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Thread: TN - Holly Bobo, 20, Darden; believed abducted 13 April 2011 - #33

  1. #76
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    IMHO the Foto Forensics stuff is hogwash. its like people seeing Jesus'face in a bowl of spaghetti or some such. You can analize photos but its not done like this either.
    Lashelle


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  3. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carla Lashelle View Post
    Happened here in Florida and the girl was shot and killed before the cops could close in.

    http://www.baynews9.com/content/news...reached_i.html
    Matter of fact, I have a close relative who was used MANY times in drug stings. Said relative came close to meeting his/her maker a few times.

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  5. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I went through some of cranky's photos and a few things caught my I. I haven't gotten the hang of fotoforensics yet but i linked to the analysis of the photos in case someone else could understand how to figure out if they have been photoshopped. Tia and moo and I'm wondering if I am just looking for things that aren't there because there is nothing else to go on.:/

    This photo I think Holly's hair was lengthened. On the right she has one piece that does a curve that if straightened out would be too long and she has a piece in her left sleeve again that does not match the length of the rest of the hair.
    http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.ph...6bf4df5e.39903

    This photo that can't be his hand?! His arm would be so short.
    http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.ph...79f607a8.52245

    Look at the wall to the right of Karen's head. It is pink/peach where it should be white. And is the red Christmas vest photoshopped?
    http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.ph...c2503721.27977
    Thank you Yoda for looking.
    I know there are a lot of programs, but I don't use them.
    I use my eyes. I look for odd angles of limbs, length of limbs, disembodied hands to "tie in" persons added to a picture.

    On the first page of Cranky's the red background pic and the green one that were so often used by the media are both OBVIOUSLY photo edited using photoshop.

    I discussed this on another site also. A person who thought many photos looked strange, but couldn't put his finger on it asked his ps3 savvy daughter to look over the pics at Cranky's. When he asked which ones were photoshopped she said ALL of the ones he showed her.

    But, as to why this would be, I don't have an answer. I just think it's definitely worth discussing.

    I also find the lack of baby pics or adolescent pics, family pics rather unusual also.

    Now for something really strange. You remember on the recent video reenactment Karen did for the news?
    In it she is watching a video of "Holly" moonwalking?

    Well I looked up the name of the show as per the sign on the stage.
    I couldn't find it for the November 2008 year but was the name of the
    show they were doing that Spring 2012 at Scots Hill High School.
    I'll have to take a look at the video again to get the correct name in case anyone else wants to look for it.


    Believe none of what you hear, and half of what you see ~ Benjamin Franklin

    (All my post are JMO)

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  7. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by TxLady2 View Post
    Pardon me, but since when does LE use a civilian as a "plant" in a drug sting? They do not usually send a civilian, particularly a young woman, into a drug operation because that would be dangerous. Drug dealers carry guns. I've never heard of anything like this. Informants, yes... but not a plant. That's a job for an undercover cop.
    It's happened before. I recall a girl being used a part of a deal to drop charges against her and things went wrong and she was killed before police could get to her. I'm sure it's rare though. Only time I have ever heard it that happening.

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  9. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by SUNchips View Post
    MOO I still see nothing wrong with really any of the pictures that others seem to have a problem with. And I am actually very experienced in Photoshopping. Why would it matter that little things like wall color ect. is changed? Does this mean you think Holly isn't really a part of the Bobo family? That she doesn't exist at all? What would be the point in changing all these pictures and who would do such a thing?

    I must admit, that one thing I do agree with that Yoda just brought up, is regarding younger pictures of Holly. Why no baby pics? Not one picture of her as a child anywhere? I haven't seen one at least, and it is pretty weird to me actually. IMO.
    There are so many obvious anomalies that I am surprised someone experienced hasn't noticed them!

    I watched a news video featuring Whitney Duncan and she has her arm around "Holly". Except this is obviously Holly's head shopped on top of a frumpily dressed woman in bermuda shorts and pointed hush puppy dress shoe flats! The woman is a bit chunkier than I would imagine Holly to be.

    Now why was this done? I would guess that Whitney didn't have any photos of her and Holly together in recent years.


    There are all sorts of picture anomalies just like that with arms that would be extraordinarily long in order to tie her to the person in the pic.

    Like I said, I don't have the answers, but I can sure supply the questions.


    Believe none of what you hear, and half of what you see ~ Benjamin Franklin

    (All my post are JMO)

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  11. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I went through some of cranky's photos and a few things caught my I. I haven't gotten the hang of fotoforensics yet but i linked to the analysis of the photos in case someone else could understand how to figure out if they have been photoshopped. Tia and moo and I'm wondering if I am just looking for things that aren't there because there is nothing else to go on.:/

    This photo I think Holly's hair was lengthened. On the right she has one piece that does a curve that if straightened out would be too long and she has a piece in her left sleeve again that does not match the length of the rest of the hair.
    http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.ph...6bf4df5e.39903

    This photo that can't be his hand?! His arm would be so short.
    http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.ph...79f607a8.52245

    Look at the wall to the right of Karen's head. It is pink/peach where it should be white. And is the red Christmas vest photoshopped?
    http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.ph...c2503721.27977
    She has the same length hair in all the photos I've seen

    <modsnip>

    I don't see anything suspicious in the photos to be honest. The one with Drew with his arm around her does look like his arm is shorter but I think it's just the way the photo was taken.

    The Christmas photo? Why do you think the wall should be white? Some people have 2 colors in the same area. The lamp could also cause a change in the color. I have flood lights in my kitchen. The walls are white but when I turn on the lights....the walls look peachy.

    I agree with the Drew/Clint mix up by the reporters early on in the case.
    Last edited by Salem; 05-13-2012 at 12:03 PM. Reason: Removed pic for blowing margins. May resize and repost.
    Justice for Holly Bobo🎀

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  13. #82
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    Why in the world would they photo shop pictures?

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  15. #83
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    I hate to be a grumpus, but just where is this "analysis" of photos taking us?

    It might make for a very good thread if the Bobo case were given its own forum or sub-forum, there serving as a branch of the case - a very esoteric branch, but a branch nevertheless - surrounded with other case-specific, more concrete, threads (anything from What Did Clint See? to Was the Lunch Container Planted? to What Was Up with the Tony Calabrese Warrant? etc.).

    But, as it stands, it sort of serves only to help us wander down a perhaps unproductive path in terms of a general discussion thread, as here.

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  17. #84
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    Its not even real analysis. In the three photos linked there is NOTHING WRONG with them IMHO. Hair looks fine. Arm is fine its called PERSPECTIVE...
    Lashelle


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  19. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by wfgodot View Post
    I hate to be a grumpus, but just where is this "analysis" of photos taking us?

    It might make for a very good thread if the Bobo case were given its own forum or sub-forum, there serving as a branch of the case - a very esoteric branch, but a branch nevertheless - surrounded with other case-specific, more concrete, threads (anything from What Did Clint See? to Was the Lunch Container Planted? to What Was Up with the Tony Calabrese Warrant? etc.).

    But, as it stands, it sort of serves only to help us wander down a perhaps unproductive path in terms of a general discussion thread, as here.
    Well said! Just shows the frustration that sets in when there is nothing but nothing new in a case, sadly.
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  21. #86
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    Oh, almost forgot my "Holly sighting." As I was leaving Family Dollar a young blonde woman and a friend (maybe two) were coming in - young blonde close enough to a dead ringer for HB that I did stop and look twice. Features were quite similar, but face was thinner and the features thus somewhat sharper; height and weight about right. (This entire incident, including the thought, "Now what in the hell would Holly Bobo be doing in a dollar store in Miami, Oklahoma?" transpired in, oh, about ten seconds, I'd say.) And it was out the door and in the car and so to home. A bit eerie, though. Certainly hadn't been on the lookout for Holly at any point in the past year-plus. The resemblance was beyond "could pass as sisters," but not exact enough to cause any sort of "Eureka! I have found her!" moment. Close, but not quite.

  22. #87
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    I'm not sure there are any truly productive conversations to have about this case, at this point, not without more information. JMO
    It is by no means a "hot case."
    Just my opinion, of course.

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  24. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by cluciano63 View Post
    I'm not sure there are any truly productive conversations to have about this case, at this point, not without more information. JMO
    It is by no means a "hot case."
    My opinions only, no facts here:

    An overriding difficulty with resolving the Holly Bobo case is explaining the strategy of the unidentified suspect or suspects.

    If you research other solved or partially-solved (e.g. Morgan Harrington) female abduction cases that involved a vehicle, you will see that the purse (=lunchbag) and cell phone are discarded at the crime scene or as soon as possible after the abduction (say 1 to 2 miles away), or are never found. If the abductor was careless or stupid and the victim’s cell phone stayed with them and had power, then… the suspect identification and arrest came quicker (I am aware of the contra-indications of the Michelle Parker case, but this case is also somewhat atypical with regards to recovered evidence). I have seen a separation of a mile between the cell phone and the purse of the victim in some cases (this suggests that the purse was examined for money or trophies or that the crime is not what it seems to be), but overall I expect all personal belongings to be found closer together. As an example, I cite the Morgan Harrington case. In spite of all the after-the-fact “sightings” of her on some strange walkabout down the roadway, her purse and cell phone were found together in the parking lot outside the music concert and presumably this is exactly where she was grabbed. Her personal belongings were dumped on the spot.

    Holly Bobo was not abducted for her money or jewelry. The timing of the lunch bag find suggests that this could have been discarded not long after Holly’s disappearance. Holly’s cell phone is more problematic. It was found so much later, that unless it was very well hidden in the weeds, it could have been placed there days later. Using my logic cited above, Holly’s phone would have been deactivated not very long after her disappearance, but not necessarily dumped immediately. Whether Holly’s purse or pocketbook with her ID/credit cards was recovered is of great importance. Maybe the investigators could hold a press conference and tell us only what THEY DID NOT FIND and WHAT THEY DO NOT KNOW. I mean, would this simple request truly endanger the investigation?

    When females disappear of their own choice, they commonly leave ALL of their personal items at a provocative location, such as their house, in their car, in front of a cafe, etc. Or, they take all of their belongings with them.

    And then there are theories that Holly’s abductor was someone from out of town who was vending for a local event or just some opportunistic stranger passing through: this does not fit because the responsible person KNEW Holly’s schedule down to the scale of minutes, AND was intimate with the relative safety of the situation. Seriously, if you were from out of town, would you follow Holly home onto a rural property in Tennessee, wait all night next to her house, and in the morning spend 5 to 10 minutes at the kidnap site discussing politics and weather with your victim? (check my previously-posted timeline on Websleuths for the possibility of this 5 to 10 minute safety period for the perpetrator)

    I am now studying the Bible Hill area, because it is approximately mid-way between the abduction site and the lunch bag find. The precise location of the lunch bag could be meaningful and significant, totally serendipitous, OR it could have been deliberately planted in that specific location in a crude attempt to deflect suspicion towards someone else that lives nearby.

    In summary, the official details of the case and the placement of the evidence has a personal, local, insular, and naive feel to it. It seems to me that the perpetrator was someone from the immediate area who knew Holly through previous and/or present associations AND knew her daily schedule. I also have a hunch that this person has since talked or hinted about the crime, and now it is up to those he communicated with, whether or not they want to take the legal risk of going down with him or coming clean. In my judgment, the case remains solvable.

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  26. #89
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    Mr. Noatak, much of what you say applies to the Sierra Lamar case...

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171954"]SPOTLIGHT CASE CA - Sierra Lamar, 15, Santa Clara County, 16 March 2012 - #15 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

    ETA:
    "In my judgment, the case remains solvable" - I agree, and would think in time someone who knows something will spill-the-beans; friend of a friend, someone in jail looking... oh, that reward of 250K might help too...

    ETA ETA: I was looking for a link to the reward notice itself... is it just for her safe return? I would think it would be better if it was for info leading to the arrest of a perp...
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  28. #90
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    The problem is that many of us have looked at the same, scant, contradictory, and paltry "evidence" for over a year. When it comes to looking at facebook photos and claiming imaginary photo-shopping conspiracies thats a sign that things are at a DEAD END. Pretty much anything constructive has been thought of and discussed 1000 times over in the last year.
    Lashelle


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  30. #91
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    One thing about Holly's case that has stuck with me is that it's been reported that her cellphone was found as a result of a phone tip. At the time it was just called a "significant item" officially but there were reports that it was the cellphone and the AMW feature seemed to confirm that.

    Mr Noatak brought up the Morgan Harrington case, and in Morgan's case her t-shirt was found in an odd place 3 weeks after she went missing:

    http://www.readthehook.com/67960/pan...an-harringtons

    Since the t-shirt was found on a bush right next to where students regularly walk, there has been a lot of speculation that it was put there deliberately and well after her disappearance.

    Holly's phone was found 12 days after her disappearance, reportedly after a phone tip and reports have also said it was found on an industrial property (although we don't know how far off the road). I don't think it's a stretch to wonder if Holly's phone was used as some kind of message or diversion like Morgan's t-shirt may have been.

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  32. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Noatak View Post
    <snipped>
    Holly Bobo was not abducted for her money or jewelry. The timing of the lunch bag find suggests that this could have been discarded not long after Holly’s disappearance. Holly’s cell phone is more problematic. It was found so much later, that unless it was very well hidden in the weeds, it could have been placed there days later. Using my logic cited above, Holly’s phone would have been deactivated not very long after her disappearance, but not necessarily dumped immediately. Whether Holly’s purse or pocketbook with her ID/credit cards was recovered is of great importance. Maybe the investigators could hold a press conference and tell us only what THEY DID NOT FIND and WHAT THEY DO NOT KNOW. I mean, would this simple request truly endanger the investigation?

    .
    Sheriff Wyatt - Significant Find

    Missing Holly Bobo Update: Cell Phone Found Roadside
    By Robin Stanfill
    Published Apr 25, 2011

    The new evidence found during the search for Holly Bobo was her cell phone, found roadside on Hwy. 69.

    Although law enforcement are not revealing any information concerning the "significant" item found during Sunday's search, a member of the search teams has revealed the item was believed to be Holly's cell phone.

    Reportedly, the cell phone was located on side of the road on Hwy. 69 in Parsons, near Holly's father's place of employment, as well as Kolpack, a nearby factory, and the Tennessee Technology Center, where Holly was attending school.

    Decatur County Sheriff Roy Wyatt has related that law enforcement received a tip Sunday, April 24, 2011, which lead the investigation and search for Holly Bobo into Northern Decatur County. The Sheriff stated that a tip was received by phone, prompting a search of the area, during the late evening hours of Easter Sunday. In the course of the search, a new item was discovered, which law enforcement considered "significant", and apparently substantial enough for the Decatur County rescue squad and volunteer firefighters to be dispatched in order to perform a specialized foot search of the area. Law enforcement are not revealing any further information about the lead or the item found, at this time.

    <snipped>
    The phone tip is a no brainer.....LE that received the tip should just have used caller ID to identify who was phoning in the tip. Unless the phone tip was from someone well known to the investigation. It seems like every time I read a report .......there are more questions raised than answers. Maybe this why Easter was the end of any additional information being released by LE. Websleuths poster Shafer (a few posts back on the thread) pointed out Easter was the end of LE updates(well there were a few more.....but I believe they were all later identified has not accurate and information released had never taken place. MOO
    Last edited by MizStery; 05-14-2012 at 06:54 PM.

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  34. #93
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    My opinions only, no facts here:

    Concerning the Holly Bobo case, there is something else….

    Many episodes of the ID Discovery show “Fatal Encounters” reveal a common type of criminal case that I cynically refer to as ‘manifest destiny’. Let me explain. There are some people who through a series of uncharacteristic decisions, end up as innocent victims. It almost seems that they had a date with destiny and nothing could prevent the terrible outcome. There is an old parable involving a man in the desert fleeing death, but I will not bore you with it. Anyway, the concept is ancient. Events may or may not be random, but events can collectively conspire against you.

    Permit me to give you a made-up story that does not involve a crime, to explain my point about “manifest destiny”:

    1) There is a young man who works at a lumber mill in the woods.
    2) He stays up late one night and drinks more alcohol than usual. His best friend and co-worker, Jack is with him and drinks even more.
    3) The next morning the young man has a hangover, wakes up late and barely makes it to work on time.
    4) In his rush to get to work on time, he forgets his hardhat.
    5) When he shows up, the boss tells him to get a hardhat from the trailer, but he finds that the trailer door is locked.
    6) So, he goes to work without his hardhat.
    7) His daily job is peeling poles in the mill, but when he gets into the mill the section boss rings his phone.
    8) The section boss tells him that Jack did not show up for work and asks him to climb up the hill to help with felling a few trees until Jack shows up.
    9) The young man is walking up the hill, and is struck by a falling tree on his bare unprotected head and is killed.

    What is actually happening here is that with each “act of the play” the future victim is knowingly or unknowingly placing themselves in gradually increasing danger. At some point, they are dead. The optimist would say, “well he should not have drank so much” or “he should not have let his best friend get so bombed” or “he should have told his boss that the trailer was locked” or “he should not have climbed the hill without his hardhat”. But the cynic says “the die was cast in advance”.

    In contrast with this imaginary storyline, the die was NOT cast in advance in the Holly Bobo case. She did nothing that I am aware of that was uncharacteristic, leading up to the time of her abduction. She was NOT engaging in progressively risky behavior or exposing herself to progressively increasing danger. There is no evidence of so-called ‘manifest destiny’. To me this means that the crime was either one of unpredictable passion AND/OR was conspired on a fairly short timetable.

    Sleuth On!

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  36. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Noatak View Post
    My opinions only, no facts here:

    Concerning the Holly Bobo case, there is something else….

    Many episodes of the ID Discovery show “Fatal Encounters” reveal a common type of criminal case that I cynically refer to as ‘manifest destiny’. Let me explain. There are some people who through a series of uncharacteristic decisions, end up as innocent victims. It almost seems that they had a date with destiny and nothing could prevent the terrible outcome. There is an old parable involving a man in the desert fleeing death, but I will not bore you with it. Anyway, the concept is ancient. Events may or may not be random, but events can collectively conspire against you.

    Permit me to give you a made-up story that does not involve a crime, to explain my point about “manifest destiny”:

    1) There is a young man who works at a lumber mill in the woods.
    2) He stays up late one night and drinks more alcohol than usual. His best friend and co-worker, Jack is with him and drinks even more.
    3) The next morning the young man has a hangover, wakes up late and barely makes it to work on time.
    4) In his rush to get to work on time, he forgets his hardhat.
    5) When he shows up, the boss tells him to get a hardhat from the trailer, but he finds that the trailer door is locked.
    6) So, he goes to work without his hardhat.
    7) His daily job is peeling poles in the mill, but when he gets into the mill the section boss rings his phone.
    8) The section boss tells him that Jack did not show up for work and asks him to climb up the hill to help with felling a few trees until Jack shows up.
    9) The young man is walking up the hill, and is struck by a falling tree on his bare unprotected head and is killed.

    What is actually happening here is that with each “act of the play” the future victim is knowingly or unknowingly placing themselves in gradually increasing danger. At some point, they are dead. The optimist would say, “well he should not have drank so much” or “he should not have let his best friend get so bombed” or “he should have told his boss that the trailer was locked” or “he should not have climbed the hill without his hardhat”. But the cynic says “the die was cast in advance”.

    In contrast with this imaginary storyline, the die was NOT cast in advance in the Holly Bobo case. She did nothing that I am aware of that was uncharacteristic, leading up to the time of her abduction. She was NOT engaging in progressively risky behavior or exposing herself to progressively increasing danger. There is no evidence of so-called ‘manifest destiny’. To me this means that the crime was either one of unpredictable passion AND/OR was conspired on a fairly short timetable.

    Sleuth On!
    All JMO.
    The very last sentence could possibly be true, and if so, the "AND" would be my vote, and I would even expand this a little further as shown belowi.

    In a previous post, you also mentioned this:

    "In summary, the official details of the case and the placement of the evidence has a personal, local, insular, and naive feel to it. It seems to me that the perpetrator was someone from the immediate area who knew Holly through previous and/or present associations AND knew her daily schedule.""

    I definitely agree with this and especially that the case had a "naive" feel to it. If we expand upon this thought, lets suppose the perp was someone close to her that decided to talk with her before her class that day, and lets suppose a serious argument / fight occurred which caused her to fall and maybe hit her head or something. The person could have walked her back to their vehicle and maybe was even going to take her to the hospital or something. Then, lets suppose she suddenly passes away in the vehicle or on the way to the vehicle. Panic would surely set in, and the person maybe was not thinking rationally, so rather than just calling for help, maybe they panicked and left her somewhere, because they felt they caused her fall.

    Now, if something like this happened, that person would surely see the news about how everyone thought a random kidnapper took her, so maybe they used that news to come up with the idea to plant some of her things to help that theory along. Then, as time went on, this person could not believe how the story grew and took on a life of its own about a kidnapper. So they were at the point of no return, and maybe they realized there was still her phone in his vehicle, so they dumped the phone on that last Easter day and made a phone call tip to be sure they found the phone. That last tip about the phone had a very "naive" feel to it, almost amaturish feel to it.

    This is just one of the possiblities that could have happened that day, and when someone panics, they can do strange things. I keep wondering that maybe the news media about a "kidnapper" began to drive itself and the person who really knew what happened maybe was using the news stories, and maybe they planted the evidence to help it along.

    Anyway, I totally agree that this case has a very "naive" feel to it, which is why I think this could be a possiblity. I totally realize there are many other possiblities, and that is what makes this case so hard. There is no one theory that we can pin down yet.

    All JMO of course.
    Last edited by Hatfield; 05-15-2012 at 10:28 AM.

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  38. #95
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    In the very beginning of this case, I had a "gut feeling" about what happened, and since then, I have read everything, watched every video clip, and read all the boards I could find, to find a theory different from my original thought. Every scenario imaginable has run through my head, from human trafficking to fatal attraction, but I still always come back to the old "gut feeling" of it being close to home. Just my opinion only!

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  40. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by MizStery View Post
    SNIPPED.....The phone tip is a no brainer.....LE that received the tip should just have used caller ID to identify who was phoning in the tip.
    This is a very good point. Surely, LE could have pulled all phone records from literally everyone in the town for that 1-2 minute time period to identify who called in the tip. So, LE should have been able to identify who called in the tip. The only way that they could not identify them, was if the person was using one of those throw-away phones, which is possible, but unlikely IMO.

    I am kind of thinking that LE knows who called in the tip, and maybe that is why all searches stopped at that point. It is possible that LE and maybe even the family knows who called in the tip, and maybe this goes back to having some kind of personal "bond" or "empathy" with the person.

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  42. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by nosyone View Post
    In the very beginning of this case, I had a "gut feeling" about what happened, and since then, I have read everything, watched every video clip, and read all the boards I could find, to find a theory different from my original thought. Every scenario imaginable has run through my head, from human trafficking to fatal attraction, but I still always come back to the old "gut feeling" of it being close to home. Just my opinion only!
    That's my feeling too (perp being close to home).... I also think LE has an idea of who the perp might be, but that person has a very good alibi, thanks to family or friends, an so LE has to wait...
    Used to say, "100 years from now, my problems won't matter; now-a-days it's more like 25 years!

    Rule-of-Three (click to visit blog)

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  44. #98
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    I think the perp was a local young man that Holly knew. I think she was startled to find him there when she went out to her car. Perhaps, in the surprise of the moment, she was injured and the perp became frightened and took her.

    I do believe the case is solvable....but not by us, with what little we actually know. I still would like to hear all three 911 calls. Those would help tremendously.

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  46. #99
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    I have noticed the conversation has revolved around Holly's abduction being "naive" of sorts, a plan hatched at the last minute due to unforeseen circumstances--perhaps by someone she knew or was acquainted with.

    My question would be, it would seem this kind of last minute act of desperation would lead to a very "sloppy" and amateurish cover-up, why has she not been found? Furthermore if it was someone in her circle of familiars ,would that not be reason to think it would have been solved by now, because this person would have been on the radar from the beginning, right?

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  48. #100
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    I don't think it was a crime of opportunity; I think it was planned - at least roughed out beforehand.

    I guess much hinges on our old familiar discussion re: whether Clint was supposed to be home or not.

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