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Thread: AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #8

  1. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lava View Post
    Does anyone else seem to think that there is some sort of disconnect b/w LE and the parents? LE wants them to talk to the media, but they don't. LE doesn't know why they aren't back in the home (Have they asked, have they not received an explanation, or did they receive an explanation that doesn't make sense to them?), LE has still yet to clear the family. Going on the assumption that the family is innocent (which is how I like to see things until I hear otherwise), these things really bother me.

    1. Parents refusal to speak out more: Yes, we would most likely criticize everything they say, do, don't say, don't do, wear, all the way down to how many tears they cry. It is a HUGE burden to take on. However, it keeps the media interested - especially the national media. I remember when Elizabeth Smart was missing the family held daily press conferences, and I watched them every day on the national media. I've been watching CNN for hours today and haven't heard a word about Isabel. And now that the police are doing 1 presser a day it will get even worse. I see the 1 presser a day lasting a week - if that long - before there will be none. And then it is only a matter of time before Isabel is forgotten by all but the dedicated.

    2. LE not clearing the family - If the family is innocent this is a HUGE disservice to them. I know I have said this previously, but the longer LE goes without doing this the more people will not be worried that there is a pervert out there kidnapping girls from their rooms, the more people will just assume it was the parents and think their kids are safe (at least this time).

    I am from Florida, so obviously I am used to information being out there almost immediately. But I can't help but think that this is not the way to handle a true kidnapping.
    Regarding an interview with the parents; would Isabel's parents be able answer questions LE won't answer? They'd likely only repeat "we can't comment on that, we can't answer that" through most of it.

    By now I hope someone's noticed a difference in the kidnapper(s) routine and calls it in.

    If the kidnappers escaped in a car or van and stopped at a truck stop, maybe they took Isabel inside to eat and use the bathroom so I hope Isabel's picture has been posted in all the truck stops along the major highways.

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  3. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by cluciano63 View Post
    It says that a child may have been forced in a car on FRIDAY, but there have been no reports of a child missing. So I guess it was nothing.
    JUSTICE IS COMING HALEIGH AND CAYLEE

    YOU GOT TO LOVE JUDGE STRICKLAND
    At it's core, the defense counsel's motion accuses the undersigned of being a "self aggrandizing media hound". Indeed. The irony is rich.

    Motion granted.

    Stan Strickland
    Circuit Judge

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  5. #328
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    The parents not going home does not concern me at all. I figure the boys are absolutely terrified to sleep there now

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    Quote Originally Posted by butterfly1978 View Post
    It says that a child may have been forced in a car on FRIDAY, but there have been no reports of a child missing. So I guess it was nothing.
    I know but the date of the story was today....updated. So who knows...
    Just my opinion, of course.

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  9. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oneoffourhills View Post
    Hello!
    I have also been a lurker for years. Isabels case being very close to my home has inspired me to post.

    My thought on the video release yesterday, was that while LE did want to speak to the 5 walkers, the intention of the legnth of the video, was to let the 6th person know that he was recorded. Perhaps to effect some sort of change in his daily pattern-rattle his cage-so that he would begin desplaying clues for others to become suspect of.

    Secondly, and the thought that I cannot get out of my mind are the 3 dogs becoming loose exactly 1 week, prior to the abduction. I certainly could have missed major discussion on this point, and if so please direct me. But I feel like this could have been a failed attempt-releasing the dogs, to acquire access to Isa. Or, releasing the dogs to LOOK like an intruder, and something interrupted the actual abduction on this day. Are there any previous comments on the dogs being out the prior Friday?

    According to AZ public access, there are no additional reports\charges on dogs loose ever before. I know I had a dog that is a runner, and one that is not. The "runner" was a repeat offender. Seems coincidental that the only time the dogs have ever gotten loose was 1 week prior, same day.


    Interesting post!

    Quote Originally Posted by cluciano63 View Post
    Capable, yes, but not sure how far I would send another child out of sight if one was already missing...JMO
    I agree but I'm sure they were sending everyone everywhere quickly, to try to find her. They may not have assumed she was kidnapped. If they did, why would they be sending their son to the store to look for her to begin with? That might have been the boy's own assumption.


    Quote Originally Posted by txjustice View Post
    This is only my second post! But I think this is an excellent idea. I think probably this or maybe the parents know or suspect something but are afraid to say. Maybe they have their suspicions about someone they know. I do think there are oddities in the way the parents have acted, but not sure if I see guilt.

    Also, I found it odd in a video posted a while back where the one of the brothers says "she was just a perfect little girl playing at the park". This seems a strange thing for a boy to say about his little sister...

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-tuc...0#.T53VVbPY_NU

    here's the link to the video.
    As others have stated, that was not her brother. But, I wanted to add that in context, the statement may not be that odd. He seemed to be thinking back if there were ay signs of something wrong, or something about to go wrong. I interpreted his response to be that she seemed fine, perfect, nothing was abnormal.

    Quote Originally Posted by ~n/t~ View Post
    Dear lord. It's only been a week. What?
    Yeah, that makes zero sense. That statement also makes me lose a bit of faith in this LE department.

    Quote Originally Posted by passionflower View Post
    http://abcnews.go.com/US/isabel-celi...ry?id=16238151
    so is this the man behind the dumpster thing???
    Not sure if this has been addressed yet, but no. This is one of the five who were walking by him.

    Quote Originally Posted by passionflower View Post
    the sleeping arrangements are hinky to me..........Isabel liked to sleep with her brothers and THAT night she went to bed alone.
    How did parents do that?
    Did she fuss?
    Did she fall asleep on the way home?
    I really wish we could have a post posted at the beginning of each new thread that cites what is rumor and what is fact or what has been legitimately reported by LE or a member of the family. It's too easy for assumptions to be made based on what we hear that may not be verified. No criticism of you, dear passionflower, implied at all!

    Quote Originally Posted by marazul View Post
    I understand the earlier couple of posts speculating about Sergio. I feel strange typing this, but I want to put it out there. Sometimes, in the Latino community, well-educated men have a way of coming off as slightly effiminate, to a point where others might say they "seem homosexual" or something. I am not saying anything negative about homosexual men, I definately don't think it has anything to do with this case, but in regards to the couple of posts that alluded to it, it is just something I have noticed, and more with South Americans and Mexicans than with Cubans or PRs. It is almost like a cultural thing, no idea why, but I have seen it many times. Sorry if that offended anyone at all.
    I totally get what you are saying and have observed the same phenomena myself. I also noted that affect in the case of Sergio. I do think it is a cultural thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by thefragile7393 View Post
    I can think of many reasons. In many Spanish fams stuff is kept close and many are private and reserved when tragedy happens. Family problems are kept close and drama isn't aired publicly. Some families consider grief a private thing. Not all fams are like this but it is something I've noticed in many fams as I was growing up.

    This was many years ago but when the kidnappings of Esther Galaz (who was later found murdered) and Karen Grajeda happened, those fams weren't plastered all over the news either. They were quiet and reserved and very little press was done on them. Grajeda's mom, IIRC at the time, spoke very little English as well and appeared only a few times in public. Neither family has spoken in years to any media.
    I have no links for backup, these are just my recollections, so of course please take them with a grain of salt. If you google their names you will see what I mean about very little being done in the public eye from these fams. The consequence has been that they are not well-known outside of AZ, and even inside AZ many do not remember them.

    Perhaps they are feeling guilty. Maybe they feel like they should have checked on her again or heard something, anything. Maybe they did hear something but ignored it because they figured it was just night time noises or street traffic or what have you. Dealing with those feelings and Going through all the stages of grief right in the public eye isn't something many (not all) Spanish fams are going to want to do. Unless you come from that culture or lived around it for a long time you can't understand. I don't speak for this family but I am trying to explain culture-wise why they may be reacting this way.

    Given time they may talk to the public. I don't expect a lot from what seems to be a rather private family right now. Leave them to their grief and let them deal in their own way, not anyone else's. If there is something up with the family then hopefully LE will sniff that out. It is very possible that they have been informed of the stats for what happens to a child after an abduction...maybe they have no hope and are too depressed themselves. I don't know. There is no one textbook way of reacting to every parent's worst nightmare, since we are all different backgrounds and cultures who deal with tragedy in diff ways.
    Excellent post and bingo. Have you guys visited the Find Isabel FB much? I go every day, a couple times a day and it is amazing the amount of things that are being done to try to find Isabel. Many of the posters are family of Isabel as can be seen by connecting the FB dots.

    I think this family is very active, as active as they can be, and retreating into a community of family and friends to try to find their baby.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pensfan View Post
    Not a LE quote, but quoting LE:
    http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/3325...ssing-girl.htm

    This one states that two dogs 'hit":
    The search for Celis intensified after two FBI search dogs hit upon something in the Celis family home overnight. Villasenor noted that there was a cadavaer dog and a scent dog used in the search.
    "We have information we obtained from the dogs that has necessitated more follow-up investigation," Tucson Police Chief Roberto Villasenor said today.
    Police evacuated the Celis family from their home today following the dog search, which involved one cadaver dog and one scent-following dog, Villasenor said. They are treating the house as a crime scene.

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-tuc...ry?id=16194621
    "Hit" seems to be the reporter's interpretation. It certainly is NOT what LE stated. They stated the dogs gave info. That could be inaction as well as action (hits).
    For Travis Alexander, a human being. Justice will prevail.


    *Gitana (means "Gypsy girl"). Pronounced "hee tah nah."

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  11. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by katydid23 View Post
    If someone climbed in the window in the dark of night and took my 6 yr old girl, I would not be afraid for my older sons to run around the next morning to look for her. I really would think it was someone who wanted a little girl, and would not be afraid my sons would be next, imo
    I think the family would benefit if their house had a security system installed in it before they returned home. MO

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  13. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by bwilson View Post
    Thanks for the welcome! You guys have provided more insight than the local news
    And that's how I realized this is where you go to get the most updating. (2008). Go WS. I've read them all, hands down the most information & fast. Thank you local Tucson for Isa who we want found. I am so proud there's so many helping.
    Last edited by Dr. Know?; 04-30-2012 at 02:03 AM. Reason: glasses...gar

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  15. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesky#1 View Post
    I think the family would benefit if their house had a security system installed in it before they returned home. MO
    Oh, I agree. My post was a reply to some one saying it was odd that the boys were allowed to run around the next morning looking for Isabel.

    But I agree about the fear of going back and sleeping in the home.
    “Every day that they don’t find something is good for me.“ Billie Dunn

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  17. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanwv View Post
    Apologies for the post, new at this, better at lurking.
    You're fine. Even I make mistakes sometimes. Only I have to catch them myself cuz no one will tell me. They're all afraid of my ray gun.



    Keep on posting!
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  19. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~n/t~ View Post
    Who would challenge them? Heck we would have a 5 hour series on all the misinformation released on shows like Nancy Grace.

    Check this out from her facebook when talking about the neighbour:

    She even says the girl seemed ‘comfortable’ enough to go with them.

    https://www.facebook.com/#!/NancyGraceHLN

    BBM She says that, however, she did NOT see anything. She only heard dogs a male voices. Had she looked out the window and seen Isabel going willingly that would be different.
    "A small body of determined spirits fired by an unquenchable faith in their mission can alter the course of history."

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  21. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmoothOperator View Post
    Below is the statements from todays presser that were mentioned about the elusive mystery man on the corner lot that the 5 witnesses walked past around 1:30am the morning of the abduction.. IMO we learned some things for certain in they're admitting there is a 6th person( as I know some were of the mind set that it was just shadows&lights).. That LE does NOT know who the 6th individual is.. And replied yes to a reporter asking does LE "want to know" who the 6th individual is.. Along with his stating that it is the 6th individual that is part of the entire reason they are anxious to speak with the 5 people walking past him..

    Here's my portion of notes from the presser specifically regarding the "6th individual" seen on the video..

    Notes from presser 4/29-
    -The 6th individual is an additional and separate issue.
    That's part of the reason we wanted to speak to these 5 individuals..

    -Do u know who that 6th unidentified person is?(reporter asks)

    No we do not(LE answers)

    - Do u want to know who that person is?(reporter asks)

    (LE answers)Yes, that's another reason we wanted to talk to these 5 individuals to see did they come in contact with this person or any other person for that matter..
    I do not want to get too much into who this mysterious person is.. There are a lot of people who are walking in this area, especially at that specific time with the particular bars right around there..some park a distance away to avoid us(as in LE)

    ___________________...
    Posting via mobile as well as via tablet so plz forgive all typos.. Btwn the sucky touch keyboard and the obsessive auto-correct it's a big ol' mess
    BBM. Wow. Interesting new info.

    Quote Originally Posted by marfda View Post
    I'm a new member and in Tucson. The local news is saying police made a break in the case. New developments tonight; "News at 10." It may be a play for viewers. It's is 9:30 here. But, perhaps there was progress today! I pray so.

    I am fascinated by the forums here. So much intelligence here! Thanks for letting me be a part!


    Quote Originally Posted by nanwv View Post
    Thanks KC-lived in Tucson for 20 years, this is close to my heart, not alot of people in my real world to bounce these thoughts off of. Because of familiarity to the city and area, my gut has been not a stranger. No facts to back that up. Happy to get it out of my head tho


    Quote Originally Posted by twall View Post
    Thanks for the local vibe and welcome to WS!
    Douglas is also where Hector Rodriquez is from. The Uncle seems to be an irresponsible drunk. He also has charges in Tucson.

    Missing girl's family and neighbors speak out
    04/21/2012 06:47 PM

    Isabel's grandfather from her mother's side, Hector Rodriguez, said he's praying for the family to receive good news soon.
    It's been an agonizing day for the family as they wait to hear about what happened with their loved one.
    Rodriguez was glued to his binoculars trying to see what was going on at the scene.
    He lives in Douglas and made the trip to Tucson as soon as his daughter called him with news that little Isabel went missing.
    "Why does this have to happen? It's something I just can't believe. I feel like I'm dreaming. I really do hope I'm dreaming because this is such a horrible thing. We feel so helpless," said Rodriguez.

    http://www.kvoa.com/full-coverage/finding-isabel/
    He also apparently has charges from Florida, IIRC.
    For Travis Alexander, a human being. Justice will prevail.


    *Gitana (means "Gypsy girl"). Pronounced "hee tah nah."

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  23. #337
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    I have been TRYING to come off my suspicions towards the uncle since day one. I want to move away from him, but I keep getting more and more info that makes me more and more suspicious.

    I don't think that 6th man in the parking lot is nearly as suspicious, imo, as what we now know about Uncle J. JMO

    I have got to wonder if he left his old life, and came to stay with family to start fresh. And perhaps he left a lot of very angry people in his wake...
    “Every day that they don’t find something is good for me.“ Billie Dunn

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  25. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by katydid23 View Post
    I have been TRYING to come off my suspicions towards the uncle since day one. I want to move away from him, but I keep getting more and more info that makes me more and more suspicious.

    I don't think that 6th man in the parking lot is nearly as suspicious, imo, as what we now know about Uncle J. JMO

    I have got to wonder if he left his old life, and came to stay with family to start fresh. And perhaps he left a lot of very angry people in his wake...
    Has MSM printed his name?
    Just my opinion, of course.

  26. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by cluciano63 View Post
    Has MSM printed his name?
    I think so. But I am not accusing him of doing anything to his niece. I am just thinking that people wanted revenge upon him, and this might be how they got the revenge.
    “Every day that they don’t find something is good for me.“ Billie Dunn

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  28. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by katydid23 View Post
    I think so. But I am not accusing him of doing anything to his niece. I am just thinking that people wanted revenge upon him, and this might be how they got the revenge.
    I found it...he has been named as the person who gave some quotes to media.
    Just my opinion, of course.

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  30. #341
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    Hi...this is really my opinion only and I hope I dont ruffle any feathers or sound prejudice etc as basically here in australia we dont know what is really going on with mexicans, drugs, illegal immigrants etc expect that we know there is certainly some sort of problem.

    After being on websleuths for a number of years I tend to get cynical when families start sprouting about someone being kidnapped or abducted by the lurking stranger as the majority of the time it does end up being a cover up for something that happened within the family.

    HOWEVER I am wondering if she was indeed kidnapped and it has something to do with payback, gangs, drugs, illegal immigrants etc etc after reading about the uncle.
    REVAMPZ

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  32. #342
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    It is a terrible crime to abduct a child. For terrible reasons. How baffling a case is this.
    That said, I can't see how anyone could have abducted her without leaving obvious signs of sudden drama. The intense LE effort seems to be stymied.
    Further, dissecting the events surrounding the incident does not seem to be producing much help towards finding Isobel.

    Are criminals getting smarter?


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  34. #343
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    Oh, and also I have a question-if it has been brought up before-that is, the nature of the question, I apologize.

    Is there a casino in town or somewhere near? Are there legal gambling establishments nearby?

    TIA
    moo


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  36. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesky#1 View Post
    Regarding an interview with the parents; would Isabel's parents be able answer questions LE won't answer? They'd likely only repeat "we can't comment on that, we can't answer that" through most of it.

    By now I hope someone's noticed a difference in the kidnapper(s) routine and calls it in.

    If the kidnappers escaped in a car or van and stopped at a truck stop, maybe they took Isabel inside to eat and use the bathroom so I hope Isabel's picture has been posted in all the truck stops along the major highways.
    As far as the parents appearing, I would expect them to talk about Isabel, rather than any case details. What kind of girl was she, what was she interested in, how she was in school, etc. Things that would humanize Isabel even more. Stuff like that keeps Isabel in the news. Also, perhaps talking about the efforts going on to help find Isabel. For instance there was a face painting going on at the command center to raise money, there was a little concert, they have t-shirts and flyers etc. I think all of this coming from the parents, the parents being actively involved in getting the community involved goes a long way.

    I know there are things that aren't great about speaking to the media. Its just my opinion that those things are nothing compared to the ability to keep Isabel in the news.

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  38. #345
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    He also apparently has charges from Florida, IIRC.
    Ties to the FL Keys. Another major route of illegal drug entry into the US. Douglas is an infamous doozy of an entry point. I have familial roots there and spent many, MANY summers there.

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  40. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry Night View Post
    Oh, and also I have a question-if it has been brought up before-that is, the nature of the question, I apologize.

    Is there a casino in town or somewhere near? Are there legal gambling establishments nearby?

    TIA
    moo
    There are a two casinos on reservation lands South of town. About a 40 minute drive (with normal traffic)... Pasqua Yaqui and Tohono O'odham. Maybe there's a third... I don't gamble, so don't pay any attention.

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  42. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by liz b. View Post
    That's interesting,about the neighbor's comment.I watched the video of her again. She was saying that,in her opinion, Isabel may have felt comfortable going with the men she heard. Because,she said, she did not hear Isabel scream, or yell,or any sounds of a female child's voice ...

    She also said that she could not tell if they were speaking English or Spanish...MOO
    Not true. I clipped the following discussion from NG's transcript.

    <snipped>
    GRACE: And Ms. Stardevant, you coming forward and speaking, answering questions, means so much to literally millions of people that are praying for Isabel`s safe return.

    I know that you state you heard dogs barking and male voices that you believe to have been English-speaking around 6:30 AM that morning. Could you show me behind you where you were and tell me what you heard?

    I remember hearing English, I think. You know, again, I wasn`t paying a lot of attention. But it didn`t seem like it was a language that I wouldn`t understand, that I didn`t understand”.

    “I really do think it was English voices.”

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../26/ng.01.html


    Ms. Stardevant said she heard Isabel’s parents say hello to her so if Sergio and the uncle have an accent, Alicia should be able to tell whether the male voice she heard at 6:30 am belongs to Sergio.

    Ms. Stardevant should also know whether the males were walking through the alley (if so there voices would fade) or if they were standing directly outside Isabel’s window.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesky#1 View Post
    Not true. I clipped the following discussion from NG's transcript.

    <snipped>
    GRACE: And Ms. Stardevant, you coming forward and speaking, answering questions, means so much to literally millions of people that are praying for Isabel`s safe return.

    I know that you state you heard dogs barking and male voices that you believe to have been English-speaking around 6:30 AM that morning. Could you show me behind you where you were and tell me what you heard?

    I remember hearing English, I think. You know, again, I wasn`t paying a lot of attention. But it didn`t seem like it was a language that I wouldn`t understand, that I didn`t understand”.

    “I really do think it was English voices.”

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../26/ng.01.html


    Ms. Stardevant said she heard Isabel’s parents say hello to her so if Sergio and the uncle have an accent, Alicia should be able to tell whether the male voice she heard at 6:30 am belongs to Sergio.

    Ms. Stardevant should also know whether the males were walking through the alley (if so there voices would fade) or if they were standing directly outside Isabel’s window.
    I saw a news report with her saying she did not know if they were speaking English or Spanish.

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  45. #349
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    Here is how Ms. Stardevant described Isabel’s bedroom window to NG.

    NG asked the witness to point to Isabel's bedroom window for the viewers and confirm it was Isabel's and she did. An on-screen camera captured Isabel's window and I believe I saw a light-colored sheer curtain. I'll find and post the video but since the curtains were hung in a girl's bedroom, it makes sense they were light-colored and light-colored curtains are see through.

    <snipped>

    And that`s the window -- yes?

    GRACE: Did the window typically have a screen on it?

    STARDEVANT: Yes, it did. And that morning, when I looked over the wall, I wasn`t paying attention to where the screen was, but I know that the window itself was completely open. There was no screen and -- but I`m not sure where the screen was when I looked over the wall.

    STARDEVANT: Yes. Yes. And it`s a very big window. And it was wide open at 8:00 AM. When I came out, when I discovered that she was missing and I looked over the wall, it was wide open.

    GRACE: Alicia, is it typically open? Or do they use air- conditioning?

    STARDEVANT: No, it`s -- I`ve never seen it open ever. So it was a little unusual.

    GRACE: Never? So I noticed that they don`t have burglar bars. Do you know if they have an alarm in the house? Have you ever heard it set off accidentally?

    STARDEVANT: I`ve never heard an alarm. I don`t believe that they have an alarm, but I`m not sure if they do.

    Ms. Stardevant, back to that window. When you saw it, do you recall whether the curtains had been pulled away, or were they as they are right now?

    STARDEVANT: They were to the side. I could see into her bedroom when I looked over the wall.
    GRACE: You could see directly into her bedroom?

    STARDEVANT: Yes, I could.

    STARDEVANT: What could you see in her bedroom?

    GRACE: Well, I wasn`t trying to be very nosy. I didn`t want to pry into anyone`s business, so I didn`t really take a very hard look. I just remember seeing her bed. I think I saw a dresser. Nothing looked like it was -- like there was a huge scene that went on there. It looked normal.

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../26/ng.01.html
    Last edited by Crosby87; 04-30-2012 at 06:42 AM.

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  47. #350
    Join Date
    May 2009
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    Here is the discussion I was referring to between NG and Lt. Fabian Pacheco, who’s the Executive Officer for Tucson Police Department regarding polygraphs.

    Since the uncle is a close relative and 2 LE officers said on Nancy Grace that “polygraphs is a standard operating procedure, not only the parents but the uncle too must have agreed to take one and passed.

    <snipped>
    GRACE: Lieutenant, I know this must be a really hard job for you and your men and women.

    Lieutenant, a couple of questions. And I think I know what your answer is going to be. Have any polygraphs been administered?

    PACHECO: Well, again, we`re a pretty large agency with a lot of resources. So in these types of investigations, those are kind of standard practice without telling you one way or another to not hurt the investigation, I can assure you that we`ve done everything possible up to this point. And again that`s part of the thing –

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../26/ng.01.html

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