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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by suzihawk View Post
    I wonder why he's fighting the release of the discovery as allowed by the Florida Sunshine laws, if he's not 'terribly concerned', ? Or why he waived his client's right to a speedy trial? Why would he want to drag his client through a long and painful ordeal if it's a slam dunk? Aside from the money rolling in, that is?
    I think he waived the right to a speedy trial so that he will be as prepared as possible, including retaining experts, and much, much more. I also think that the longer this drags out with his client out of state and out of jail, the interest of the court of public opinion will wane, and that benefits George.

    Afaik, he's not fighting the release, he's just taking the normal precautions that any good defense attorney would to make sure that confidential or prejudical information (like witness information) is not disclosed. The State and the Court all seem to be on the same page with him on that, so even if it might otherwise "concern" me (which it probably wouldn't), it definitely doesn't concern me in this case.

    I also don't have a problem with the money rolling in for the defense. In fact, I'm glad, VERY glad. Imo, this became a railroading extraoridinaire as soon as Crump got involved. I don't fault anyone for giving or taking money for the defense under the circumstances. jmo


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  3. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiancaS View Post
    I would imagine that this doctor also wanted to protect himself with the documentation. GZ told him he was not going to go to an ENT, the doctor would want to have that noted in his file. He probably also realized this was not a normal situation and his file could come under examination at some point.
    You know, I kind of pity this doctor. GZ came to him and accurate records were kept and he was appropriately treated and he went on to the next patient and probably didn't think much more about it. I don't know if he realizes it or not but he is going to be torn to shreds in court if it ever comes to trial. It reminds me of that other noted trial in FL last year where Dr. Vass and many other professional witnesses were really treated as if they were the defendant. And as to how GZ got these injuries, the doctor only has GZ's word for it. Pity.


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  5. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by LambChop View Post
    MOM was basically trying to try the case through Gilbreath without the benefit of witnesses. Gilbreath is not a witness. He could not testify to anything other than what he has investigated and even then he can only be vague. MOM got done what he intended but it in no way will compare to a trial, IMO. jmo
    I disagree. As O'Mara pointed out frequently during his questioning, Gilbreath executed the PCA -- meaning he vouched for the truth of every syllable based on his own PERSONAL knowledge. If he only had vague knowledge of the truth of the allegations in the affidavit, he needed to educate himself sufficiently to swear to them. Otherwise, the affidavit is deficient. Gilbreath is locked in to the basis of his knowledge at the time he signed the PCA. It may be true that he shouldn't have sworn to certain things because he only had vague or secondhand knowledge of the information, but that was precisely O'Mara's point based on his knowledge of what an affidavit is. jmo


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  7. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrandmaTo4 View Post
    Hi Cityslick, maybe you can answer a question I have?

    Why would a doctor acquiesce to Zimmerman that his nose was broken when George not only refused to see an ENT physician who specializes in noses -- but also apparently refused to have his nose X-rayed when X-ray equipment and X-ray technologists were right there inside the DO's "Altamonte Family Practice" office?

    We have no evidence GZ refused an xray at the FP clinic, which I belive strongly was never offered. Xrays are not reliable for diagnosis of cartilage fractures-- too many false negatives and false positives. Here is a good link explaining:

    http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/391863-overview

    Wouldn't George want X-ray proof of a broken nose if his nose was really broken?

    Patients don't always understand what the best medical course of action is. Patients can't just demand a certain procedure from a health care provider. They can suggest, but the health care provider uses professional judgement and evidence based practices to determine diagnostic tests and treatment.

    I have never said that George had no injuries. However, I've never believed he had anywhere near the serious injuries his father, brother and friends said he had.

    (Snipped for space)

    Do I believe that Trayvon was covering George's nose and mouth while George was choking from copious amounts of blood flowing down his throat from his *broken nose.*

    Nope. I dont' believe that either. RZ should keep his mouth shut. All of that is hearsay.

    NO -- because number 1. The doctor did NOT confirm George DID have a broken nose and number

    Apparently the health care provider did document a presumed fracture of the cartilage from what we can see in the narrative. We don't have the H & P yet-- the exam notes.

    2. Copious amounts of blood would have either suffocated George or flowed into his stomach -- in which case, he would have been vomiting blood at the police station and probably would have had bloody diarrhea besides.

    I don't think GZ swallowed much, if any blood. A small amount of blood in the stomach does not always cause vomiting. People who swallow blood do not have "bloody diarrhea"-- they have black, tarry stools from digestion of the blood in the small intestine (and usually a few days after the upper GI ingestion of the blood.) Bloody diarrhea is caused from a lower GI source of bleeding, such as the distal large intestine, rectum, etc.

    Human stomachs do NOT tolerate fresh raw blood. They barf it out violently.

    Not always. Not by a loong shot. A large amt, yes, probably. But not necessarily from small amounts. Everyone is different. Sometimes the first evidence of an upper GI bleed is the patient complaining of tarry black stools, which indicated digested blood of upper GI origin.

    Did you see the photographs of Rhianna right after Chris Brown beat her up?

    That's what a person looks like who has just sustained a severe beating. Did George Zimmerman look anywhere near that bad? HARDLY!

    Even if Zimmerman was the biggest wimpy wuss in Florida his injuries were still NOT life threatening. His family stated they absolutely were!

    His family is not an authoritative source of the severity of his injuries. Not in a court of law.

    They all LIE too much. Therefore, I won't believe anything they say without absolute, convincing proof.

    imo, and millions of others
    My comments in blue above in the quoted post.


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  9. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrandmaTo4 View Post
    Hi Cityslick, maybe you can answer a question I have?

    Why would a doctor acquiesce to Zimmerman that his nose was broken when George not only refused to see an ENT physician who specializes in noses -- but also apparently refused to have his nose X-rayed when X-ray equipment and X-ray technologists were right there inside the DO's "Altamonte Family Practice" office?

    Wouldn't George want X-ray proof of a broken nose if his nose was really broken?

    I have never said that George had no injuries. However, I've never believed he had anywhere near the serious injuries his father, brother and friends said he had.

    I believe the doctor's report confirms my suspicions and NOT his family's gross exaggerations.

    Was George's head continually smashed into concrete until he was nearly unconscious and one blow away from wearing diapers and being spoon fed the rest of his life by his brother ?

    NO -- the evidence certainly does not support that statement. Two tiny cuts on George's head that did not need stitches or even a band-aid are not indicative of multiple head-smashings on concrete. Neither was George's normal agility, balance and appearance at the Sanford PD, 35 minutes after the fatal shooting.

    Do I believe that Trayvon was covering George's nose and mouth while George was choking from copious amounts of blood flowing down his throat from his *broken nose.*

    NO -- because number 1. The doctor did NOT confirm George DID have a broken nose and number 2. Copious amounts of blood would have either suffocated George or flowed into his stomach -- in which case, he would have been vomiting blood at the police station and probably would have had bloody diarrhea besides.

    Human stomachs do NOT tolerate fresh raw blood. They barf it out violently.

    Did you see the photographs of Rhianna right after Chris Brown beat her up?

    That's what a person looks like who has just sustained a severe beating. Did George Zimmerman look anywhere near that bad? HARDLY!

    Even if Zimmerman was the biggest wimpy wuss in Florida his injuries were still NOT life threatening. His family stated they absolutely were!

    They all LIE too much. Therefore, I won't believe anything they say without absolute, convincing proof.

    imo, and millions of others
    They do not have to be life threatening to be able to defend yourself under SYG. Was this guy's life in danger when he chased, stabbed and killed someone because he was 'robbed'?

    http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/2...-in-stand.html

    The doctor would not put on the report that he had a broken nose, likely or otherwise, simply because GZ told him so.


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  11. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovelymountains View Post
    You know, I kind of pity this doctor. GZ came to him and accurate records were kept and he was appropriately treated and he went on to the next patient and probably didn't think much more about it. I don't know if he realizes it or not but he is going to be torn to shreds in court if it ever comes to trial. It reminds me of that other noted trial in FL last year where Dr. Vass and many other professional witnesses were really treated as if they were the defendant. And as to how GZ got these injuries, the doctor only has GZ's word for it. Pity.
    Totally agree. And I also want to point out that there is a very good chance he saw one of the PA's in the office, which would have been totally, 100% appropriate. Both of the PA's have excellent educational credentials listed-- far in excess of the minimum necessary for practice as a PA. I am quite concerned that if it was a PA who saw GZ, that she will be absolutely shredded simply because she is not a physician.

    PA's practice very independently, and are not required to have every decision and every exam "co-signed" by a doc. They must practice in a group with physicians, and can't bill independently for their services-- but a physician is not even required to be onsite in most locations. In most states, they are licensed under the medical board. There is no reason a PA couldn't have very competently handled GZ's visit. (I almost feel the need to preemptively support these providers.... )

    Regardless of who saw GZ in the office, I agree that every little thing in the report will be picked apart and second guessed. I really fear for the reputation and career of the provider. I'm sure the entire clinic staff was dreading the day that medical record became public. Every single person even peripherally associated with GZ has been picked to shreds by the public. The just went to work that day, and got unwittingly caught up in a firestorm.


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  13. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karmady View Post
    I think he waived the right to a speedy trial so that he will be as prepared as possible, including retaining experts, and much, much more. I also think that the longer this drags out with his client out of state and out of jail, the interest of the court of public opinion will wane, and that benefits George.

    Afaik, he's not fighting the release, he's just taking the normal precautions that any good defense attorney would to make sure that confidential or prejudical information (like witness information) is not disclosed. The State and the Court all seem to be on the same page with him on that, so even if it might otherwise "concern" me (which it probably wouldn't), it definitely doesn't concern me in this case.

    I also don't have a problem with the money rolling in for the defense. In fact, I'm glad, VERY glad. Imo, this became a railroading extraoridinaire as soon as Crump got involved. I don't fault anyone for giving or taking money for the defense under the circumstances. jmo
    If Crump had not gotten involved, in all fairness, we never would have heard of Trayvon Martin and GZ would not have been charged with a crime.

    My understanding is that MOM delayed the discovery process. He now says it is to protect the witnesses, but I don't believe he filed the necessary motion until very, very recently, long after the discovery would have been released.

    I think we will be seeing most if not all of the doc dump very soon, which is why the medical report was leaked. Look, over there!!! Kind of like the CA case, distractions right before anything happened, including doc dumps.

    All just MOO!!


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  15. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karmady View Post
    I disagree. As O'Mara pointed out frequently during his questioning, Gilbreath executed the PCA -- meaning he vouched for the truth of every syllable based on his own PERSONAL knowledge. If he only had vague knowledge of the truth of the allegations in the affidavit, he needed to educate himself sufficiently to swear to them. Otherwise, the affidavit is deficient. Gilbreath is locked in to the basis of his knowledge at the time he signed the PCA. It may be true that he shouldn't have sworn to certain things because he only had vague or secondhand knowledge of the information, but that was precisely O'Mara's point based on his knowledge of what an affidavit is. jmo
    Incorrect. Gilbreath can swear to information provided in a probable cause affidavit that he receives from other law enforcement officers. Also, if you look at the affidavit it clearly states that Gilbreath and O'Steen swear to the information. Gilbreath is not going to speak for O'Steen and vice versa. I've read over and over and over about how the PC affidavit should lay out the case and give all the information. Not true. A defense attorney would love that, but that is not what is required. A probable cause affidavit should be brief and contain only the elements of the offense necessary to secure an arrest warrant. In other words, enough information to convince a judge that a warrant is justified. So if MOM wanted a true representation and wanted to question folks about the affidavit in the bond hearing, he should have subpoenaed both investigators. He didn't, he saw Gilbreath there and took advantage. I don't fault him for that, it was good thinking and it turned out well for him.

    George's injuries...I think you can look through my limited posts on this thread and see that I have never indicated that I didn't think or believe that GZ was injured. I've always believed that he probably was injured, he described a fight, and people get injured in fights. I've never said...prove to me he was injured. So now, let's put these injuries in context with everything else, except we can't because we're missing the everything else.


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  17. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by lauriej View Post
    http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/tray...ection=1206833

    --scalp lacerations: NO sutures needed..

    --also, anyone know what a diagnosis of IBS refers to? K Z ??

    Irritable Bowel Syndrome. What we are looking at is the "summary" section of the narrative. He was given Lodine, a NSAID. The provider is commenting that GZ was counseled as to the risk of the Lodine creating GI upset in a patient with a previous dx of IBS.


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  19. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiancaS View Post
    If Crump had not gotten involved, in all fairness, we never would have heard of Trayvon Martin and GZ would not have been charged with a crime.

    My understanding is that MOM delayed the discovery process. He now says it is to protect the witnesses, but I don't believe he filed the necessary motion until very, very recently, long after the discovery would have been released.

    I think we will be seeing most if not all of the doc dump very soon, which is why the medical report was leaked. Look, over there!!! Kind of like the CA case, distractions right before anything happened, including doc dumps.

    All just MOO!!
    I don't know what would have happened if Crump hadn't gotten involved since the investigation was ongoing. Further, I'm not sure that George being arrested WAS the right outcome based on what I've seen so far, even for manslaughter. If George has I valid SYG defense, which I believe he does have (at least the State can't prove otherwise, as the prosecutor's office initially concluded), the law is designed specifically to protect him from arrest, not just conviction. jmo

    As far as releasing the medical report now, jmo, but it would be much better to release negative information BEFORE you release favorable information for the same reason you mentioned. You're only as good as the last thing you did, as they say, or in this case, as the last thing the public saw. jmo


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  21. #161
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    Crump said Wednesday the injuries cited in Zimmerman's medical report do not clear him of shooting Martin.

    "You have to look at this in the full context," he said. "George Zimmerman made the decision to get out of his car, profile Trayvon Martin, pursue Trayvon Martin and confront him."

    He said the report shows that Martin was fighting for his life and the altercation never would have happened if Zimmerman had not pursued the teen.

    He also questioned the severity of Zimmerman's injuries. He said Zimmerman refused to go to the hospital at the scene, was then seen on a police videotape at least 30 minutes later in which he had no visible injuries and went to his doctor the next day to get clearance to return to work.

    "This report needs to be vetted with a keen eye," he said.

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...ort/55022578/1
    .............Any man's death diminishes me because I am
    involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
    it tolls for thee. . . .
    from Meditation 17
    by John Donne


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  23. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by cityslick View Post
    They do not have to be life threatening to be able to defend yourself under SYG. Was this guy's life in danger when he chased, stabbed and killed someone because he was 'robbed'?

    http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/2...-in-stand.html

    The doctor would not put on the report that he had a broken nose, likely or otherwise, simply because GZ told him so.
    That case is really strange, the guy killed him then stole the other radios the guy had and sold them. Why wasn't that murder in the commission of a felony?
    .............Any man's death diminishes me because I am
    involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
    it tolls for thee. . . .
    from Meditation 17
    by John Donne


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  25. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Fessel View Post
    Crump said Wednesday the injuries cited in Zimmerman's medical report do not clear him of shooting Martin.

    "You have to look at this in the full context," he said. "George Zimmerman made the decision to get out of his car, profile Trayvon Martin, pursue Trayvon Martin and confront him."

    He said the report shows that Martin was fighting for his life and the altercation never would have happened if Zimmerman had not pursued the teen.

    He also questioned the severity of Zimmerman's injuries. He said Zimmerman refused to go to the hospital at the scene, was then seen on a police videotape at least 30 minutes later in which he had no visible injuries and went to his doctor the next day to get clearance to return to work.

    "This report needs to be vetted with a keen eye," he said.

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...ort/55022578/1
    Dang Lawyers are experts in everything


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  27. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Fessel View Post
    Crump said Wednesday the injuries cited in Zimmerman's medical report do not clear him of shooting Martin.

    "You have to look at this in the full context," he said. "George Zimmerman made the decision to get out of his car, profile Trayvon Martin, pursue Trayvon Martin and confront him."

    He said the report shows that Martin was fighting for his life and the altercation never would have happened if Zimmerman had not pursued the teen.

    He also questioned the severity of Zimmerman's injuries. He said Zimmerman refused to go to the hospital at the scene, was then seen on a police videotape at least 30 minutes later in which he had no visible injuries and went to his doctor the next day to get clearance to return to work.

    "This report needs to be vetted with a keen eye," he said.

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...ort/55022578/1
    I haven't seen a single source that suggests that the injuries documented in GZ's med records "clear him". Certainly they are an important part of the whole picture of what happened. And, imo, the mere existence of injuries on GZ DOES put the topic of self defense back on the table (if it was ever off in the first place).

    Interestingly, in all 5 of the individuals who have been convicted of federal hate crimes, none of them were injured by their victims. None of them claimed any variety of self defense. Food for thought.


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  29. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by LC446 View Post
    Incorrect. Gilbreath can swear to information provided in a probable cause affidavit that he receives from other law enforcement officers. Also, if you look at the affidavit it clearly states that Gilbreath and O'Steen swear to the information. Gilbreath is not going to speak for O'Steen and vice versa. I've read over and over and over about how the PC affidavit should lay out the case and give all the information. Not true. A defense attorney would love that, but that is not what is required. A probable cause affidavit should be brief and contain only the elements of the offense necessary to secure an arrest warrant. In other words, enough information to convince a judge that a warrant is justified. So if MOM wanted a true representation and wanted to question folks about the affidavit in the bond hearing, he should have subpoenaed both investigators. He didn't, he saw Gilbreath there and took advantage. I don't fault him for that, it was good thinking and it turned out well for him.

    George's injuries...I think you can look through my limited posts on this thread and see that I have never indicated that I didn't think or believe that GZ was injured. I've always believed that he probably was injured, he described a fight, and people get injured in fights. I've never said...prove to me he was injured. So now, let's put these injuries in context with everything else, except we can't because we're missing the everything else.
    You can rely on what you are told by others so long as you are comfortable with what they told you, but you still have to claim it as your personal knowledge otherwise you can't effectively swear to it. Swearing to something is exactly the same as saying I know this to be true on penalty of perjury. It is a statement to the Court, under oath.

    Example:

    I submit an affidavit swearing that on June 6, 2011, my office sent a letter to so-and-so which said x, y z. If I wrote and sent the letter, I can swear to it without reservation. If I did not write the letter I can attach it and swear to it because I've seen the letter and the normal business practice in my office is for letters to be sent on the day they are dated by the means identified in the letter. However, if I did not write or send the letter myself, but my colleague tells me that he wrote it and sent it, I can still swear to it (as in, its physically possible for me to do so). But if I don't independently verify that the letter was sent and/or attach it to my affidavit, my affidavit is, at best, deficient and subject to challenge on that basis. Which is exactly the point of O'Mara's questioning.

    And you are right that O'Steen also signed the affidavit. So I stand corrected on that point. I've never seen (or at least never noticed) an affidavit signed by two people. Nonetheless, both affiants are independently responsible for the content of the entire document, imo, and Gilbreath is still locked in. I agree with Dershowitz that it is a deficient PCA...period, and I think O'Mara did a great job.


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