUTSIDE at 6:30 when the neighbor heard the voices and the dogs barking. So imo, there is no way they took the child with the dogs outside barking at them.

    I think the 6:30 ruckus is a red herring. I think she was taken in the middle of the night, in the dark.
    I think the neighbor is mistaken about the time. I think it's entirely possible that she did wake up for some reason at 6:30, fell back asleep and heard the voices around 8 ish, thinking she just barely fell back asleeep. She says, according to Natisha, that the voices were on HER side of the wall, not the Celis'. I find it difficult to believe that kidnappers are going to hoist a 6 yo over a 6 ft wall when they can go out a gate or a shorter area of the fence. And they are going to hang around long enough to have a conversation.

    I believe she did hear stuff, but what I believe she heard was possibly police and family approaching her house or someone looking in the backyard for Isa.

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  29. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Stone Unturned View Post
    I admit that I was staunchly in the camp of non-parental abduction at the beginning. After watching the tape of their statement over and over, I'm on the fence.

    It's unpopular up here though.

    Yup. Me too. Can't put my finger on it but that PC really gave me an odd vibe, sorta like maybe they really are distressed but not for the reasons we suppose. Like an accident that got covered up?

    IDK. All speculation and trying to figure out where my sudden hinky feeling came from. MOO.

    All I know is I was quite certain yesterday that the parents had no part in this at all. Now I'm fence sitting.


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  31. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leomoon80 View Post
    How on earth did someone get up the stuccoed house, 6 foot high window without standing on something, if they aren't "Spider Man?"

    Did anyone notice the tiny two windows on the side of the house? Are they the bedroom windows for Isabel's room?

    I don't think that window is 6 foot high. The tiny square windows on the house are "accent" windows. I have them in my house, in the dining room. They are quite common here, they don't open but allow more light into the home.

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  33. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by katydid23 View Post
    On Vinnie: Natisha, producer of NG show talks about what the neighbor said, and shows us the family yard.

    According to Natisha, the Celis family dogs WERE OUTSIDE at 6:30 when the neighbor heard the voices and the dogs barking. So imo, there is no way they took the child with the dogs outside barking at them.

    I think the 6:30 ruckus is a red herring. I think she was taken in the middle of the night, in the dark.

    ITA, it would make no sense to take her in the daylight hours when neighbors are likely to be awake and outside.

    I'm battling with thoughts after reading a few things out there on the net (can't link to them here). I always struggle with the thought a parent could or would do something to harm their own child.

    The family seems to be loving and very proud (Mom's FB Posts) of their children. Could this have been an unintentional act which in panic mode was covered up? Isa was having problems sleeping that night and she was given too much medicine. Both parents are in the medical field, that would not bode well for their careers (or at least Mom's).

    I can't imagine being the parent of a missing child and being falsely accused of having done something to them, so I feel guilty even expressing this right now. There are no facts to support my thoughts
    You are the anchor to my soul, you won't let go ...

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  35. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by LisaB View Post
    Based on what data? I do drafting (AutoCAD) for a living. I started off doing land planning jobs, but for the last couple years I have been doing architectural work, office buildings mainly. I could draw what you need if I have an idea of what the layout IS, but if we had that, I guess we would not need anyone to draw it!
    I thought I did see a layout of the house on one of the threads. But we need that in relation to the streets, alley and the other homes nearby.
    For Travis Alexander, a human being. Justice will prevail.


    *Gitana (means "Gypsy girl"). Pronounced "hee tah nah."

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  37. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taminator View Post
    I think the neighbor is mistaken about the time. I think it's entirely possible that she did wake up for some reason at 6:30, fell back asleep and heard the voices around 8 ish, thinking she just barely fell back asleeep. She says, according to Natisha, that the voices were on HER side of the wall, not the Celis'. I find it difficult to believe that kidnappers are going to hoist a 6 yo over a 6 ft wall when they can go out a gate or a shorter area of the fence. And they are going to hang around long enough to have a conversation.

    I believe she did hear stuff, but what I believe she heard was possibly police and family approaching her house or someone looking in the backyard for Isa.
    Prime News with Natisha Lane indicated that at 8:00 AM, there was a knock on the neighbor's door asking if she saw Isa. So I tend to think the neighbor heard the noises at 6:30.
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  39. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by PAXIMUS View Post
    I never blame parents in cases like this until I see some pretty hard evidence. That said, I am finding increasingly difficult to believe someone took that little girl out of her bed without alerting anyone, especially if it was through a window, she was 4 feet tall and 50 pounds, that isnt a small kid to be carrying through a window. Granted we do not know they entered/exited through a window so I will remain in the fence but from what we know right now I am just having a hard time believing this was a random abduction and that has nothing to do with what the parents said or looked like, it is based on the fact that abductions like that are extremely rare.


    One thing I have learned over the years following crime is that things are always way weirder than I first assumed. On the other hand, if you take bits and pieces of a family and dont know them or the whole story, every family you look at would appear to be strange and dysfunctional including all of us. You really need the whole picture to draw any accurate conclusions about a person or family.
    I have blamed parents in the past if I find them suspicious. I think Billie Dunn is a very suspicious mother who has a missing child.

    But if I dont have any suspicions whatsoever about the parents, then I will support them all the way, even if others decide they dont want to do so.

    I did it for Steve Greone and Mark Lunsford and felt completely comfortable in my decision. I never waivered from it either and my opinion was formed very early on when I first saw them speak out for the first time.

    I support these two parents totally. Nothing they have done or said makes me feel any differently. I think they are both shattered and their lives will never be the same. They have lost their precious little daughter whom I feel they love beyond words.

    As far as how the predator got Isa out of the home is unknown at this time. Just because the window may have been the point of entry doesnt mean they had to exit that way. Children have been taken from a home where the pedophile gained entrance via an open window. I read a case where a child went missing and this is how he took her away by crawling in her bedroom window. They found her blocks away from her home where he had raped her and left her there. Iirc, she was older than Isa. Elizabeth Smarts predator gained access to her home through an open window but took her out a door.

    The window to Isa's bedroom is plenty large and low enough to the ground to go out that way with her but nothing says that is how they left.

    Children older than Isa have been stolen from their own beds when adults were present in the home, and none of them heard a thing and yes, some of them had dogs too. The problem with dogs barking is people tend to tune them out if they are known to bark a lot just like the neighbor in this case did and turned back over and went back to sleep.

    IMO, there is absolutely nothing that shows either of these parents are involved in Isa's disappearance.

    I know that this particular LE uses the phrase 'everyone is a POI' which frankly is quite absurd imo because arent you a local from that area? Have they been to your house or your neighbors or to every home in your town? I highly doubt they have included you or other local posters in the POI equation. So its just a game this police is playing because they dont have a clue who took Isa from her bed that night, imo.

    IMO
    "Pardon Our Noise, It's the Sound of Freedom" USMC New River Air Station, Jacksonville, North Carolina

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  41. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by BetteDavisEyes View Post
    If my child were missing, I wouldn't give a da*n about a pet citation.

    I know what you mean.

    However, it was three dogs without proof of vaccinations and license, so it was something closer to 9 citations. They take dogs at large pretty seriously there. In Pima County, dogs at large means hefty fines and possible jail time, possibly both. Add to that no paperwork, and the fines are large.

    http://library.municode.com/index.aspx?clientId=16119

    A.

    The owner of a dog or canine-wild animal hybrid that is found at large upon the streets, sidewalks, alleys, or public property is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor.

    B.

    The owner of a dog or canine-wild animal hybrid that is found at large upon the premises of the owner or upon the private premises of any other person is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor.


    Penalty. A violation of any provision of this section is punishable by a fine of not less than one hundred dollars nor more than seven hundred fifty dollars, four months in jail, two years' probation, or any combination thereof. No judge may grant probation in lieu of, or otherwise suspend, the imposition of the minimum fine prescribed herein.
    Last edited by Prof; 04-26-2012 at 06:34 PM. Reason: Brevity

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  43. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by gitana1 View Post
    I thought I did see a layout of the house on one of the threads. But we need that in relation to the streets, alley and the other homes nearby.
    Google Map View
    http://maps.google.com/maps?client=f...ed=0CCMQ8gEwAA
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  45. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by LisaB View Post
    I assumed that the game ran quite late. A little girl like Isabel might have fallen asleep in the car on the way home, or even gone to the car to go to sleep before the game ended. Either way, if she was asleep when they got home, her parents may just have carried her inside and laid her on her bed. If she woke up later, she could change, but they would not want to wake her at that hour.

    This ALSO provides a window of opportunity for a predator to have entered the home while the family was out, and hidden... say in Isa's closet. If he'd been there for an hour or more, the dogs would have quieted down before the family arrived, and he just needed to pop out the screen, grab Isabel, and go. She could have been gone within 5 minutes of them putting her to bed.
    Or slipped out when mom was taking a shower in the am?
    JMO

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  47. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherbetjello View Post
    Really breaking down the family reaction is a matter of opinion, tbh.

    I saw the mom as MORE upset than dad - but that's what I saw.

    I think LE isn't ruling anyone out, especially the parents, in the hopes that whomever took Isa puts their guard down cause THEY aren't on the radar (or so they might think).

    HOPE that makes sense!
    That has been my take on it, too, and I have replayed it many times. I felt Dad's distress to be a little "off" and it totally changed me from thinking "no way did the parents have anything to do with this". Mom did not set off the same hinky rays with me.

    THAT SAID.....I honestly cannot say how I would speak or react in their position. And I desperately want to be wrong in my gut and go back to Team Innocent Parents.

    In any case, I want Isa home and safe.


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  49. #375
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    I've been lurking here for a bit, but decided to post some of my random thoughts.

    Regarding the neighbor- I tend to believe she did hear what she says she heard. I'm just not positive that she heard Isabel being taken, if that makes sense? Our neighbor's house is very close to ours and there have been times when their outside activity has woken me up- talking, car doors slamming, etc. I have never once bothered to get up and look out my window, and I don't blame this neighbor for not doing so. And I totally understand what she's saying when she says it was daylight, so she didn't think to look. If I heard the same noises that I've heard in the morning, but at night time- you bet I'd be looking out the window. Somehow daylight makes them seem...not nefarious.

    About the dogs at 6:30- I have 2 dogs. Often times when we let them out they RUN out in the yard and start barking up a storm at something we never noticed- a rabbit, a neighbor sitting on their deck, a kid walking to the bus stop. Given the time line, my theory is that the mom let the dogs out before work, and the dogs immediately knew something was up! They were barking up a storm (which maybe got the neighbor's dogs barking) because they knew something was wrong. If an intruder took Isabel, they could smell the intruder in the yard.

    That said, I don't understand how dogs that are supposedly very vocal managed to...not make a sound while Isabel was being taken. Makes me suspicious, to be honest- I realize we don't know for a fact that they didn't make a noise. I guess they could have been shut in the boys' room, or with the parents, etc. Or maybe any barking they did do was ignored because they always bark.

    I don't know. On one hand, I very much can see how the dogs barking at 6:30 was the dogs trying to alert the family that something was wrong- not saying they heard or saw anyone (though I think that's possible, still- perhaps the intruder took her to the red car?), but I can't necessarily make that work with an intruder managing to come in the house without alerting the dogs. Hmmm.

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