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Thread: AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #7

  1. #876
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    Quote Originally Posted by DollyPardonMe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by marazul View Post
    Hello, everyone. Thanks for all the great visuals. I joined WS during the Jorelys Rivera case because I am very local to that, and this case has had my attention, but I didn't want to reply until I read all the threads so I can enter caught - up.

    I have a few cents to throw in.
    I notice that in many replies, we are saying things like "I think it was someone known to the family because they knew the dogs wouldn't bark", and that, IMO, is not at all proven. For example, maybe the perp had no idea if the Celis family had dogs or not, and took the chance. Maybe everyone on that road knows the dogs bark at every passerby and passing bar patron and squirrel or cat passing every night, so they assumed one more barking episode at night wouldn't wake the family in panic. Maybe they had witnessed the dogs roaming the neighborhood and knew that even though they bark, they are stranger-friendly. I haven't heard anyone say directly, "the dogs always bark at noise at night and this night there was zero barking." we just don't know.

    The uncle is not hinky to me. Does he seem a little Kato-like, sporty, maybe immature? Umm yes. But he also seems well socialized, friends of both sexes (per fb), laid back, not apparently into creepy stuff (Shawn Adkins type)..sometimes the goofy, fun uncle really is just the goofy fun uncle. Also, the family does not seem the type to allow unsavory characters too close, they seem responsible with their careers, they seem like involved parents, not likely to let the man stay so close if they didn't trust him, and I have seen no reason to doubt their judgement. On IS vs. WAS, IMO if someone says, for example, "she was always playing, friendly to everyone..." vs. "is always playing..."that doesn't mean they didn't say IS because now she's dead, it means they didn't say IS because now she's missing or kidnapped or GONE.

    Last quick thing.. As a bluish eyed, medium brown haired Cuban American, I get mistaken for "gringa" all day, every day. Highly annoying. Latinos come in all colors, from the lightest person you can imagine, to the darkest. Latinos are mistaken for caucasian and African American all the time. We don't know his race, and with multiple marriages, step families, etc, a last name doesn't give it away.if you separate his last name into 2, you get a Hispanic last name, anyways. There are so many interracial families that I automatically get defensive when there is an feeling of someone "not belonging" to a family because his or her skin doesn't match.

    In these cases, we root for the parents, we want them cleared, at the same time, if it was an inside job, we will feel just a little safer knowing that it wasn't a random window kidnapper...I just don't see any kind of good ending but miracles happen.
    Hi marazul and welcome!
    BBM This is a little O/T but I read it in so many of the threads when there are Hispanics that I feel I have to get one thing straight. Latinos ARE Caucasian! I am Spanish/American on fathers side and Mexican/American on my mothers side and my birth certificate says "white". In the later 50's they changed the birth certificates to read Caucasian. Sorry, but like you I get highly defensive too.
    Latinos are not necessarily Caucasian. Most Latinos from Mexico are indigenous/European mix, not straight Caucasian. Some are black, etc. Latinos comes in all colors! That's why there is a box to check for "non-white Hispanic" on many forms.

    Quote Originally Posted by FrayedKnot View Post
    There are plenty of cases where the parents called 911 to report a missing child who, as it turns out was harmed and killed (or presumed killed) by those same parents.

    Shaniya? Zahra? Jhessye? Aliyah? Ethan? Ayla? Baby Lisa?

    I didn't say that Isa likely died as a result of a simple accident. I said that likely her death may have occurred accidentally during some type of abuse (like I said before felony homicide) which is why the family would have staged a kidnapping scenario.

    Just like quite a few of these other cases. And seeing as how this sort of thing seems to happening more and more, I think it is EXTREMELY possible and probable. More likely than a drug kidnapping or child trafficking or unknown intruder.

    Of course this is only MOO as far as Isa's case, but to say that such a thing has never happened ever is factually wrong.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Right. There are many more cases where a child dies from abuse, not intentionally murdered, but homicide due to abuse, and they cover it up with a "kidnapping." I'm thinking that is the case with many of our missing kids who have not been found yet, like Hailey Dunn, Baby Lisa, Haleigh Cummings, Ayla Reynolds, Aliayah Lunsford, etc.

    It is a viable theory in such a case at this. But, like Oceanblueeyes, I don't feel the parents in this case fit the pattern at all. Usually the type that abuse their kids to death and try to cover it up are younger parents, or often step parents or new, blended families with new boyfriends/girlfriends in the picture, and usually the families have a much lower economic status and often a criminal history involving drugs.

    But, it makes sense to look at the possibility of that angle.

    Quote Originally Posted by eileenhawkeye View Post
    But The UK also their share of sensational high-profile cases. From what I'm reading, these cases got massive coverage over there, so it's safe to say that MSM was reporting on them too. Maddie McCann, James Bulger, Rosie Palmer, Holly Wells, Jessica Chapman, Leanne Tiernan, Kelly Anne Bates, Suzanne Capper, Victoria Climbie, Milly Dowler, Danielle Jones, Rhys Jones, Ben Kinsella, Sarah Payne, Tia Rigg, Hannah Williams. What's the difference between those cases and "our" high-profile cases? I'm reading the circumstances of the cases I referenced here, and it's hard for me to think that there wasn't sensationalism in the reporting, or the reason why the cases made the news.
    The UK is much more similar statistically to the US than the rest of Western Europe when it comes to sex crimes/crimes against children.

    Quote Originally Posted by gliving View Post
    The father and son entering the home is very odd. Were they there to offer help? The videos says the son was tensely interviewed by LE. Then he and his dad show up at the Celis home and go right in the courtyard. It's almost like they wanted a reason for their fingerprints and scent to be there. Was this before or after the search dogs worked the home? I wonder if the Celis' have had trouble with this kid before? Why would LE intensely interview him similar to the way they interviewed the RSO neighbor.

    Or maybe the kid saw something that night, or knows a pervy kid, and wanted to make sure the Celis family knew about it. That almost makes more sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by dimples37398 View Post
    Did you guys see this video of the neighbor who I think it says was questioned extensively and then are seen going in and out of the celis courtyard. It is about 1:40 in the video.

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-tuc...0#.T52K_9nh58E
    It really irritated me. Watch again how they just hang on that door handle like they have a right to be there, even while the police are talking to them. And, didn't I hear that they went over there AFTER being tensely questioned? Or, am I wrong about that. One would think that a man and his teenaged son would be the last people to want to be seen lurking around the house where a baby girl has gone missing. Who are they and what right did they think they had to be there?
    For Travis Alexander, a human being. Justice will prevail.


    *Gitana (means "Gypsy girl"). Pronounced "hee tah nah."


  2. #877
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    Quote Originally Posted by ehough22 View Post
    I also think, when it comes to accidental death, there are two "types"....one is a legitimate accident- she fell and hit her head, got hit with a baseball, drowned, etc. In that case it is, I agree, hard to discern why a parent would cover that up (looking at you, Casey).

    The other type of accident is an accident that occurred in the course of abuse - sexual or physical. Quite different, imo. While I don't mean to imply we have any reason to suspect Isa was being abused, I don't think it is that far fetched to speculate that someone (not necessarily a parent) accidentally killed her during the course of abuse and rather than admit to accidental death AND abuse, staged a cover up. I'm not saying that's my theory, but that's more what I think of when it comes to an accidental death theory.
    Thank you. This is what I have been trying to say.

    And this is ALL total speculation anyway, but I wasn't referring to an honest to God accidental death, but one under circumstances that would mean scrutiny and worse for the family.

    Like leaving her at the park or giving her too much medicine or yes, actual physical abuse.

    I fail to see how this theory is non-sensical but Isa being kidnapped by an evil drug cartel seems more plausible.

    Especially since none of us actually KNOWS what happened, anything is possible.

    I was just listing various possibilities and pondering their likelihood.


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  4. #878
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boodles View Post
    None of us have many facts, but remember Fabian Pacheco's comment that things are not always as they appear. There could be troubles within the family. We just don't know.
    This is another thing to consider-we know virtually nothing about the family dynamic so all we can do is to speculate on what might be.

    Some posters say they got a really sincere vibe from the parents at the pc, while others jumped the fence after hearing and seeing them speak.

    But we just don't know enough to say they do or do not fit any profile.


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  6. #879
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    Quote Originally Posted by gliving View Post
    The father and son entering the home is very odd. Were they there to offer help? The videos says the son was tensely interviewed by LE. Then he and his dad show up at the Celis home and go right in the courtyard. It's almost like they wanted a reason for their fingerprints and scent to be there. Was this before or after the search dogs worked the home? I wonder if the Celis' have had trouble with this kid before? Why would LE intensely interview him similar to the way they interviewed the RSO neighbor.

    Or maybe the kid saw something that night, or knows a pervy kid, and wanted to make sure the Celis family knew about it. That almost makes more sense.
    I looked at this video again. And again. Something seems...off kilter about the kid who went over to the house with his father.. Have no idea why I feel this,but I do.

    Also, the narrator on the video mentions that the Celis family was not there when they went over.

    Something not right with this...MOO

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    Will have to look at the video again for the answer about the tree...

    As for the Office Max dumpster, the tree is pretty much directly opposite the trash bin...so yea, it could have been the tape that was used to rope off the area from the beginning...

    I did not SEE any cameras but in the little parking area between Office Max and old Circuit City there are warnings posted that there are surveillance cameras. This parking area does not have access to the main parking area, there is a curb between it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof View Post
    I wish I could find Friday's presser where LE stated that they were only trying to identify the five, and anyone else in the video is already known. I was lead to believe that the man behind the wall was already known to LE. Seriously, we can assume they have had that video all week.
    It was my understanding as well that his presence in the video was already known to LE, however there was no elaboration on his identification or whether or not LE was interested in him.

    MOO
    Rest in Peace
    Joey, Summer, Gianni & Joseph Mateo


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    Quote Originally Posted by liz b. View Post
    I looked at this video again. And again. Something seems...off kilter about the kid who went over to the house with his father.. Have no idea why I feel this,but I do.

    Also, the narrator on the video mentions that the Celis family was not there when they went over.

    Something not right with this...MOO
    With good or bad intentions, they appear desperate to make contact the family.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dimples37398 View Post
    Did you guys see this video of the neighbor who I think it says was questioned extensively and then are seen going in and out of the celis courtyard. It is about 1:40 in the video.

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-tuc...0#.T52K_9nh58E
    I'm thinking that the neighbors (father and son) might be going to the house to feed the dog(s).
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  16. #884
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    I am not real sure about it being the exact tree, hard to tell from the angle. There are a number of trees spaced along the wall there so not sure

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    Quote Originally Posted by gitana1 View Post
    Latinos are not necessarily Caucasian. Most Latinos from Mexico are indigenous/European mix, not straight Caucasian. Some are black, etc. Latinos comes in all colors! That's why there is a box to check for "non-white Hispanic" on many forms.



    Right. There are many more cases where a child dies from abuse, not intentionally murdered, but homicide due to abuse, and they cover it up with a "kidnapping." I'm thinking that is the case with many of our missing kids who have not been found yet, like Hailey Dunn, Baby Lisa, Haleigh Cummings, Ayla Reynolds, Aliayah Lunsford, etc.

    It is a viable theory in such a case at this. But, like Oceanblueeyes, I don't feel the parents in this case fit the pattern at all. Usually the type that abuse their kids to death and try to cover it up are younger parents, or often step parents or new, blended families with new boyfriends/girlfriends in the picture, and usually the families have a much lower economic status and often a criminal history involving drugs.

    But, it makes sense to look at the possibility of that angle.



    The UK is much more similar statistically to the US than the rest of Western Europe when it comes to sex crimes/crimes against children.





    It really irritated me. Watch again how they just hang on that door handle like they have a right to be there, even while the police are talking to them. And, didn't I hear that they went over there AFTER being tensely questioned? Or, am I wrong about that. One would think that a man and his teenaged son would be the last people to want to be seen lurking around the house where a baby girl has gone missing. Who are they and what right did they think they had to be there?
    Yes, Gitana, that's it. MOO Watch the kid's face when he glances at the LEO by the door... There is an almost...territorial look on his face. MOO

    The Celis' have family on the block. Wouldn't family members feed their dogs ? MOO

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  20. #886
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    So, Galiuro, a car cannot drive behind Office Max from the main parking area, correct? A car would have to come down the service alley from Craycroft, right? There's a curb on both sides of Office Max back there? This is why the LE used it at first as a command center, they also blocked off the side street at Cooper.

    I really appreciate you taking the time to do this.
    Oh, and how high would you say that wall is?

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    Red Herrings...

    I think the five people on the video are red herrings and it'll turn out they were just twentysomethings heading home after a night at a local bar.

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  24. #888
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    Quote Originally Posted by gliving View Post
    Thanks to another website, I found LE's neighborhood canvass questionnaire. It's quite lengthy.

    http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/link/55...orhood-canvass
    Wow. Great find.

    Quote Originally Posted by marazul View Post
    I do not want to sidetrack from this topic, but yes if you are from Spain or Latino of mestizo blood, you may self identify as Caucasian, however many Latinos identify as indigenous, meaning in north/south/central America or the Caribbean before the Caucasian, meaning Spanish, Portuguese, or other Europeans came. If you self identify as Maya( not extinct like dinosaurs, that's just a media lie), Azteca, Taina, Afro Caribbean, etc, then you are Latino-Non-Caucasian. Not all Latinos are Caucasian. Most Latinos are a mix of caucasian, african, and indigenous blood. Plenty Latinos check 'other' on that form because our heritage is too diverse to fit into White (Hispanic). Personally i think this is whitewashing of minorities . There is a native american box for native north americans, but not for native south or central americans.Too off topic and irrelevant. But if it helps, I will say Latinos can be mistaken for American Caucasians of non Hispanic origin.
    You said it better than I!

    Quote Originally Posted by galiuro View Post
    I drove thru the area in back of the Office Max this morning, sorry did not have camera...it is a driveway just north of an entrance to St Joes, its a driveway wide enough for two cars and well traveled enough to have speed bumps in it. Of interest was a tree next to the wall that had yellow tap wrapped around it, looked to be police tape, as I could make out 'do not cross' on it. The tree itself is beside couple piles of bound cardboard sitting on a wood pallet on the side of the curb. So looked to me like at one time they had bound the area off for some sort of police examination/forensics...nothing else remarkable about the area, except to say that the dumpster for Office Max is up against the Office Max building, snug up to the western side, so whoever the figure is in the film, he ain't taking out the trash...
    Big important question. Is there a back door where we see the figure on the tape?

    Finally, the boy and his father. I hope Patty G is right and they were there to feed the dogs. The dad appears to resemble a skinny white neighbor that was in a media interview very early on that perked my ears up when I first saw him. Just an overeager type.

    But, it does look like a match, Patty G with the door with the dog and the gate they are going through. However, I thought that footage of the door with the dog was in reference to the neighbor's dog, since she was home at the time. I don't know. Otherwise, who was there at the Celis home at time of the ABC neighbor interview who had the door/gate open and the dog easily able to come out?
    For Travis Alexander, a human being. Justice will prevail.


    *Gitana (means "Gypsy girl"). Pronounced "hee tah nah."

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  26. #889
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    Been lurking on here for months, finally registered. Yay!!!
    I will have comments on this case when I process a bit of what I have read.

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    Quote Originally Posted by utahagen View Post
    I think the five people on the video are red herrings and it'll turn out they were just twentysomethings heading home after a night at a local bar.
    I think most of us are assuming they just want to talk to the five to see if they witnessed anything at all. It seems clear they are coming back from a night out - two guys and three gals. No one is really thinking they had anything to do with this but any tiny thing they might have seen could be important which would lift them from red herring territory.
    For Travis Alexander, a human being. Justice will prevail.


    *Gitana (means "Gypsy girl"). Pronounced "hee tah nah."

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    Quote Originally Posted by gitana1 View Post
    It really irritated me. Watch again how they just hang on that door handle like they have a right to be there, even while the police are talking to them. And, didn't I hear that they went over there AFTER being tensely questioned? Or, am I wrong about that. One would think that a man and his teenaged son would be the last people to want to be seen lurking around the house where a baby girl has gone missing. Who are they and what right did they think they had to be there?
    SBM.

    I got the impression that it wasn't Isa's door...at least it didn't seem to be so (the several narrow white-painted posts). That segment moved from place to place while talking about neighbors being interviewed.

    However, I don't think we've seen a photo of Isa's entire front porch (just the dog thru the front window).

    I could be mistaken, IDK.

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  32. #892
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    Quote Originally Posted by txjustice View Post
    Been lurking on here for months, finally registered. Yay!!!
    I will have comments on this case when I process a bit of what I have read.
    For Travis Alexander, a human being. Justice will prevail.


    *Gitana (means "Gypsy girl"). Pronounced "hee tah nah."

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    Quote Originally Posted by eileenhawkeye View Post
    It's an unsolved case, so any theory is going to be speculation. But it doesn't make sense to me that you don't believe that parents could accidentally kill their child and then cover it up, but you'll believe that an intruder would murder a child in their home, while the rest of the family slept. You posted that you can't find any cases where parents covered up the accidental death of the child, but how many cases do you know where a child was murdered in their home by an intruder?
    I can think of at least one, but I can't find it and I can't remember the name.
    It was just on the ID channel a few days ago I think? Possibly a serial killer victim?
    It was a teen girl who was murdered in her bedroom, while her parents slept and they found her body in the morning.
    Hopefully someone remembers the case because it is going to bug me now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patty G View Post
    I'm thinking that the neighbor (father and son) might be going to the house to feed the dog(s).
    I was wondering if I was missing something...
    I didn't think they would go there if they didn't belong... confronting LE in the process... and LE could stop them if they were trespassing.

    I figured that they were probably going over there because they were asked by the family to do so. (Dogs, mail, utilities, supplies...)
    I thought that the family might be a little busy looking for Isa and freaking out... to go over there and handle those things.

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  36. #894
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    If they were going to feed the dogs, and there was a police presence...wouldn't someone have informed the police of this beforehand? Or at least told them to approach the officers first before going in?

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    Quote Originally Posted by txjustice View Post
    Been lurking on here for months, finally registered. Yay!!!
    I will have comments on this case when I process a bit of what I have read.
    Welcome to Websleuths!

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  40. #896
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    Yes, that is correct, the only way a car can get back there is by driving down the wide alley between the buildings. It is pretty open for an individual on foot; it is only a sidewalk/curb keeping someone on foot from getting back there. It was a pretty good setup for the command post as they could control it fairly well.

    The height of the wall, I'm going to say maybe 5 feet? It sort of steps uphill towards the east, the corner of the wall is on higher ground than where the tree is. The whole alley in general seems lower than the parking lot of the church so that the wall on the church side seems shorter in height than it appears on the Office Max side.

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  42. #897
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    'scuse me!

    Sorry for slamming the door on your face all!

    Please move to new thread.


    fran

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7850498#post7850498"]AZ AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celiz, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #8 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

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