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  1. #46
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    <modsnip>

    I totally disagree with your premise but the question to me is really what will be the basis of any hate crime charge against GZ?

    I think it will be more based on how GZ targeted Trayvon as suspicious and 'up to no good', 'on drugs', etc., simply because he did not know him from the neighborhood and he was black. Then he took the steps he did to follow and interfere with Trayvon's very innocent walk to his temporary home, making no attempt to identify himself or explain why he was following, and to ask in a civil and non-threatening way, who TM was and where he was going. These steps GZ took based on his incorrect profiling of TM led to the confrontation and unnecessary death.
    Last edited by ynotdivein; 05-16-2012 at 09:56 PM. Reason: quoted snipped post


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  3. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reader View Post
    I totally disagree with your premise but the question to me is really what will be the basis of any hate crime charge against GZ?

    I think it will be more based on how GZ targeted Trayvon as suspicious and 'up to no good', 'on drugs', etc., simply because he did not know him from the neighborhood and he was black. Then he took the steps he did to follow and interfere with Trayvon's very innocent walk to his temporary home, making no attempt to identify himself or explain why he was following, and to ask in a civil and non-threatening way, who TM was and where he was going. These steps GZ took based on his incorrect profiling of TM led to the confrontation and unnecessary death.
    I don't see what the hate crime is in what you typed. The "and he was black" is similar to saying "oh, and he just happened to be black" - which does not make it a hate crime. For it to have been a hate crime Mr. Zimmerman must have done everything specifically because he was black. As we know from Mr. Zimmerman's 911 call, he was unsure of Mr. Martin's race initially. When the dispatcher asked he said "He looks black" then he confirmed it when Mr. Martin started walking toward his vehicle.
    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
    “In all debates, let truth be thy aim, not victory, or an unjust interest.” - William Penn


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  5. #48
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    911 tape or not, I highly doubt the FBI will go for a hate crimes charge on just that, or his profiling.

    For what it's worth, despite all the negative things I have said about Zimmerman, I don't have any particular reason to believe that he was a racist. His fans and many of his defenders? No question. The police who were supposed to investigate? No question in my mind. But Zimmerman? Who knows.

    Personally, as I have said from the beginning, after listening to the 9-11 call I believe Zimmerman was not the nobel watchmen some are making him out to be. I believe that virtually everything he described in the call was a lie. I believe he was setting up his alibi for the shoot, and that he fully intended to gun the kid down right there on the street -- only Trayvon ran before his justified shoot could happen. I believe he targetted Trayvon, not because he personally hates blacks, but because he believed that the Sanford police wouldn't bother to investigate a dead black kid. And, as it turns out, he was correct.

    All that is just my opinion. However, it is not invented out of whole cloth. Zimmerman went through that call like a pilot checking off a pre-flight checklist. One thing after another, in a steady escalation of perceived threat.

    He establishes the reasons for his suspicions
    He states that Trayvon is on drugs
    He states Trayvon is messed up, something is DEFINATELY wrong with him
    He states Trayvon is looking at him
    He states Trayvon is heading his way
    He states Trayvon has his hands in his waistband
    He states Trayvon has something in his hands and he doesn't know what it is!
    He begs them to send help quickly

    Then Trayvon runs. This guy, who George has painted as a menacing gangbanger with a weapon, RUNS. And George, who has been almost giddy with excitement is suddenly furious. Trayvon wrecked his plans. And George completely forgets the entire scenario he has just so carefully suggested to the police. He forgets that Trayvon is supposed to be a drugged up black teenage gangbanger with a weapon.

    And I suspect that the video from the clubhouse is going to bear this out. I think it will show that Trayvon wasn't doing anything suspicious at all. I think we will see a kid going along minding his own business. Hopefully we will see when George decided to leave his vehicle and the path he actually took.

    All my opinion of course.
    DISCLAIMER: The above is my OPINION only. Unless stated otherwise, I neither claim nor imply any inside knowledge or expert opinion about any subject I happen to be discussing. The reader assumes full responsibility for any conclusions my writing might cause them to reach. Warning: may cause drowsiness, do not operate heavy machinery while reading


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  7. #49
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    <modsnip>

    Hearing can be surprisingly subjective and everyone will mishear things sometimes, and it is hard to make out what he says exactly, but I honestly think if one were to do a research experiment with hundred people who knew nothing about the case after hearing the audio not one of them would say it was co*ns. Is there anyone who didn't already think GZ was guilty when they heard it?
    Last edited by ynotdivein; 05-16-2012 at 09:58 PM. Reason: quoted snipped post


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  9. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alecto View Post
    Hearing can be surprisingly subjective and everyone will mishear things sometimes, and it is hard to make out what he says exactly, but I honestly think if one were to do a research experiment with hundred people who knew nothing about the case after hearing the audio not one of them would say it was co*ns. Is there anyone who didn't already think GZ was guilty when they heard it?
    I can vouch for this. My recollection of what it was is stated up-thread. When I listened to the 911 call I was just getting into the case and had no indication of guilt/innocence.
    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
    “In all debates, let truth be thy aim, not victory, or an unjust interest.” - William Penn


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  11. #51
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    Whoa whoa whoa.

    Slow down here.

    This thread is about the FBI *considering* hate crime charges against GZ.

    OK to post whether you think those charges have merit or would stick. (Or not.)

    Not OK to post speculation or accusations about other WSers.

    Got it?
    You can hold back from the suffering of the world. You have free permission to do so and it is in accordance with your nature.
    But perhaps this very holding back is the one suffering you could have avoided.
    Franz Kafka

    Be not simply good. Be good for something.
    HDT


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  13. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reader View Post
    I totally disagree with your premise but the question to me is really what will be the basis of any hate crime charge against GZ?

    I think it will be more based on how GZ targeted Trayvon as suspicious and 'up to no good', 'on drugs', etc., simply because he did not know him from the neighborhood and he was black. Then he took the steps he did to follow and interfere with Trayvon's very innocent walk to his temporary home, making no attempt to identify himself or explain why he was following, and to ask in a civil and non-threatening way, who TM was and where he was going. These steps GZ took based on his incorrect profiling of TM led to the confrontation and unnecessary death.
    We will find out more with the discovery files and the 7-11 and clubhouse video will be particularly helpful but this what I've read so far.

    1)TM left 7-11 at 6:30 at the latest and it was 0.8 miles away. If he had just walked straight home he would have made it back before GZ even saw him.

    2)It's not till 58 seconds into GZ's 911 call that he says TM is coming towards him. Looking at a map of the area and where GZ was parked and the clubhouse distance TM should have already been passing GZ at that point if he had been walking at a regular speed. Maybe TM wasn't walking home at that point and had taken shelter under the awning by the clubhouse (as Crump seemed to suggest) and there is certainly nothing at all criminal about that but what happens next is very important.

    3)TM focuses on GZ and approaches his vehicle. Keep in mind that GZ's call starts off with TM being (likely) more then 200 feet away and GZ didn't anticipate TM walking up on his vehicle. Now maybe GZ is really so dumb that he didn't realize he parked directly in the path of the person he was watching but it's also possible that what he described was accurate and that TM had come to check him out.

    4)According to GZ TM not only approaches his vehicle he even circles it. That's some pretty weird behavior and IMO you can hear GZ getting nervous in his call. Basically, at that moment GZ's suspicions were validated. Something was kind of "wrong" with TM. If I thought someone was watching me like GZ was doing I might give them a hard look as I walked past their vehicle but I sure as he'll would never circle it.

    5)It's only after that happens that GZ starts swearing (******* and ****ing punks) and he was understandably upset.

    6)When TM then later runs he has a head start in both distance and time. Realistically GZ had no chance of catching a fleeing TM in an equal start foot race. Unless GZ had delusions of being a track star he likely just wanted to get to location where he could see where TM went and was just trying keep his eyes on TM to report where TM was running to exactly.

    7)The location of the fight is impossible to reconcile with TM wanting to get away from GZ. (That would require GZ getting in front of TM and chasing him back up towards where he parked but how would GZ get in front of TM in the first place?)

    8)There is considerable evidence that it was GZ screaming for help and he has injuries consistent with the screams that sound like a person being injured. An eyewitness supports that it was GZ screaming for help as well. We know the screams for help went on 44 seconds plus however long the first caller took to hear screams and then call 911 about it so I think it is fair to say the screaming went on for well over a minute. Police at the scene reported GZ said, "I kept yelling for help, but nobody would help me."

    I don't see how anyone can get a hate crime out of this at all.

    When the FBI/DOJ first got involved congresswoman Corrine Brown sent a letter to AG holder stating that TM was "half the size" of GZ at a time when there was a media firestorm with people insisting that GZ had no injuries, that GZ used a racial slur, and that TM had been begging/whining for life for an extended period of time before GZ shot him. ALL of those points except the last one have already been proven wrong and the last one is very close to being proven already too since those screams indicate injury and there is eyewitness that says it was GZ screaming. So there is a really interesting civil rights angle to this case, it may be that GZ's rights were violated and he is the victim of a malicious prosecution. Maybe I'm wrong but I would bet when this is all resolved it looks closer to the Duke Lacrosse scandal then any sort of hate crime.


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  15. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alecto View Post
    We will find out more with the discovery files and the 7-11 and clubhouse video will be particularly helpful but this what I've read so far.

    1)TM left 7-11 at 6:30 at the latest and it was 0.8 miles away. If he had just walked straight home he would have made it back before GZ even saw him.

    2)It's not till 58 seconds into GZ's 911 call that he says TM is coming towards him. Looking at a map of the area and where GZ was parked and the clubhouse distance TM should have already been passing GZ at that point if he had been walking at a regular speed. Maybe TM wasn't walking home at that point and had taken shelter under the awning by the clubhouse (as Crump seemed to suggest) and there is certainly nothing at all criminal about that but what happens next is very important.

    3)TM focuses on GZ and approaches his vehicle. Keep in mind that GZ's call starts off with TM being (likely) more then 200 feet away and GZ didn't anticipate TM walking up on his vehicle. Now maybe GZ is really so dumb that he didn't realize he parked directly in the path of the person he was watching but it's also possible that what he described was accurate and that TM had come to check him out.

    4)According to GZ TM not only approaches his vehicle he even circles it. That's some pretty weird behavior and IMO you can hear GZ getting nervous in his call. Basically, at that moment GZ's suspicions were validated. Something was kind of "wrong" with TM. If I thought someone was watching me like GZ was doing I might give them a hard look as I walked past their vehicle but I sure as he'll would never circle it.

    5)It's only after that happens that GZ starts swearing (******* and ****ing punks) and he was understandably upset.

    6)When TM then later runs he has a head start in both distance and time. Realistically GZ had no chance of catching a fleeing TM in an equal start foot race. Unless GZ had delusions of being a track star he likely just wanted to get to location where he could see where TM went and was just trying keep his eyes on TM to report where TM was running to exactly.

    7)The location of the fight is impossible to reconcile with TM wanting to get away from GZ. (That would require GZ getting in front of TM and chasing him back up towards where he parked but how would GZ get in front of TM in the first place?)

    8)There is considerable evidence that it was GZ screaming for help and he has injuries consistent with the screams that sound like a person being injured. An eyewitness supports that it was GZ screaming for help as well. We know the screams for help went on 44 seconds plus however long the first caller took to hear screams and then call 911 about it so I think it is fair to say the screaming went on for well over a minute. Police at the scene reported GZ said, "I kept yelling for help, but nobody would help me."

    I don't see how anyone can get a hate crime out of this at all.

    When the FBI/DOJ first got involved congresswoman Corrine Brown sent a letter to AG holder stating that TM was "half the size" of GZ at a time when there was a media firestorm with people insisting that GZ had no injuries, that GZ used a racial slur, and that TM had been begging/whining for life for an extended period of time before GZ shot him. ALL of those points except the last one have already been proven wrong and the last one is very close to being proven already too since those screams indicate injury and there is eyewitness that says it was GZ screaming. So there is a really interesting civil rights angle to this case, it may be that GZ's rights were violated and he is the victim of a malicious prosecution. Maybe I'm wrong but I would bet when this is all resolved it looks closer to the Duke Lacrosse scandal then any sort of hate crime.
    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
    “In all debates, let truth be thy aim, not victory, or an unjust interest.” - William Penn


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  17. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alecto View Post
    We will find out more with the discovery files and the 7-11 and clubhouse video will be particularly helpful but this what I've read so far.

    1)TM left 7-11 at 6:30 at the latest and it was 0.8 miles away. If he had just walked straight home he would have made it back before GZ even saw him.

    2)It's not till 58 seconds into GZ's 911 call that he says TM is coming towards him. Looking at a map of the area and where GZ was parked and the clubhouse distance TM should have already been passing GZ at that point if he had been walking at a regular speed. Maybe TM wasn't walking home at that point and had taken shelter under the awning by the clubhouse (as Crump seemed to suggest) and there is certainly nothing at all criminal about that but what happens next is very important.

    3)TM focuses on GZ and approaches his vehicle. Keep in mind that GZ's call starts off with TM being (likely) more then 200 feet away and GZ didn't anticipate TM walking up on his vehicle. Now maybe GZ is really so dumb that he didn't realize he parked directly in the path of the person he was watching but it's also possible that what he described was accurate and that TM had come to check him out.

    4)According to GZ TM not only approaches his vehicle he even circles it. That's some pretty weird behavior and IMO you can hear GZ getting nervous in his call. Basically, at that moment GZ's suspicions were validated. Something was kind of "wrong" with TM. If I thought someone was watching me like GZ was doing I might give them a hard look as I walked past their vehicle but I sure as he'll would never circle it.

    5)It's only after that happens that GZ starts swearing (******* and ****ing punks) and he was understandably upset.

    6)When TM then later runs he has a head start in both distance and time. Realistically GZ had no chance of catching a fleeing TM in an equal start foot race. Unless GZ had delusions of being a track star he likely just wanted to get to location where he could see where TM went and was just trying keep his eyes on TM to report where TM was running to exactly.

    7)The location of the fight is impossible to reconcile with TM wanting to get away from GZ. (That would require GZ getting in front of TM and chasing him back up towards where he parked but how would GZ get in front of TM in the first place?)

    8)There is considerable evidence that it was GZ screaming for help and he has injuries consistent with the screams that sound like a person being injured. An eyewitness supports that it was GZ screaming for help as well. We know the screams for help went on 44 seconds plus however long the first caller took to hear screams and then call 911 about it so I think it is fair to say the screaming went on for well over a minute. Police at the scene reported GZ said, "I kept yelling for help, but nobody would help me."

    I don't see how anyone can get a hate crime out of this at all.

    When the FBI/DOJ first got involved congresswoman Corrine Brown sent a letter to AG holder stating that TM was "half the size" of GZ at a time when there was a media firestorm with people insisting that GZ had no injuries, that GZ used a racial slur, and that TM had been begging/whining for life for an extended period of time before GZ shot him. ALL of those points except the last one have already been proven wrong and the last one is very close to being proven already too since those screams indicate injury and there is eyewitness that says it was GZ screaming. So there is a really interesting civil rights angle to this case, it may be that GZ's rights were violated and he is the victim of a malicious prosecution. Maybe I'm wrong but I would bet when this is all resolved it looks closer to the Duke Lacrosse scandal then any sort of hate crime.
    So GZ is describing everything about Trayvon, even down to the fact that he was wearing a button on his shirt, but he leaves out the part about his vehicle being circled?


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  19. #55
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    Based on the information coming out specifically injuries and the timeline of who was where, I am starting to believe the DA does not have much of a case against GZ for manslaughter or a hate crime. I think the FBI looking into the hate crime possibility is to make sure all evidence is meticulously examined to ensure a thorough and just investigation.
    Beam me up Scotty


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  21. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by clarabelle View Post
    Based on the information coming out specifically injuries and the timeline of who was where, I am starting to believe the DA does not have much of a case against GZ for manslaughter or a hate crime. I think the FBI looking into the hate crime possibility is to make sure all evidence is meticulously examined to ensure a thorough and just investigation.
    This is what I think too


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  23. #57
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    I don't agree....it seems there is an active investigation by the FBI to see if they can make a hate crime charge. Of course if they find additional information that will assist the state in court, I'm sure it will be shared with them also.

    http://content.usatoday.com/communit...D=j2gqi65yjjzv

    Zimmerman profiled and stalked Martin before shooting and killing him Feb. 26, state prosecutors have said, so the FBI is looking into charging Zimmerman with a hate crime, WFTV reports.

    FBI representatives are interviewing residents of Zimmerman's neighorhood in Sanford, Fla., looking for evidence of a hate crime, according to WFTV.


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  25. #58
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    I think it's pretty cut and dry. The FBI audio guys were NOT able to discern what Mr. Zimmerman said, as stated in the report that they gave Ms. Corey's team.
    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
    “In all debates, let truth be thy aim, not victory, or an unjust interest.” - William Penn


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  27. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Noiter View Post
    I think it's pretty cut and dry. The FBI audio guys were NOT able to discern what Mr. Zimmerman said, as stated in the report that they gave Ms. Corey's team.
    That audio is not the entire basis of a hate crime charge, tho....the FBI is talking to all the tenants at the complex about GZ's work as a watchman, his attitudes to all races/groups and all facets about this crime.


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  29. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reader View Post
    I don't agree....it seems there is an active investigation by the FBI to see if they can make a hate crime charge. Of course if they find additional information that will assist the state in court, I'm sure it will be shared with them also.

    http://content.usatoday.com/communit...D=j2gqi65yjjzv
    I wonder how long they have to make that decision/determination?


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