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  1. #1
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    The Kel Tec PF9 Handgun and Firearm Law Thread

    This thread is for discussion about the handgun used by George Zimmerman in the shooting of Trayvon Martin. Anything related to firearms in this case should be posted here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RANCH View Post
    This thread is for discussion about the handgun used by George Zimmerman in the shooting of Trayvon Martin. Anything related to firearms in this case should be posted here.
    Many of you carry or are handgun experts. I'm curious about all the talk relating to the possibility of GZ's gun recoiling. Does that happen very often? I've done some web searches and can't find anything difinitive either way.

    If there was recoil, wouldn't there have been GSR on GZ's face?
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaded cat View Post
    Many of you carry or are handgun experts. I'm curious about all the talk relating to the possibility of GZ's gun recoiling. Does that happen very often? I've done some web searches and can't find anything difinitive either way.

    If there was recoil, wouldn't there have been GSR on GZ's face?
    I'm not sure what you mean by recoiling. Every gun produces recoil when fired. It's physics. Every action has a equal reaction.

    “ To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction: or the forces of two bodies on each other are always equal and are directed in opposite directions. ”
    There could be Gun Shot Residue (GSR) on GZ's face but we know he was the shooter so I don't know if it matters if he did.

    [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws_of_motion"]Newton's laws of motion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

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    Quote Originally Posted by RANCH View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean by recoiling. Every gun produces recoil when fired. It's physics. Every action has a equal reaction.



    There could be Gun Shot Residue (GSR) on GZ's face but we know he was the shooter so I don't know if it matters if he did.

    Newton's laws of motion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Sorry Ranch, I meant some have suggested GZ's injuries might have been from recoil when he shot TM.

    Your second comment may have answered my question. Would GZ have had GSR on his face even if he was injured by TM and shot his gun?
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    Halt, face away from me and put the Occam's Razor on the ground now; put your hands on your head and interlace your fingers behind your head.

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  5. #5
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    http://keltecweapons.com/our-guns/

    The Kel-Tec PF9 is a DAO pistol. Double action only means when you pull the trigger, your cocking and releasing the hammer with one pull of the trigger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaded cat View Post
    Sorry Ranch, I meant some have suggested GZ's injuries might have been from recoil when he shot TM.

    Your second comment may have answered my question. Would GZ have had GSR on his face even if he was injured by TM and shot his gun?
    He would have had to hold his weapon less than 3 inches away from his nose for the injuries to occur. Not very likely given that he was TRAINED on how to use his weapon.
    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
    “In all debates, let truth be thy aim, not victory, or an unjust interest.” - William Penn

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Noiter View Post
    He would have had to hold his weapon less than 3 inches away from his nose for the injuries to occur. Not very likely given that he was TRAINED on how to use his weapon.
    AJ, I just want to get some facts straight in my head. While I can load and fire a handgun, I'm just doing what I was taught. I don't know from power, type of bullets, length of distance from target.

    In the heat of the moment, when GZ shot his weapon, from the distance (or lack of) we've been given, would GZ have GSR on his face?
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    Halt, face away from me and put the Occam's Razor on the ground now; put your hands on your head and interlace your fingers behind your head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaded cat View Post
    Sorry Ranch, I meant some have suggested GZ's injuries might have been from recoil when he shot TM.

    Your second comment may have answered my question. Would GZ have had GSR on his face even if he was injured by TM and shot his gun?
    I've seen that suggestion myself. I really don't think that GZ's nose injury was from the slide of his gun hitting him. If his nose injury was only a cut from the sharp edges of the slide then maybe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaded cat View Post
    AJ, I just want to get some facts straight in my head. While I can load and fire a handgun, I'm just doing what I was taught. I don't know from power, type of bullets, length of distance from target.

    In the heat of the moment, when GZ shot his weapon, from the distance (or lack of) we've been given, would GZ have GSR on his face?
    That's the difference from just loading and firing a weapon and being trained. When you are trained they teach you about recoil. They teach you the various moving and non-moving parts of the firearm. In fact, when I was learning how to shoot my (first weapon) Baretta 9mm they made sure to express greatly that I didn't lay my thumb on or near the slide because the gun could very well "chop it off" (their exact words to me). It's not very likely that Mr. Zimmerman would've forgotten something like that.
    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
    “In all debates, let truth be thy aim, not victory, or an unjust interest.” - William Penn

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Noiter View Post
    That's the difference from just loading and firing a weapon and being trained. When you are trained they teach you about recoil. They teach you the various moving and non-moving parts of the firearm. In fact, when I was learning how to shoot my (first weapon) Baretta 9mm they made sure to express greatly that I didn't lay my thumb on or near the slide because the gun could very well "chop it off" (their exact words to me). It's not very likely that Mr. Zimmerman would've forgotten something like that.
    Thanks! My only experience with recoil was with a shotgun that left my shoulder looking like an Arizona sunrise for about 2 weeks. Handguns were different but I was closely supervised.

    People who don't really know what they're doing should not handle guns of any type.
    All my posts are MOO!

    Halt, face away from me and put the Occam's Razor on the ground now; put your hands on your head and interlace your fingers behind your head.

    "Ethics is knowing the difference between what you have a right to do and what is the right thing to do."-Justice Potter Stewart, US Supreme Court Justice 1915-1985


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    In the discovery just released I saw that the shell casing was marked 9mm Luger S&B and that all rounds were accounted for. 6 live rounds in the magazine, 1 live round from the chamber of the gun, and 1 spent casing. The Kel Tec PF9 has a magazine capacity of 7 plus one in the chamber.

    http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/51l...65f0a7f05c.jpg


  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaded cat View Post
    Thanks! My only experience with recoil was with a shotgun that left my shoulder looking like an Arizona sunrise for about 2 weeks. Handguns were different but I was closely supervised.

    People who don't really know what they're doing should not handle guns of any type.
    I'm nit-picking (mostly being silly in doing so) here but how do you learn what you're doing if you don't handle them?
    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
    “In all debates, let truth be thy aim, not victory, or an unjust interest.” - William Penn

  13. #13
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    Here's an animation of the Kel-Tec PF9. Notice how the hammer returns to the "uncocked" position after firing making this gun a DAO handgun.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIDoUu8lDGU"]Animation of Kel Tec PF 9 Pistol Function - YouTube[/ame]

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Noiter View Post
    I'm nit-picking (mostly being silly in doing so) here but how do you learn what you're doing if you don't handle them?
    Not nit-picky at all. I meant unsupervised or supervised by people who shouldn't be tying their shoes, much less letting or telling someone else how to handle a gun. I'm much better with a shotgun, that I have confidence in. Small arms, not so much. Up thread the word "trained" was used and rightly so. Large property or backyard shooting galleries are not the same as a qualified gun range.
    Last edited by jaded cat; 05-17-2012 at 11:49 PM. Reason: add
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaded cat View Post
    AJ, I just want to get some facts straight in my head. While I can load and fire a handgun, I'm just doing what I was taught. I don't know from power, type of bullets, length of distance from target.

    In the heat of the moment, when GZ shot his weapon, from the distance (or lack of) we've been given, would GZ have GSR on his face?
    Here's the thing. From what I see GZ's holster would be an inside the pants, holster set up to wear on the right side. When you draw from that type of holster, you are usually drawing from anywhere on your right side to the right side of your back. I just don't see it getting near his face, especially if he was panicked and had someone on top of him punching him. I would think he would fire as soon as he got the gun into "mass" range.
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