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Thread: FBI considering hate crime charges against Zimmerman #1

  1. #76
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    "profiling" occurs normally in all humans. On another thread a poster relates that many AA do not report things to police because of distrust. In essence they "profile" the police in their area...based on things other police have done.

    We are composed of responses to our particular enviorment.

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  3. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by stmarysmead View Post
    Great post JBean...and I love a good debate.

    Here is my issue with your premise. GZ was reacting to the crime statistics of previous incidents when he chose to watch TM closer than he might have watched you. To me, this is common sense and if the majority of incidents in that condo complex involved teenage Black males...it is THEIR fault that other innocent young men are watched with more suspicion...NOT the fault of residents trying to keep safe. This a a multi-racial neighborhood of people working and trying to live in peace. They have rights to try to protect themselves. If descriptions of numerous criminals are similar...unfortunately, a stranger of THAT description WILL BE watched. I have no problem with that logic. Do you? Should the neighbors have followed old Chinese men to make it "fair?"

    I was once "profiled" because I was "dressed up" and looked like a group of people going door to door prosletyzing. TM WOULD NOT have been watched by that police officier. But he had reason based on factual data and observation to watch me.

    Had the convenience store been plaqued by thefts and incidents with young teenage Black males? If not, and I do not think this was the case...of course, he had ZERO reason to worry about anyone who looked like TM. Unfortunately, any "profiling" done to TM was the result of the descriptions of perpetrators of previous crimes iN THAT CONDO COMPLEX. That makes "watching" TM sad but reasonable. If old blonde women have committed the majority of crime in my neighborhood...of course. I as a stranger, fitting that description...will be watched more closely. Why should that be a federal crime of "profiling?" It's a natural human reaction to factual statistics.

    As for the hoodie....that was a media dust-up.
    BBM

    Weren't the crimes committed by young black males solved? I thought they were arrested?
    .............Any man's death diminishes me because I am
    involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
    it tolls for thee. . . .
    from Meditation 17
    by John Donne

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  5. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by stmarysmead View Post
    "profiling" occurs normally in all humans. On another thread a poster relates that many AA do not report things to police because of distrust. In essence they "profile" the police in their area...based on things other police have done.

    We are composed of responses to our particular enviorment.
    And we know that the FBI often profiles killers by evidence they get from the victims in order to catch them. jmo
    A lie will go round the world before the truth gets its pants on - Charles Spurgeon

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  7. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by stmarysmead View Post
    Great post JBean...and I love a good debate.

    Here is my issue with your premise. GZ was reacting to the crime statistics of previous incidents when he chose to watch TM closer than he might have watched you. To me, this is common sense and if the majority of incidents in that condo complex involved teenage Black males...it is THEIR fault that other innocent young men are watched with more suspicion...NOT the fault of residents trying to keep safe. This a a multi-racial neighborhood of people working and trying to live in peace. They have rights to try to protect themselves. If descriptions of numerous criminals are similar...unfortunately, a stranger of THAT description WILL BE watched. I have no problem with that logic. Do you? Should the neighbors have followed old Chinese men to make it "fair?"

    I was once "profiled" because I was "dressed up" and looked like a group of people going door to door prosletyzing. TM WOULD NOT have been watched by that police officier. But he had reason based on factual data and observation to watch me.

    Had the convenience store been plaqued by thefts and incidents with young teenage Black males? If not, and I do not think this was the case...of course, he had ZERO reason to worry about anyone who looked like TM. Unfortunately, any "profiling" done to TM was the result of the descriptions of perpetrators of previous crimes. That makes "watching" TM sad but reasonable. If old blonde women have committed the majority of crime in my neighborhood...of course. I as a stranger, fitting that description...will be watched more closely. Why should that be a federal crime of "profiling?" It's a natural human reaction to factual statistics.

    As for the hoodie....that was a media dust-up.
    So I think we can agree that he was profiled and that is step 1 in the FBI charges,imo. They have to determine how he was 'watched and profiled" because the boy ended up dead. They may determine it was not a hate crime- I don't know-but they have got to investigate it and I don't understand the outrage at all. It's an investigation and I would be peeved if my son died under similar circumstances and FBI did not investigate.

    I have 2 questions for everyone.

    Do you think, and please be honest, if you had a 28 yo son (and I do) would you advise him to do everything that George did that night? I do not even mean with hindsight and knowing what we know, I mean in general would you tell your son to do exactly what George did?
    All circumstances identical.


    My next question is do you think in your heart of hearts that Trayvon just attacked George Zimmerman for no reason at all-out of the blue-completely unprovoked? Just saw George and started beating on him?

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  9. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Fessel View Post
    BBM

    Weren't the crimes committed by young black males solved? I thought they were arrested?
    But the effect of those crimes remain...in the same way that suspicion of police remains in the AA community even to those who have never experienced it themselves. The fact that the arrest of ONE Black teenager did not stop the NEXT, and the Next...from coming in and targeting that neighborhood...meant that the neighbors could not say "problem solved" with one. two, three arrests.

    The problem continued. It is the fault of those who harrassed this neighborhood that TM was viewed with suspicion. Can anyone say that AA neghbors, particularly any who had break-ins...would not have "watched"this stranger in their area that night?

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  11. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Fessel View Post
    BBM

    Weren't the crimes committed by young black males solved? I thought they were arrested?
    I think they did. Some of those calls were for suspects that "got" away but it's possible those young black men may have been staying with a resident at that time. It's hard to say for sure. jmo
    A lie will go round the world before the truth gets its pants on - Charles Spurgeon

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  13. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Fessel View Post
    BBM

    Weren't the crimes committed by young black males solved? I thought they were arrested?
    I don't know if they were arrested, but assuming they also were minors, they would have been home in time for dinner -- possibly even if they weren't minors. jmo

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    Quote Originally Posted by stmarysmead View Post
    But the effect of those crimes remain...in the same way that suspicion of police remains in the AA community even to those who have never experienced it themselves. The fact that the arrest of ONE Black teenager did not stop the NEXT, and the Next...from coming in and targeting that neighborhood...meant that the neighbors could not say "problem solved" with one. two, three arrests.

    The problem continued. It is the fault of those who harrassed this neighborhood that TM was viewed with suspicion. Can anyone say that AA neghbors, particularly any who had break-ins...would not have "watched"this stranger in their area that night?
    I believe the person who was breaking into the apartments actually lived there when the arrest was made and had been tied to other breakins. Was there any proof that they were coming in from outside? I would think you need a passcode to get your car/truck in and out of that community. Not going to steal much while you are on foot. jmo
    A lie will go round the world before the truth gets its pants on - Charles Spurgeon

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  16. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBean View Post
    So I think we can agree that he was profiled and that is step 1 in the FBI charges,imo. They have to determine how he was 'watched and profiled" because the boy ended up dead. They may determine it was not a hate crime- I don't know-but they have got to investigate it and I don't understand the outrage at all. It's an investigation and I would be peeved if my son died under similar circumstances and FBI did not investigate.

    I have 2 questions for everyone.

    Do you think, and please be honest, if you had a 28 yo son (and I do) would you advise him to do everything that George did that night? I do not even mean with hindsight and knowing what we know, I mean in general would you tell your son to do exactly what George did?
    All circumstances identical.


    My next question is do you think in your heart of hearts that Trayvon just attacked George Zimmerman for no reason at all-out of the blue-completely unprovoked? Just saw George and started beating on him?
    1. No. Being honest. I know from being married to a police officer I would have advised GZ to stay in his car. Once it's called in it is a police matter and you jeopardize the safety of the police officer and innocent people by following someone who you believe is dangerous enough to call LE.

    2. I do not think TM just attacked GZ. Honestly I think GZ was thinking this kid is up to no good and TM was thinking this guy is up to no good and it went out of control from there. I don't think GZ ever intended to kill TM, I think he wanted to detain TM until LE arrived and TM would have none of it.

    JMO
    A lie will go round the world before the truth gets its pants on - Charles Spurgeon

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  18. #85
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    No, I don't believe he was "profiled" in any crimonal sense. I believed he was "watched"for good reason.

    Yes, I would tell my son to do what GZ did. I really cannot understand where he did anything wrong...unless there is a witness that he threw the first punch. These two individuals should have been able to have exchaged wors without physical confrontation.

    I think, according to the girlfriends testimony...that TM was at one point outside the place he was staying. He had an opportunity to go inside.

    I think he was bored, peeved (for good reason) and he had a recent history of "problems." That is why he was THERE that night. Didn't his Mother say he was there so Dad could parent him after that third suspension in just months from his second school THAT YEAR? TM was a teenager, not a bad kid...but one with some issues . I think he did throw the first punch...and had GZ on the ground...and continued to pound GZ's head into the ground when he had a choice to also STOP. That is teenage hormones more than the drugs in his system.

    But the presence of marijuana does have significance. An article today says the last suspension was for possessing amarijuana bag at school. To buy an illegal drug , one must do business with drug dealers. TM was breaking the law by buying from those profiting from illegal trade. His family would not want him having these associations. But...That is an insight into his teenage "risk-taking." So yes, I can see him risking a fight with this annoying guy who was watching him...instead of just...going inside.

    Inn my heart of hearts, I think this was just a tragedy. NO one should have died. And no one needs to be persecuted by media, politicans, or Hate Groups ALLOWED to issue death rewards for MURDER.

    And no one should be prosecuted for stopping their own savage beating...or watching someone who unfortunately fit the description of those most frequently committing crimes in that neighborhood.

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  20. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karmady View Post
    I don't know if they were arrested, but assuming they also were minors, they would have been home in time for dinner -- possibly even if they weren't minors. jmo
    I believe the one arrested who lived there had priors and was on probation. I think he went bye-bye. jmo
    A lie will go round the world before the truth gets its pants on - Charles Spurgeon

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  22. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by stmarysmead View Post
    But the effect of those crimes remain...in the same way that suspicion of police remains in the AA community even to those who have never experienced it themselves. The fact that the arrest of ONE Black teenager did not stop the NEXT, and the Next...from coming in and targeting that neighborhood...meant that the neighbors could not say "problem solved" with one. two, three arrests.

    The problem continued. It is the fault of those who harrassed this neighborhood that TM was viewed with suspicion. Can anyone say that AA neghbors, particularly any who had break-ins...would not have "watched"this stranger in their area that night?
    I think 3 black teenagers were arrested. Is there any evidence that the unsolved crimes were from blacks? This community was not under siege from outside black forces. It was under siege from a renegade NWC who's wrong criminal profiling led to the murder of a 17 yr old kid according to the state of Florida.

    Watched maybe, got out of their car on a rainy night and followed with a loaded gun when it would have been just as easy and smarter to keep driving in his car to the end of the sidewalk and wait for the person and the police?
    .............Any man's death diminishes me because I am
    involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
    it tolls for thee. . . .
    from Meditation 17
    by John Donne

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  24. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by LambChop View Post
    I believe the person who was breaking into the apartments actually lived there when the arrest was made and had been tied to other breakins. Was there any proof that they were coming in from outside? I would think you need a passcode to get your car/truck in and out of that community. Not going to steal much while you are on foot. jmo
    My daughter lived in a condo like this. The gate was a joke. And criminals DO walk in...break in...grab anything easy and run. People live in fear of suprizing them in the process.

  25. #89
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    TM's body was found 70 yards from the condo where he was staying. jmo
    A lie will go round the world before the truth gets its pants on - Charles Spurgeon

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  27. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by stmarysmead View Post
    My daughter lived in a condo like this. The gate was a joke. And criminals DO walk in...break in...grab anything easy and run. People live in fear of suprizing them in the process.
    I do too with no problems. If crime were a problem I'd have an alarm system installed rather than chasing people down. It would seem so much easier. jmo
    A lie will go round the world before the truth gets its pants on - Charles Spurgeon

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  29. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Fessel View Post
    I have seen that on media shows too.
    I mentioned previously, I don't watch tv, and certainly not any show having to do with the juvenile justice system -- although it wouldn't surprise me to learn that there is one.

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  31. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by stmarysmead View Post
    No, I don't believe he was "profiled" in any crimonal sense. I believed he was "watched"for good reason.

    Yes, I would tell my son to do what GZ did. I really cannot understand where he did anything wrong...unless there is a witness that he threw the first punch. These two individuals should have been able to have exchaged wors without physical confrontation.

    I think, according to the girlfriends testimony...that TM was at one point outside the place he was staying. He had an opportunity to go inside.

    I think he was bored, peeved (for good reason) and he had a recent history of "problems." That is why he was THERE that night. Didn't his Mother say he was there so Dad could parent him after that third suspension in just months from his second school THAT YEAR? TM was a teenager, not a bad kid...but one with some issues . I think he did throw the first punch...and had GZ on the ground...and continued to pound GZ's head into the ground when he had a choice to also STOP. That is teenage hormones more than the drugs in his system.

    But the presence of marijuana does have significance. An article today says the last suspension was for possessing amarijuana bag at school. To buy an illegal drug , one must do business with drug dealers. TM was breaking the law by buying from those profiting from illegal trade. His family would not want him having these associations. But...That is an insight into his teenage "risk-taking." So yes, I can see him risking a fight with this annoying guy who was watching him...instead of just...going inside.

    Inn my heart of hearts, I think this was just a tragedy. NO one should have died. And no one needs to be persecuted by media, politicans, or Hate Groups ALLOWED to issue death rewards for MURDER.

    And no one should be prosecuted for stopping their own savage beating...or watching someone who unfortunately fit the description of those most frequently committing crimes in that neighborhood.
    Thanks for your honest answer. I don't follow most of the logic, but sincerely appreciate the post. Not implying I am right and you are wrong, just saying our thought processes are so far apart I cannot relate or identify with what you are saying in much of this.
    Exception- I do completely agree with the tragedy part though!

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  33. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by LambChop View Post
    I do too with no problems. If crime were a problem I'd have an alarm system installed rather than chasing people down. It would seem so much easier. jmo
    That assumes that people can afford the monitoring charges. This was not an affluent condo area. Why should they have to incur expense...this is tough times for many. This punishes those just trying to live decent lives.

    This from another thread..the condo newletter:

    "We have recently experienced an increased incidence of crime within thecommunity including three break-ins in the past month, which is why having residents committed to being members of the Neighborhood Watch and reporting suspicious activities is so important. We must send a message that we will not tolerate this in our community! "

    THREE breakins in one MONTH! Where these all the 3 different Black teens you mention arrested? Is watchfulness after an outbreak like this so hard to understand? Is frustration so hard to undersstand? This did not occur in a vaccum.

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  35. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBean View Post
    So I think we can agree that he was profiled and that is step 1 in the FBI charges,imo. They have to determine how he was 'watched and profiled" because the boy ended up dead. They may determine it was not a hate crime- I don't know-but they have got to investigate it and I don't understand the outrage at all. It's an investigation and I would be peeved if my son died under similar circumstances and FBI did not investigate.

    I have 2 questions for everyone.

    Do you think, and please be honest, if you had a 28 yo son (and I do) would you advise him to do everything that George did that night? I do not even mean with hindsight and knowing what we know, I mean in general would you tell your son to do exactly what George did?
    All circumstances identical.


    My next question is do you think in your heart of hearts that Trayvon just attacked George Zimmerman for no reason at all-out of the blue-completely unprovoked? Just saw George and started beating on him?
    These are interesting questions so I asked my 2 early 20 year olds and 4 of their friends what they would of done and here is a summary of their answers.

    TM ran so yes they would of got out of the vehicle and followed to see where he went. If he was afraid he would of gone straight home.

    They as well had no problem believing that TM would hit GZ. As they pointed out to me it had recently happened to 2 of them as they walked through a parking lot on their way to the movies.

    All 6 believe that TM ran because he had something to "hide" not out of fear and wondered if the SPD found anything "dropped" or "hidden" or did they even bother to look. They believe that TM came back to get whatever he had dropped or hid.

    None of them felt it was racial. To them it was not about the colour of skin.

    The one thing they had the greatest issue with was that not ONE person went to HELP as no one wanted to get "involved".

    This is the result of my mini survey.

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  37. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allusonz View Post
    These are interesting questions so I asked my 2 early 20 year olds and 4 of their friends what they would of done and here is a summary of their answers.

    TM ran so yes they would of got out of the vehicle and followed to see where he went. If he was afraid he would of gone straight home.
    snipped by jbean for response
    Your answer is to a different question than the one I posed. Not what would your kids do- what would you advise them to do.

    My point is that i would never advise any of my kids, friends, or personal acquaintences to arm themselves and follow people. No good is going to come from it. I would advise them to get involved responsibly, ie calling police etc., but not to intervene.

    But if they choose to do so, then they need to accept the responsibility of what comes with it and what their actions add to a potentially volatile situation. Sort of like these stories you hear about store clerks that take it upon themselves to stop would be thieves and then are promptly fired for trying to "help".There is a reason for the protocol and if they want to go beyond then they have to understand they are adding a NEW dynamic to the situation that they alone are responsible for and it may escalate it to a point that no one wants. Case in point- Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman.

    I thik have led us away from the topic at hand so if we can dovetail this back to FBI hate crime charges that would probably keep us all in good favor with the hard working moderators in this forum.
    JMHO of course.

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  39. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by LynnM View Post
    I listened to that call and I did not conclude that TM approached the vehicle in a threatening manner. When I listened to the call I thought Zimmerman was making a big dramatic deal about nothing.
    How did you conclude it was "a big dramatic deal about nothing?"

    If you were a police dispatcher and a caller initially described a "suspicious" person at a distance and then said "now he is staring at me" and then said, "he's coming to check me out", and "there's something wrong with him", and "I don't know what his deal is", and then interrupted you to say "how long till you get an officer here?" wouldn't that concern you?

    IMO it would be grossly negligent to consider that big deal about nothing.

    It is not obvious to me that the girlfriend is lying.

    Teenagers dawdle, especially when they are talking on the phone to a girl and don't want others (like BG's son) to overhear them.
    She said TM was "rushing" to get home, the opposite of dawdling.

    The bigger issue is the chase she describes between TM and GZ as there is just no way to make sense of what she is stating if one looks at a map and the exact times involved. How does a running TM with a headstart not escape GZ? How is TM still discussing being pursued minutes later when his home was a twenty second run from where he started?

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  41. #97
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    I have to say I did find page 26 of the docs to be possibly revealing? This was Zimmerman's 5th call about suspicious black males in his neighborhood. The report said all his previous suspicious persons calls identified black males as the subjects.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/S...-by-prosecutor

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  43. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBean View Post
    I have to say I did find page 26 of the docs to be possibly revealing? This was Zimmerman's 5th call about suspicious black males in his neighborhood. The report said all his previous suspicious persons calls identified black males as the subjects.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/S...-by-prosecutor
    The simple answer is the truth: were Black males the most frequent perpetrators? There were several crimes in one month. Three Black Males arrested. Was it truly unreasnable to be suspicious of Black male juveniles? The crime statistics for that condo area will tell the tale. One AA resident was reported stating that Black juveniles were the problem. If that is true...then his suspisions were well founded in reality.

    We don't like to speak of this, I know. We do not like to offend each other by saying this. But we cannot make GZ bear the burden of this "racist" or "profiling" accusation without telling the truth about crime in that area. If sadly, a great perponderence of crime is the result of young Black males...GZ was being rational and practical to WATCH GZ.

    If it was all White crime...or Whites a majority of the crime problem, then you have a point.

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    By the way, Sanford has a poor safety record for crimes...3 out of a possible 100. One is more likely to be a crime victim here than generally in the State of Fla. This spaks to me of the weariness of Sanford residents of all races trying to live unaccosted by crime. IMO this gives GZ even more reason to be out there WATCHING...trying to protect his multi-racial neighbors. He was not some White guy gunning for non-whites in a white gated community. He is a mixed race volunteer in a community that is plaqued by crime.

    http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/fl/sanford/crime/

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    Quote Originally Posted by JBean View Post
    I have to say I did find page 26 of the docs to be possibly revealing? This was Zimmerman's 5th call about suspicious black males in his neighborhood. The report said all his previous suspicious persons calls identified black males as the subjects.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/S...-by-prosecutor
    And it doesn't say if those black males were arrested or GZ just believed them to be "suspicious".
    "In matters of truth and justice, there is no difference between large and small problems, for issues concerning the treatment of people are all the same."
    ~~~ Albert Einstein

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