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Thread: Trial Thread, Weekend Discussion May 4-5, 2012 Waiting for Closing Arguments

  1. #1
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    Trial Thread, Weekend Discussion May 4-5, 2012 Waiting for Closing Arguments

    Trial Discussion Thread:

    reposting a few of the warnings:

    Okay everybody - LISTEN UP! We are not bashing, accusing or blaming Tori's family here. It won't be allowed.

    Children walk home from school every day without incident. Parents are not perfect, it's just not possible. Tori's parents DID NOT do this to her. TLM and an accomplice DID. That is where the blame goes.

    We had a lot of family bashing in the early parts of this investigation after Tori went missing and a lot of baseless accusations - NONE OF WHICH PROVED TO BE TRUE. Victim and family bashing will not be allowed during this trial.

    Thank you,
    Salem

    ---------------------------------


    As some of you may have noticed, the members following this case are dropping in numbers. It's disheartening to us because we need and welcome discussion of both sides of every issue on Websleuths.

    Zero tolerance means ZERO tolerance. Please discuss this case with respect to your fellow members. Subtle and veiled harassment and/or talking in code about other members will not be tolerated.

    A word of caution on the Alerts in this forum. If you alert a post, make sure it is a clear violation of our Terms of Service. A difference of opinion is not a violation of TOS.

    Please note that everything discussed in court and printed/tweeted is now within the realm of discussion. WS has never and does not now have a policy of "innocent until proven guilty." That is for the court room. Here, we discuss, speculate, theorize and judge according to the opinions we develop from following the case.

    Keeping that in mind, abuse of our alert system is a good way to find yourself in timeout or worse. Abuse of the alert systems includes, but is not limited to:

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    Once you have alerted a post, move on and don't question the decisions of our Administrators, Moderators or Owners.

    Following this trial is very important to our members and we're going to see that they have their day in court. The "zero tolerance" policy in this forum will continue and it will be enforced.

    Thank you and please carry on.
    Sue aka SoSueMe
    Websleuths Co-Owner

    ------

    Please keep discussion focused on what has been presented in testimony and remember to link up as the partial publication ban is still in place
    Last edited by Salem; 05-03-2012 at 11:51 PM. Reason: Change title
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  3. #2
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    Trial Thread, May 2, 2012 Defense's 2nd day at bat

    I'm creating the thread in advance, so not sure where the Defense stands right now. But this is day 2 of their case in chief.

    Salem

    ETA: Scratch the above. This thread is for the weekend before CLOSING ARGUMENTS begin. The case is wrapping up. Defense will give Closings on Monday, May 6th; Crown is scheduled to follow on Tues. May 7th, Jury Instructions on Wednesday & Thurs., May 8th & 9th and then the jury will begin deliberations.

    Praying for justice for Tori,

    Salem
    Last edited by Salem; 05-03-2012 at 11:53 PM.
    "If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking." George S. Patton, Jr.

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  5. #3
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    *Bump*
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    Websleuths.com, LLC Co-Owner
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  7. #4
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    Good Morning!





    I can't believe there is another delay!
    Justice for Holly Bobo🎀

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  9. #5
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    I thought the defence was to do closing arguments today. No? When did that change?

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    I assume it was announced yesterday as thats when it was posted here.
    All posts are my opinion only unless supported by a link
    Keep calm and carry on

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  13. #7
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    I am behind..

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  15. #8
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    Days and days and days of legal arguments.

    I don't recall in the US that legal arguments aren't public, and often they give a more complete understanding of why the Crown asked this or the defense didn't ask that.

    It is really too bad, Canadians aren't considered mature enough to watch the trial live.

    Big "nanny" state in Canada.

    We are the government..........you have nothing to fear..............

    JMO.......

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  17. #9
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    This is a REMINDER - Do NOT BASH any member of the family. Do NOT insinuate that any member of the family is responsible for what happened to Victoria. It will NOT BE TOLERATED.

    Unless or until such a charge can be confirmed by media or LE such accusations and insinuations will result in TOs for the poster. Tara admitted that she used drugs and had met CM. That is the testimony. That can be discussed, but taking it further and insinuating that Tara is in anyway responsible, will not be allowed.

    Thanks,

    Salem
    "If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking." George S. Patton, Jr.

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  19. #10
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    Where is everybody? <modsnip>, lol? Or is everyone else trying to catch up, like me?
    Last edited by Salem; 05-04-2012 at 02:15 PM. Reason: Cute - but not allowed :)

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  21. #11
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    Been posting on the previous thread all morning, I didn't see it moved over this morning, it kept saying no current thread??? No wonder everyone wasn't there.
    Take the road of truth or it will eventually be done for you

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  23. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittymama View Post
    Where is everybody? <modsnip>, lol? Or is everyone else trying to catch up, like me?
    Are you bored? If so, have you seen this:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/offbeat/story...-portland.html


    Just had to post it cuz it was wee bit funny.
    Last edited by Salem; 05-04-2012 at 02:15 PM.
    Though I fall, I fall like a star, streaming splendour through the sky.
    Justice has not failed Victoria... Rest in peace Angel.

    Princess on Earth, Angel in Heaven


    If two points are destined to touch, the universe will always find a way to make the connection. Even when all hope seems lost, certain ties cannot be broken. They define who we are and who we can become. Across space, across time, even across paths we cannot predict. -Touch

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  25. #13
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    I have been thinking about the remote farm lane and found myself wondering about some things.

    IF MR knew about this farm lane from his work in the area, it is quite probable that he knew about many others in the area.

    Why would he pick a lane that was right across from a house? Anyone from that house could have seen him to in and called the farmer.

    People living in the country know who owns the land around them, and will tell each other if they spot someone entering someone else's land.

    Often, the land owners are concerned with illegal dumping and don't want their property to become home for cast away junk or construction material.

    The lane is also quite narrow and only one lane for the majority of it.

    If the farmer had pulled down that lane in his truck..........MR had nowhere to go.

    No farmer is simply going to go in and listen to a BS answer and drive away.

    They would take a look around and then follow the people out, while noting their licence plate number.

    In my opinion, MR took a big chance going down that lane, if his intention was to be there awhile.

    JMO..............

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  27. #14
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    Questions for those who believe Tori was targeted by TLM...

    If TLM "knew" Tori, wouldn't TLM also know that she always walked home with her brother? How was she planning to separate them to get Tori alone?

    And again if TLM knew Tori, why would she lie about it and why would Tara testify to the same? I think if TLM could admit to "savagely beating to death" a little girl, why would she lie about it being a random child that happened to be standing alone (probably waiting or looking for DS)? And for what reason would TLM even want to lie about it?

    I just can't wrap my head around Tori being targeted! Thanks for any insight...

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  29. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hello_Kitty View Post
    Are you bored? If so, have you seen this:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/offbeat/story...-portland.html


    Just had to post it cuz it was wee bit funny.
    No, I'm too busy trying to catch up to be bored!

    I saw that on the news last night. It's funny, but kind of freaky--I can't believe the parents were just calmly filming it. If that was my baby, I'd be grabbing him and moving him away from the hungry lion, just from instinct, even though I'd know the lion couldn't get him. I also feel sort of bad for the lion--he thought he was going to get a nice zebra treat. Somebody feed that poor thing, lol!

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    It was suggested in the previous thread that the defence might have presented so little evidence because an appeal would be possible after a lot of banned information would become available once this trial is over. It was also asked whether Desrtine would still be paid by Legal Aid. Does anyone have any answers or options? Who pays for a prisoner's defence on appeal? Still Legal Aid, or does the money come straight from the taxpayers?

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  33. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardy View Post
    I have been thinking about the remote farm lane and found myself wondering about some things.

    IF MR knew about this farm lane from his work in the area, it is quite probable that he knew about many others in the area.

    Why would he pick a lane that was right across from a house? Anyone from that house could have seen him to in and called the farmer.

    People living in the country know who owns the land around them, and will tell each other if they spot someone entering someone else's land.

    Often, the land owners are concerned with illegal dumping and don't want their property to become home for cast away junk or construction material.

    The lane is also quite narrow and only one lane for the majority of it.

    If the farmer had pulled down that lane in his truck..........MR had nowhere to go.

    No farmer is simply going to go in and listen to a BS answer and drive away.

    They would take a look around and then follow the people out, while noting their licence plate number.

    In my opinion, MR took a big chance going down that lane, if his intention was to be there awhile.

    JMO..............
    I believe he picked that lane because he knew about the area at the end, where Tori was found. He knew it wasn't visible from the road. He may also have known the land was owned by a mennonite farmer who by all accounts did not have a truck and drove a horse and buggy. Seems like MR was into taking chances anyway if you look at how many women he had on the string at the same time.
    ♥♥♥ In Memory of Tori ♥♥♥

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  35. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by kmclaren View Post
    Questions for those who believe Tori was targeted by TLM...

    If TLM "knew" Tori, wouldn't TLM also know that she always walked home with her brother? How was she planning to separate them to get Tori alone?

    And again if TLM knew Tori, why would she lie about it and why would Tara testify to the same? I think if TLM could admit to "savagely beating to death" a little girl, why would she lie about it being a random child that happened to be standing alone (probably waiting or looking for DS)? And for what reason would TLM even want to lie about it?

    I just can't wrap my head around Tori being targeted! Thanks for any insight...
    well put it this way..if TLM had picked TS up OUTSIDE the school the chances are she might have seen that the child was alone BUT she was BAREFACED enough to go inside the school and nab TS..how did she not know that maybe the Grandmother was outside waiting in a car. If TM was outside and the fact she knew TM I think she would have had second thoughts...do you think she entered that school and went up to other children and asked them if they were waiting for anyone and then stuck gold with TS when she answered NO..IF TS was supposed to wait for her brother to pick her up why wouldn't TS say that to TLM, if that were the case...I don't think the TS was going to wait for her brother...that may not have been the plan or else TS has a short attention span and forgot...I believe that somehow that day TLM found out that TS was going to walk home by herself and that is why TLM pounced and more than likely she told TS that TM, her mother sent her to pick her up...JMO simple as that...I will admit that the teachers were lax etc. and the school does not want to take any blame for what happened...When I used to pick my grandson up from his school when his parents could not make it, my name was on a list and even though the teacher knew me, because I was not the parent I still had to sign a paper, signing him out... This is in Ontario and I would think most school would follow this procedure...If I had been the only one picking him up on a daily basis I more than likely would not have had to sign him out...just saying....someone was lax that day all the way down the line and some people are lying and still are....JMO covering their ass so to speak...for whatever reasons....JMO

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  37. #19
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    When someone gets arrested for a crime like this, I think the natural tendency is to believe LE must have absolute proof the accused did it...........so most people have absolute certainty of guilt at that point in time.

    Exhibit 1............the public outrage and condemnation of MR as soon as he was arrested.

    Lots of rumors etc start swirling and that affects my opinion, but we have to presume the jury heard none of it..........so we can still enter the trial from a position of absolute guilt.

    The trial starts.........and TLM takes the stand. I listen to her background, and Derstine shedding light on issues of credibility.

    I listen to the Crown experts.........lots of evidence presented.........but Derstine manages to get them to admit they have no conclusive proof of a sexual assault........

    By now, my belief in absolute guiilt is starting to erode. It now sits at the point where I am "sure" MR is guilty.

    I listen to the cellphone records.........and understand MR was there and it corroborates that part of TLM's testimony. I remain "sure" of his guilt..........since the defense doesn't argue the evidence to any great extent.

    I watch the video.....but all they show of MR is going to use ATMs. The rest is about TLM during the abduction and the HD store.

    Still...........I am "sure" of his guilt.

    When I start to consider the evidence, I realize that much of the Crown scientific evidence was non conclusive. The pea coat, the sexual assault, the phone records,..............all non conclusive. There are reasons there is no evidence and why no evidence would be expected..........but that doesn't mean the evidence was ever there to start with.

    No proof is no proof.

    Then there is the blood spot..........I am now solidly "sure" MR is guilty, but then I learn there is MR sperm all over the back of the front seats.........back to only "sure" he is guilty on the meter.

    Then the defense puts a witness up who says she saw TLM entering the school................Huh?............that is a direct contradiction on two different things that TLM stated on the witness stand.

    She said she was outside beside a tree....waiting for the first child to come by, and she said she wasn't walking in a hurry with obedient VS following behind.

    The witness testimony says that TLM isn't telling the truth on either of those things. If TLM lied about who committed the murder, and where she met VS, and how she walked away with VS down the sidewalk.........what else is she lying about?

    Now my guilt meter has fallen below "sure" and is somewhere around "most likely" guilty.

    At this point............that would fall below the beyond a reasonable doubt threshold.

    The defense and Crown still have their key summaries to give.

    If either falters.........it would move the guilt meter either way.

    JMO.........

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  39. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by kmclaren View Post
    Questions for those who believe Tori was targeted by TLM...

    If TLM "knew" Tori, wouldn't TLM also know that she always walked home with her brother? How was she planning to separate them to get Tori alone?

    And again if TLM knew Tori, why would she lie about it and why would Tara testify to the same? I think if TLM could admit to "savagely beating to death" a little girl, why would she lie about it being a random child that happened to be standing alone (probably waiting or looking for DS)? And for what reason would TLM even want to lie about it?

    I just can't wrap my head around Tori being targeted! Thanks for any insight...
    well put it this way..if TLM had picked TS up OUTSIDE the school the chances are she might have seen that the child was alone BUT she was BAREFACED enough to go inside the school and nab TS..how did she not know that maybe the Grandmother was outside waiting in a car. If TM was outside and the fact she knew TM I think she would have had second thoughts...do you think she entered that school and went up to other children and asked them if they were waiting for anyone and then stuck gold with TS when she answered NO..IF TS was supposed to wait for her brother to pick her up why wouldn't TS say that to TLM, if that were the case...I don't think the TS was going to wait for her brother...that may not have been the plan or else TS has a short attention span and forgot...I believe that somehow that day TLM found out that TS was going to walk home by herself and that is why TLM pounced and more than likely she told TS that TM, her mother sent her to pick her up...JMO simple as that...I will admit that the teachers were lax etc. and the school does not want to take any blame for what happened...When I used to pick my grandson up from his school when his parents could not make it, my name was on a list and even though the teacher knew me, because I was not the parent I still hadto sign a paper, signing him out... This is in Ontario and I would think most school would follow this procedure...If I had been the only one picking him up on a daily basis I more than likely would not have had to sign him out...just saying....someone was lax that day all the way down the line and some people are lying and still are....JMO covering their ass so to speak...for whatever reasons....JMO

  40. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardy View Post
    I have been thinking about the remote farm lane and found myself wondering about some things.

    IF MR knew about this farm lane from his work in the area, it is quite probable that he knew about many others in the area.

    Why would he pick a lane that was right across from a house? Anyone from that house could have seen him to in and called the farmer.

    People living in the country know who owns the land around them, and will tell each other if they spot someone entering someone else's land.

    Often, the land owners are concerned with illegal dumping and don't want their property to become home for cast away junk or construction material.

    The lane is also quite narrow and only one lane for the majority of it.

    If the farmer had pulled down that lane in his truck..........MR had nowhere to go.

    No farmer is simply going to go in and listen to a BS answer and drive away.

    They would take a look around and then follow the people out, while noting their licence plate number.

    In my opinion, MR took a big chance going down that lane, if his intention was to be there awhile.

    JMO..............
    I've thought of that as well... Why that field ??

    Woodstock IS Farmland area... Why drive all the way to Mt. Forest to do the deed ?.... stopping off at a drug pick up and a cup of Tea at Tim Horton's... What the heck ?? It dosn't add up for me.

    I just don't buy the Rape theory. That's not to say he isn't guilty of Kidnapping and therefore 1st degree Murder. But parts of TLM's accounting of the rape don't make sense to me.

    1) I just don't believe that an 8 year old girl - who had come from being in school all day would suffer though a sexual assualt and wait to be assisted by TLM off to take a bathroom break at the front of the car - and then be ushered back for round two of the rape. IMO any little girl, scared out of her mind just would not have been ale to hold onto the contents of her bladder. I do not believe her.

    2) I can't imagine that MTR would take off his pants and leave his feet out in the snow outside the vehicle during the rape ... and then continue on with the murder and hiding of her little body - all while not wearing any pants and shoes. I don't believe it.

    3) Finally, I've always thought since hearing the story that TLM testified to in court - that it would be really difficult to hold and 8 year old on your lap in the back seat of a Honda Civic... There just isn't that much room -- I don't believe it... sorry.

    I had really wished there was more evidence of the rape that just TLM's testimony.

    I know there are those who are going to say... well then how come she was missing her skirt and tights. I do think that it is quite possible that poor little Tori needed to use the washroom and by the time they got around to stopping somewhere to let her go... she had soiled herself. It is quite possible that TLM started to beat her for this reason and completely lost her mind. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if TLM had been beaten as a child for wetting her pants. It may have even already happened before the Home Depot stop... thus the need to purchse garbage bags.

    Again, It dosn't mean that MR is not guilty of the abduction and still should get life in prison.

    MOO

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  42. #22
    sorry not sure what happened there and my post was posted twice...

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  44. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by maxfactor View Post
    I believe he picked that lane because he knew about the area at the end, where Tori was found. He knew it wasn't visible from the road. He may also have known the land was owned by a mennonite farmer who by all accounts did not have a truck and drove a horse and buggy. Seems like MR was into taking chances anyway if you look at how many women he had on the string at the same time.
    not all Mennonite farmers drive a horse and buggy around their land...saw this and learned this for myself when visiting some Mennonite farms... just saying...JMO
    many have tractors etc.. now and that was explained to me as being acceptable on their own land....

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  46. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardy View Post
    When someone gets arrested for a crime like this, I think the natural tendency is to believe LE must have absolute proof the accused did it...........so most people have absolute certainty of guilt at that point in time.

    Exhibit 1............the public outrage and condemnation of MR as soon as he was arrested.

    Lots of rumors etc start swirling and that affects my opinion, but we have to presume the jury heard none of it..........so we can still enter the trial from a position of absolute guilt.

    The trial starts.........and TLM takes the stand. I listen to her background, and Derstine shedding light on issues of credibility.

    I listen to the Crown experts.........lots of evidence presented.........but Derstine manages to get them to admit they have no conclusive proof of a sexual assault........

    By now, my belief in absolute guiilt is starting to erode. It now sits at the point where I am "sure" MR is guilty.

    I listen to the cellphone records.........and understand MR was there and it corroborates that part of TLM's testimony. I remain "sure" of his guilt..........since the defense doesn't argue the evidence to any great extent.

    I watch the video.....but all they show of MR is going to use ATMs. The rest is about TLM during the abduction and the HD store.

    Still...........I am "sure" of his guilt.

    When I start to consider the evidence, I realize that much of the Crown scientific evidence was non conclusive. The pea coat, the sexual assault, the phone records,..............all non conclusive. There are reasons there is no evidence and why no evidence would be expected..........but that doesn't mean the evidence was ever there to start with.

    No proof is no proof.

    Then there is the blood spot..........I am now solidly "sure" MR is guilty, but then I learn there is MR sperm all over the back of the front seats.........back to only "sure" he is guilty on the meter.

    Then the defense puts a witness up who says she saw TLM entering the school................Huh?............that is a direct contradiction on two different things that TLM stated on the witness stand.

    She said she was outside beside a tree....waiting for the first child to come by, and she said she wasn't walking in a hurry with obedient VS following behind.

    The witness testimony says that TLM isn't telling the truth on either of those things. If TLM lied about who committed the murder, and where she met VS, and how she walked away with VS down the sidewalk.........what else is she lying about?

    Now my guilt meter has fallen below "sure" and is somewhere around "most likely" guilty.

    At this point............that would fall below the beyond a reasonable doubt threshold.

    The defense and Crown still have their key summaries to give.

    If either falters.........it would move the guilt meter either way.

    JMO.........


    wow.....JMO

  47. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by giantalkinghead View Post
    I've thought of that as well... Why that field ??

    Woodstock IS Farmland area... Why drive all the way to Mt. Forest to do the deed ?.... stopping off at a drug pick up and a cup of Tea at Tim Horton's... What the heck ?? It dosn't add up for me.
    MOO
    Snipped for space:

    Snipped for space.

    Well that's just it, he went to buy the drugs in Guelph... so why would they go back to Woodstock? MTR probably said he knows a secluded place they could bring her to.
    Though I fall, I fall like a star, streaming splendour through the sky.
    Justice has not failed Victoria... Rest in peace Angel.

    Princess on Earth, Angel in Heaven


    If two points are destined to touch, the universe will always find a way to make the connection. Even when all hope seems lost, certain ties cannot be broken. They define who we are and who we can become. Across space, across time, even across paths we cannot predict. -Touch

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