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  1. #211
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    Locking while I clean up. Will reopen soon.

  2. #212
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    Okay guys. I removed posts discussing the bond hearing, debating SYG laws, the possibility of a plea deal, and much, much more. Removed 35 posts in total. Please find the TOPICAL thread to post your thoughts & opinions. I hate to see so much work go to waste by being removed. I understand how a thread goes sideways. One thought leads to another and it starts spiraling until the thread is completely off topic. We all contribute at times. Just be aware and nudge those with who you are conversing and all of y'all move over to the right thread so your posts get to stand, okay?

    I will try to move them to the topical thread when I get home tonight.



  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Noiter View Post
    You also couldn't see the gashes in his head on those videos until they were enhanced. EMTs saying he doesn't need to go to the hospital is based on the fact that he was coherent. If he were not coherent he wouldn't have an option, but because he was they could not force him to go.
    The "enhanced" video was actually only one frame from the video, why not release the entire "enhanced" video for everyone to see? Unless of course there is nothing on the rest of the "enhanced" video that shows what that one frame does. Zimmerman was wearing a light grey shirt that night. Any blood that would be on the shirt, unless it was microscopic, would certainly show due to the color differences. EMS would not allow a person with an open wound that required stitches but did not get stitches because of waiting to long so that the wound began to heal already to leave without at least a bandage on that open wound. One does not have to go to the ER to get a bandage put on or even a butterfly bandage put on. A butterfly bandage is a bandage used in place of stitches for a minor cut or laceration that has smooth edges. Again, I stand by my claim that the evidence we have seen so far does not match up with what Zimmerman, his friends, family and/or lawyers have claimed.

    If the evidence does not back up the other claims made by Zimmerman then I have to also disregard his claim that he was in fact the one yelling for help on the recorded 911 call. By the way, did this claim of his yelling for help come before or after that 911 call was released to the public? I think it makes a difference since there are clearly more than just yells for help. Perhaps Zimmeman didn't realize that the screams were recorded when he made that statement so he had no idea that he also needed to claim it was him that was begging and pleading for his life, instead of Trayvon.

    MOO

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by TorisMom003 View Post
    The "enhanced" video was actually only one frame from the video, why not release the entire "enhanced" video for everyone to see? Unless of course there is nothing on the rest of the "enhanced" video that shows what that one frame does. Zimmerman was wearing a light grey shirt that night. Any blood that would be on the shirt, unless it was microscopic, would certainly show due to the color differences. EMS would not allow a person with an open wound that required stitches but did not get stitches because of waiting to long so that the wound began to heal already to leave without at least a bandage on that open wound. One does not have to go to the ER to get a bandage put on or even a butterfly bandage put on. A butterfly bandage is a bandage used in place of stitches for a minor cut or laceration that has smooth edges. Again, I stand by my claim that the evidence we have seen so far does not match up with what Zimmerman, his friends, family and/or lawyers have claimed.

    If the evidence does not back up the other claims made by Zimmerman then I have to also disregard his claim that he was in fact the one yelling for help on the recorded 911 call. By the way, did this claim of his yelling for help come before or after that 911 call was released to the public? I think it makes a difference since there are clearly more than just yells for help. Perhaps Zimmeman didn't realize that the screams were recorded when he made that statement so he had no idea that he also needed to claim it was him that was begging and pleading for his life, instead of Trayvon.

    MOO
    I won't say factually whether they did or didn't. The picture, though enhanced, doesn't really give any clear indication - only a couple slightly less smudged marks, which could be blood dripping from a soaked bandage (I'm not saying it is, just that it could be). The only evidence we currently have is that picture that I'm aware of.
    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
    “In all debates, let truth be thy aim, not victory, or an unjust interest.” - William Penn

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Noiter View Post
    You also couldn't see the gashes in his head on those videos until they were enhanced. EMTs saying he doesn't need to go to the hospital is based on the fact that he was coherent. If he were not coherent he wouldn't have an option, but because he was they could not force him to go.
    JMO but I think if he had injuries that needed medical care beyond what the EMTs could do for him right there I think he would have gone or he would have had no choice but to go. If he really had his head slammed to the concrete like he claims he would be so dizzy, disorientated and not coherent enough to give LE a statement and stand there claimng he had just shot someone. He would be more concerned with his own injuries. EMTs were able to treat him right there on the scene with a band aid. Head injuries are the worst and if the EMTs didn't think he needed to be transferred to a hospital how bad could they really have been?

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by TorisMom003 View Post
    While that is a great visual and something I'm sure that the defense will use in the trial there is one problem with it..........the evidence that we have seen so far does not back it up. Zimmerman shows no signs of a life or death struggle/fight at all on the police station videos. There are no blood stains on either his shirt or jacket that are visible on the police station videos. EMS released Zimmerman after a few minutes without so much as a bandage on his injuries.

    Trayvon could have very well been on top of Zimmerman because of Zimmerman refusing to release him. We have no idea if Zimmerman had his gun out at the time or not. I know that if someone had a hold of me, refused to let me go and had a gun pointed at me I would be fighting like hell to get away while screaming and pleading for my life. And I am not a 17 year old kid either.

    MOO
    Agreed!

    IMO, Trayvon may have been on top when "John" saw him but could've been on the bottom before and/or after. He could've been on bottom and screaming when he was shot and then GZ flipped him over after he shot him.

    I do not see how someone swallowing copious amounts of blood with his mouth/nose covered can scream like what we heard on the 911 call.

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Noiter View Post
    Without something to compare the screams to, technology capable or not, they can't say it WAS Mr. Martin. They can only give an estimation that it wasn't Mr. Zimmerman.

    Edit: Also, as a carrier I can tell you that I would do everything in my power before I decided to draw my weapon. We are not "gun slingin" outlaws who shoot to kill then blow on the barrel of our guns before re-holstering.
    Not being snarky in the least, just curious but does everyone in Florida carry a weapon and why? It seems so odd to me! I can't imagine unless I was LE or in Security of some sort.

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaryAnn View Post
    JMO but I think if he had injuries that needed medical care beyond what the EMTs could do for him right there I think he would have gone or he would have had no choice but to go. If he really had his head slammed to the concrete like he claims he would be so dizzy, disorientated and not coherent enough to give LE a statement and stand there claimng he had just shot someone. He would be more concerned with his own injuries. EMTs were able to treat him right there on the scene with a band aid. Head injuries are the worst and if the EMTs didn't think he needed to be transferred to a hospital how bad could they really have been?
    I don't even have to read the report to assure you that EMT never wrote they didn't think GZ needed to go to the ER. They may have made notes about his condition, but it is never their right to say one way or the other unless the patient is incoherent. GZ has a constitutional right to refuse medical attention.

    People in shock sometimes don't realize the extent of their injuries. I had a friend break every bone in her face practically in a horrific accident, when EMT arrived, she was helping a kid out of the other vehicle. I don't think GZ's injuries were severe either, but I don't think he was all there after just having killed someone.

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaryAnn View Post
    JMO but I think if he had injuries that needed medical care beyond what the EMTs could do for him right there I think he would have gone or he would have had no choice but to go. If he really had his head slammed to the concrete like he claims he would be so dizzy, disorientated and not coherent enough to give LE a statement and stand there claimng he had just shot someone. He would be more concerned with his own injuries. EMTs were able to treat him right there on the scene with a band aid. Head injuries are the worst and if the EMTs didn't think he needed to be transferred to a hospital how bad could they really have been?
    Thanks! and if I might add, a 2nd ambulance had been called for GZ but was sent back after the EMTs treated him for a few minutes in the patrol car and saw there were no serious injuries to his head....

    Back to topic.....one possibility I haven't seen mentioned on the thread so far: suppose after receiving and reviewing the state's evidence, interviewing his client more and discovering the same discrepancies we have, and reviewing the witnesses statements and the 911 calls, MOM decides to stipulate to the state that it is Trayvon screaming.

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaryAnn View Post
    Not being snarky in the least, just curious but does everyone in Florida carry a weapon and why? It seems so odd to me! I can't imagine unless I was LE or in Security of some sort.
    I can personally guarantee not all of us in the gunshine state carry!


  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by TorisMom003 View Post
    While that is a great visual and something I'm sure that the defense will use in the trial there is one problem with it..........the evidence that we have seen so far does not back it up. Zimmerman shows no signs of a life or death struggle/fight at all on the police station videos. There are no blood stains on either his shirt or jacket that are visible on the police station videos. EMS released Zimmerman after a few minutes without so much as a bandage on his injuries.
    BEM: The eye witnesses back it up, and the statement given by GZ the night of the shooting does not conflict with their statements, according to the investigator for the prosecution.
    Trayvon could have very well been on top of Zimmerman because of Zimmerman refusing to release him. We have no idea if Zimmerman had his gun out at the time or not. I know that if someone had a hold of me, refused to let me go and had a gun pointed at me I would be fighting like hell to get away while screaming and pleading for my life. And I am not a 17 year old kid either.
    MOO
    BEM: So you can actually visualize the 5'8" GZ, holding onto a screaming 6'3" TM, while lying beneath him holding a gun on him? Was TM sitting there helpless with his hands in the air screaming and not trying to get away? How is that realistically or logistically feasible?

  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by vlpate View Post
    I listened to the call with the yelling last night over and over, just trying to put myself in the situation of the person yelling. The pleas are agonizing. They are from someone scared for their life. I imagine a stranger covering my nose and mouth, moving my head away to scream only to have my mouth covered again, swallowing blood from somewhere (no mistaking the taste), not knowing what damage has already been done ... feeling like I'm going in and out of consciousness ... terror will make a person pass out. Forty five seconds can seem like a lifetime when you feel like your life is about to end, everything is in slow motion. Why won't someone help? I see two people, they leave, no one is going to help, oh my God, he's going to kill me. I keep moving, trying to get away but this guy is on my chest, I can't breathe, I can't get him off me, I can only hit him in his legs, his stomach, nothing is working, HELP!! I have no choice but to shoot this guy or his going to kill me. The screaming stops.

    I tried to put myself in Trayvon's place, on top of GZ, screaming for help. I can't get past why he would be in the power position screaming for help, or why the two witnesses would find the sight of a screaming Trayvon on top of George, a terrifying scenario rather than curious. If I saw Trayvon screaming and he was on top of George, I would immediately think he was trying to get attention to help George. Like a scene from a movie when someone's been hit by a car and the bystander runs over, tries to determine if the person is alive or dead, and starts yelling for someone to call 911

    Some have said they think GZ was holding onto TM's hoodie. Sort of ridiculous when you really stop and try to visualize it - hoodies are made of stretchy material, TM would be pulling away and on his feet or on his side, moving away, not on top of GZ, screaming. If GZ's intent was to shoot TM, he would have shot him right away instead of allowing him to scream for almost a full minute, attracting attention.

    JMO
    While this scenario makes perfect sense and seems logical to some, to me, it sounds unbelievable and more than incredible. IMO the evidence does not support this version of events. And by evidence, I'm talking about GZ's stories, FT's stories, his brother's and his father's stories, the video of him at the jail, and the information about the call with Trayvon's girlfriend.

    The fight described sounds very graphic and scary, the attacks GZ's friend, dad and brother describe sound horrific and scary. A 45 second fight, where you are literally getting the life beat out of you, would definitely leave some signs of this life and death struggle. Both parties would show these signs of this life and death struggle. Let's just address that first.

    I don't know who has ever seen two men fighting before, struggling around on the ground. I've come upon it more than once, so this is my own opinion based on my observations from previous experience. Once these men have been seperated, there is disheveled clothing, hair all a mess, blood on each other's clothing, sometimes clothes are torn, sweat, heavy breathing, grass and dirt stains on clothing, sometimes people even lose shoes or pieces of clothing come off. These are not generally life and death struggles but a couple of people definitely trying to get the best of the other.

    Now...we have this video of GZ at the police station at approximately what? 30 minutes after this life or death struggle, swallowing blood, having his head slammed into the concrete over and over until he was losing conciousness? Take a good look at that footage. His clothes appear dry and clean, not torn, certainly not disheveled in any way, his shirt is tucked in for goodness sake. He does not have ONE bandage on him, not even for the little bitty cut on the back of his head. Not even a bandaid. He is handcuffed behind his back and walks with no difficulty, climbs out of a squad car, maintains his balance, which is difficult for drunks to do so I would imagine it would be difficult for someone woozy from getting his head bashed into concrete repeatedly a mere 30 minutes or so before. He does not appear to be in distress, upset or in any way showing signs that a mere 30 minutes before he was not just in a fight but in a life or death struggle.

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/georg...lance-16024475

    Ok, now why it is difficult to understand why Trayvon would be screaming. Well, that is also very simple IMO. You're absolutely right, it makes no sense to scream if you've got the upper hand, so IMO Trayvon did not have the upper hand. We will just have to agree to disagree on this front. I believe that those screams come from Trayvon. I will explain why I think John and this other witness (whose mother has said he was coerced by the way) describe seeing Trayvon on top. IMO I see the scenario as such...

    I believe that GZ exited his vehicle, followed Trayvon, saw the direction he was going and knew that he could cut him off at the cut through further down between the townhomes. He hung up with the call taker and didn't give a location to meet the officers because he had every intention of heading him off, detaining him, and presenting him to the police like a trophy. In other words, playing the cop. Problem with that is that George is NOT a police officer in a uniform and does not have any authority to detain anyone. In fact, he is a STRANGER! So....he cuts Trayvon off at the cut through. I believe that Trayvon had stopped "walking fast, running" whatever, because he believed he had lost GZ. GZ steps out, hence the question from Trayvon, why are you following me? GZ, not in a police uniform with no authority, supposedly says what are you doing here. Followed by sounds of a push or something. IMO I believe that GZ reached out to grab Trayvon to detain him. Trayvon, rightly so, is frightened by this stranger and pushes or punches GZ, GZ falls back and hits the back of his head on something that creates that small cut on the back of his head in the picture. There may be another one a little higher up but hard to see since the photo is washed out. And note that this photo was 3 minutes after a shot that ended a life and death struggle, yet there is no grass, no mud, no dirt, no debris, nothing on his jacket or his head and the blood does not appear disturbed from it's path of flow and there is nothing like grass or anything else stuck in this wet, fresh blood. Not sure how that happened, considering he supposedly was getting smashed on the sidewalk and then moved his head to the grass. I would expect to see blood smeared, grass and debris in the blood and cut due to the life and death struggle.

    http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/zimm...death-16178849

    As GZ is going to the ground he is holding onto Trayvon pulling him down to the ground as well. If you didn't know any better and hadn't seen the beginning of the altercation, maybe you would think that Trayvon "was on top" beating someone up. I'm sure during this struggling there is hollering and yelling going on, which draws some attention. Now, IMO GZ is pizzed that this kid has had the audacity to defy his authority, remember...he was already angry that the a$$holes always get away and believed that Trayvon was a f***ing punk up to no good. Now...most important...Trayvon has absolutely NO idea who this guy is! GZ is the one with all the information! All Trayvon knows is some stranger was following him, he ran, he thought he'd lost him and then all the sudden the stranger reappears and tries to question him. For WHAT? WHY? I'm sure Trayvon was concerned, that might be putting it mildly. He has every right to try to get away from this stranger, using whatever means possible.

    So...they struggle around, GZ thinks...well, I have my gun, if I pull it out maybe this kid will stop and just let me detain him. Again...GZ has all the info. Trayvon has no idea this stranger's intentions, this stranger has tried to restrict his freedom of movement, question him, and now this stranger pulls out a gun! IMO Trayvon is terrified. Now, not only has this stranger followed him, cut him off, questioned him, grabbed him, now he's pulled a gun! IMO Trayvon begins screaming for his life, terrified, struggling to get away. GZ struggles with him, he's angry that this criminal (in his mind) will not comply with his demands. His friend FT says he has fed up issues. He is fed up! He shoots Trayvon, ending the screams. He puts his hands on Trayvons back, probably pats him down, no weapons, no stolen property. Now he better come up with a story that he was in fear of his life because I think he clearly realizes that he has screwed up! Call my wife, tell her I've shot someone!

    He is a CHL holder so he knows the law. This is some dead criminal, it will all blow over. I'll just say he attacked me, I was in fear for my life and I had to shoot him. Problem was, it was an unarmed, non criminal teenager who had parents that were not going to take it lying down and fought for justice. So here we are.

    I hope I did that linking thing right. It doesn't look right to me and I can't ever seem to get it to work so please forgive me. I got the info from the Media Thread. All of the above is MY OPINION and my interpretation of what I have seen so far.

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reader View Post
    Thanks! and if I might add, a 2nd ambulance had been called for GZ but was sent back after the EMTs treated him for a few minutes in the patrol car and saw there were no serious injuries to his head....

    Back to topic.....one possibility I haven't seen mentioned on the thread so far: suppose after receiving and reviewing the state's evidence, interviewing his client more and discovering the same discrepancies we have, and reviewing the witnesses statements and the 911 calls, MOM decides to stipulate to the state that it is Trayvon screaming.
    I don't know if you're referring to something else, but I listened to the ambulance dispatch recording and it was clear to me that one of the two ambulances was turned back due to "no vitals." Imo, that would be for Trayvon. Would the ME's office (or whatever, I don't know the "lingo") have responded instead?. I did not hear or read that the second ambulance was cancelled, but may have missed that.

  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reader View Post
    Thanks! and if I might add, a 2nd ambulance had been called for GZ but was sent back after the EMTs treated him for a few minutes in the patrol car and saw there were no serious injuries to his head....

    Back to topic.....one possibility I haven't seen mentioned on the thread so far: suppose after receiving and reviewing the state's evidence, interviewing his client more and discovering the same discrepancies we have, and reviewing the witnesses statements and the 911 calls, MOM decides to stipulate to the state that it is Trayvon screaming.
    Why would he ever do that?

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reader View Post
    Thanks! and if I might add, a 2nd ambulance had been called for GZ but was sent back after the EMTs treated him for a few minutes in the patrol car and saw there were no serious injuries to his head....

    Back to topic.....one possibility I haven't seen mentioned on the thread so far: suppose after receiving and reviewing the state's evidence, interviewing his client more and discovering the same discrepancies we have, and reviewing the witnesses statements and the 911 calls, MOM decides to stipulate to the state that it is Trayvon screaming.
    I think the likeliness of that happening are about the same as the state stipulating that it was GZ screaming. In other words - 0%. I have not seen any discrepencies to indicate that it was not GZ screaming.

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