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Thread: "Reckless, irresponsible": Kansas teacher's "gay is same as murder" Facebook rant

  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Cappuccino View Post
    I see no non-relgious reason to outlaw gay marriage, so unless America is a theocracy, I see no reason for it not to be legalised.
    Question: Several of your posts have a European spelling. Are you in/from the US? You don't have to answer, but the answers might impact your stance/understanding of America.

    America is not a theocracy, but was uniquely founded with religious freedoms as a fundamental principle. To take marriage, a faith originated covenant relationship, and try to change what it means and force religious institutions and individuals to support it violates the freedom of expression clause of the First Amendment.

    Moo

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  3. #302
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    I'm from Ireland.

    Plenty of other Americans disagree with your reading of the situation, apparently including the current POTUS, so I don't think my being from Europe is all that relevant.

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  5. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Cappuccino View Post
    I'm from Ireland.

    Plenty of other Americans disagree with your reading of the situation, apparently including the current POTUS, so I don't think my being from Europe is all that relevant.
    As I said, it 'might' impact your perceptions. The governance and structure of the US, our founding docs, and religious freedoms are pretty unique in the world, and they do impact Americans' views.

    Beautiful country, btw.

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  7. #304
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    Thank you.

    Your country's laws and governance are nowhere near as unique as you think they are. Alot of other countries have modelled their Constitutions, etc, on the US model, plus all countries in the English speaking world inherited alot of their legal principles from English common law. We're getting way off topic now though, suffice to say that the views I've expressed are shared by alot of Americans themselves, so I don't think I'm giving some kind of Europe-only perspective.

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  9. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by wfgodot View Post
    snip

    Okay, with all due respect, let's keep political names out of this or we'll wind up in the basement in the political forum and many posters avoid that like the plague. So no "Obama's doing this..." or "Romney did that."

    This thread isn't about gay marriage. It's about the teacher who saw fit to express his beliefs on homosexuality via his social network page, and whether or not that was a good defensible thing. I know that, above, various posts do mention it. But that topic will only sidetrack the legitimately interesting discussion going on regarding the initial thread post.

    We're doing fine but let's not push matters into other arenas. Plenty of opportunity to fashion a gay marriage thread (if there's not one already) and either gripe and moan about it or show solidarity with the idea.

    But not here. We can talk about the topic without dragging Barack or Mitt in. That would only polarize matters further.
    I understand what you're saying and I'm not trying to get us moved to the PP, Parking Lot, or locked. I agree with you that, for the most part, the posters here have worked hard to try to hear each other and communicate civilly. And a heartfelt thank you is in order to Admin and mods for letting us more freely discuss hard topics.

    That said, I do think it's relevant, as the teacher addressed it, and many have expressed either perplexity or outrage over why he felt the need to express his beliefs at all. He posted it in response to the media reports around the President's announcement.

    Snipped from Skewed View's post # 11 in this thread:
    "All this talk in the news about gay marriage recently has finally driven me to write. Gay marriage is wrong because homosexuality is wrong. The Bible clearly states it is sin. Now I do not claim it to be a sin any worse than other sins. It ranks in God's eyes the same as murder, lying, stealing, or cheating. His standards are perfect and ALL have sinned and fallen short of His glory. Sin is sin and we all deserve hell. Only those who accept Christ as Lord and daily with the help of the Spirit do their best to turn from sin will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. There aren't multiple ways to get to Heaven. There is one. To many this may seem close minded and antagonistic, but it doesn't make it any less true. Folks I am willing to admit that my depravity is just as great as anyone else's, and without Christ I'd be destined for hell, if not for the undeserved grace of God. I'm not condemning gay marriage because I hate gay people. I am doing it because those who embrace it will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven. And I desire that for no one."

    Facebook posting by Buhler USD 313 teacher/coach Jack Conkling
    BBM

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  11. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seek&Find View Post
    I understand what you're saying and I'm not trying to get us moved to the PP, Parking Lot, or locked. I agree with you that, for the most part, the posters here have worked hard to try to hear each other and communicate civilly. And a heartfelt thank you is in order to Admin and mods for letting us more freely discuss hard topics.

    That said, I do think it's relevant, as the teacher addressed it, and many have expressed either perplexity or outrage over why he felt the need to express his beliefs at all. He posted it in response to the media reports around the President's announcement.

    Snipped from Skewed View's post # 11 in this thread:


    BBM
    True, it's there, undeniably. But I think it's plenty on our plates if we sever the two parts of this matter - those being i) is it proper for a public school teacher to broadcast via social media an opinion that cannot but prove hurtful to certain of his students; and ii) gay marriage - and stick with the former. Plenty there: freedom of speech, Biblical matters, the role of teacher in society, those sorts of things. Gay marriage being a key political issue in the coming election, evidently (somewhat unbelievably, with all the other more important issues to decide), that discussion does not belong here, but in the political forum. ("imho," lol)

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  13. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by T4Tide View Post
    BBM

    That, my friend, is the whole premise of Christianity. There is NOTHING we, as sinners, can do to change who we are. Jesus was our sacrifice, and through believing in Him, we have eternal life and forgiveness.

    I am a sinner by merely existing. I am condemned if I do not ask forgiveness for the things that I know are sins. Because of the Holy Spirit who dwells within me, I am convicted and I know when I sin, and therefore ask for forgiveness and try my hardest not to sin again. I cannot deliberately sin without feeling horrible and knowing I need to repent. How is it that I don't have a hard time saying that I am a sinner, but yet so many people take offense? If they aren't believers, why would they even care about my little spiritual game and FB posts to begin with?

    I will be in Heaven one day. Along with murderers, homosexuals, adulterers, liars, idolaters, haters, thieves, etc, etc, etc..... IF the before mentioned have confessed their sins before God and accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. No one's damning anyone. Well, except for the guy on FB. Everyone's damning him for his religious beliefs!
    T4Tide, excellent post!

    And it touches on the Biblical view that all of us have sinful natures and yet we're still all accountable for those sins, as the teacher's post said.

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  15. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by wfgodot View Post
    True, it's there, undeniably. But I think it's plenty on our plates if we sever the two parts of this matter - those being i) is it proper for a public school teacher to broadcast via social media an opinion that cannot but prove hurtful to certain of his students; and ii) gay marriage - and stick with the former. Plenty there: freedom of speech, Biblical matters, the role of teacher in society, those sorts of things. Gay marriage being a key political issue in the coming election, evidently (somewhat unbelievably, with all the other more important issues to decide), that discussion does not belong here, but in the political forum. ("imho," lol)
    Lol. I understand. . What - you don't think we should address global warming and which color socks are best in this thread too? . I thought it deserved mention in light of the teacher's post and reason for it. Wasn't planning to go all in on the election, blah, blah. (I've got no horse in that race, anyway.) Certain tangental but relevant issues have been touched on here, and I think we've avoided going off on a rabbit trail or falling into a rabbit hole.

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  17. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montjoy View Post
    I don't think any group or belief system holds a monopoly on hatred, so I don't understand the point of this, other than more of the fallacious 'two wrongs make a right' sort of thinking.
    I am saying that we cannot single out one group for hatred.




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  19. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    Regardless of what you imagine God thinks (I still find it astounding that anyone would presume to know that, but never mind), human beings do make distinctions between the severity of different sins.

    The teacher could have just written "In the eyes of God, homosexuality is the same as any other fornication." That would have been Biblically sound, a fair equation and sufficient to make his point.

    Of course, so few people obey the injunctions against fornication nowadays that such a statement wouldn't have conveyed the hatred he really wanted to express. So he jumped instead to what most people consider the worst possible sin. Equating gays with murderers is no accident; it's hate speech.
    But he didn't, and just because he didn't write what you would have written doesn't mean what he did write was hate speech.

    You not believing in heaven or hell, doesn't mean you are writing hate speech towards believers.

    (Calling people who disagree bigots and homphobes may be considered hate speech though)
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  21. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie09 View Post
    But he didn't, and just because he didn't write what you would have written doesn't mean what he did write was hate speech.

    You not believing in heaven or hell, doesn't mean you are writing hate speech towards believers.

    (Calling people who disagree bigots and homphobes may be considered hate speech though)
    What's a homphobe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wfgodot View Post
    What's a homphobe?
    I think that was a spelling error. It's humphobe. The fear of hummers or people that hum.
    Clear your mind must be, if you are to discover the real villains behind this plot. Opinion only, my posts are.

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  24. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by wfgodot View Post
    What's a homphobe?
    yeah, I'm the only one who ever has a typo....
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  26. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I think that was a spelling error. It's humphobe. The fear of hummers or people that hum.
    Oh deary me. There is no way to phrase the comment I want to make to that bolded part which wouldn't get me banned forever from Websleuths. Thanks for the laugh.

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  28. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seek&Find View Post
    Previous quote: "He may have known about the acts, but if He knew about gay people, why did He never mention us in that all-encompassing book?"

    Actually, they are mentioned in the OT - Deuteronomy, 1400 BC...not sure why the timetable is important, though. (I can never find the shrug icon!) They're likewise mentioned in the NT. In fact, it's been referenced by others, but we can agree to disagree.
    May I have your source on the Deuteronomy reference, please?

    It is absolutely wrong, but I can't show you how it is wrong without seeing it.

    I've already explained why people in 1400 BC could have had no such concept. It simply wasn't relevant to their social or economic systems.

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  30. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seek&Find View Post
    ... Wow. So the theory is conservative Christians have for centuries colluded to insert mistranslated verses into the Bible.


    Again, undue personalization. Marriage is a God given right, not a civil right. He gets to make that call, He has, and I trust His love and righteousness to have made the right call. Moo. I also agree with Ron Paul re: marriage. That it's the business of the church, not the government.

    I do think we're pretty far afield of addressing the teacher's post, though.
    In fact, the marriage that is at issue to gays is civli marriage. And it is a right, per the Supreme Court. A right so far extended to gay people only in certain states and countries.

    Christians have been making up all sorts of things based on bad translations and, yes, they have been doing so for centuries. It isn't a conspiracy, necessarily, just ignorance. I am not referring to all Christians at all times, of course.

    Accusing me of "undue personalization" is not the same thing as saying I am wrong.

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  32. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    How can anyone support firing this man because of what he might do? That would be like firing a teacher because he was a homosexual and might discuss his sexual orientation with the students.

    He posted his beliefs on his Facebook page. If he was saying this exact same thing in a restaurant and was overheard would he be fired?
    I agree that firing is an extreme consequence and I have mixed feelings about it.

    But what would you say if the same teacher had posted (for his 600 "FB friends" including students) that all Catholics are the same as murderers?

    What if he said all those who vote for Democrats are the same as murderers?

    What if he wrote that slavery should be legal as long as the slaves are treated well (as per the OT)?

    Is there no limit to what a teacher may say about those whom he teaches and/or their families?

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  34. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by HMSHood View Post
    I have seen many anti-gay who are not Christian or religious at all. Some of those non-religious anti-gay figures are anti-religion, including anti-Christian.

    Communism and homosexuality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    That is absolutely true. Soviet Russia was famously homophobic; Communist China remains so today, I believe. Hitler (after purging homosexuals from the ranks of his party) confined known homosexuals to work and death camps beside Jews, Slavs and the disabled.

    But most of us are posting from the United States. And opposition to gay rights here in the U.S. has come largely (though not exclusively) from conservative Christians and Jews.

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  36. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    I agree that firing is an extreme consequence and I have mixed feelings about it.

    But what would you say if the same teacher had posted (for his 600 "FB friends" including students) that all Catholics are the same as murderers?

    What if he said all those who vote for Democrats are the same as murderers?

    What if he wrote that slavery should be legal as long as the slaves are treated well (as per the OT)?

    Is there no limit to what a teacher may say about those whom he teaches and/or their families?
    It's a quandry for a school board. First district in which I taught, a guy was fired because he was introducing - pushing actually - religious beliefs in his jr. high classroom. His contract was not renewed - same thing as firing, and he was untenured, thus no public reason had to be given for the non-renewal. And this at a school that still had a Christmas pageant [!] and a Thanksgiving assembly at the high school which included hymn-singing! So it either was a particularly egregious offense - I didn't find out the details - or some influential family (-ies) with kids in his class complained loud and long.

    Next year, the fired guy ran for school board - and won! Aiieee! But he was fine though and didn't, to his credit, go nuts and seek retribution.

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  38. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seek&Find View Post
    Question: Several of your posts have a European spelling. Are you in/from the US? You don't have to answer, but the answers might impact your stance/understanding of America.

    America is not a theocracy, but was uniquely founded with religious freedoms as a fundamental principle. To take marriage, a faith originated covenant relationship, and try to change what it means and force religious institutions and individuals to support it violates the freedom of expression clause of the First Amendment.

    Moo
    Nobody--repeat NOBODY--is trying to do that.

    I'm going to follow wfgodot's request that we not make this a "gay marriage" thread. Suffice it to say the only issue in that regard is civil marriage. I've yet to read a single gay activist argue that churches be forced to perform sacraments that violate the church's principles.

    I have said before and I will say again that I support the right of any church to refuse to marry gay couples.

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  40. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seek&Find View Post
    As I said, it 'might' impact your perceptions. The governance and structure of the US, our founding docs, and religious freedoms are pretty unique in the world, and they do impact Americans' views.

    Beautiful country, btw.
    Actually, conservative Christians all too commonly distort and misrepresent what the Founding Fathers believed. This is NOT a personal remark aimed at you or a reference to your views.

    What was unique about the U.S. was the very clear and deliberate decision to separate church and state, a decision that has been threatened during various "Red scares" by putting the name of God onto our money, in our courtrooms and into our Pledge of Allegiance.

    But all such decisions are relatively recent and were not the decisions of the Founding Fathers.

    I think Europeans understand all this quite well. And thanks to their history of religious wars, many European nations now offer more freedom of and from religion than the U.S. does.

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  42. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie09 View Post
    But he didn't, and just because he didn't write what you would have written doesn't mean what he did write was hate speech.

    You not believing in heaven or hell, doesn't mean you are writing hate speech towards believers.

    (Calling people who disagree bigots and homphobes may be considered hate speech though)
    Yet another post from the "I'm rubber and you're glue" school of debate. Yes, I've read that page in the Fox News handbook. Not impressed.

    The fact that you compare my disbelief in heaven and hell with a teacher telling his students that gays are like murderers is the perfect example of how ridiculous arguments in defense of this teacher have become.

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  44. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    May I have your source on the Deuteronomy reference, please?

    It is absolutely wrong, but I can't show you how it is wrong without seeing it.

    I've already explained why people in 1400 BC could have had no such concept. It simply wasn't relevant to their social or economic systems.
    Sorry to quote myself, but since Seek hasn't seen my post yet, I did my own research.

    Here's a very knowledgable source (a reverend, BTW):

    http://www.uccanoka.org/TheBibleandHomosexuality.html

    1. The word that is translated as "homosexual" in Deuteronomy also means "male prostitute" or "male acolyte in a pagan temple". (If that seems like an oxymoron, some pagan religions included sexual intercourse as part of their worship. So an "altar boy" was basically also a male prostitute. That's why the same word was used for both.)

    Since the first half of the Deuteronomy verse bans female prostitutes (or female temple acolytes), it makes far more sense that the second half of the verse refers to male prostitutes. Jumping to male homosexuality as we understand it makes no sense, logically or poetically.

    More importantly in re Seek's post above, there is NOTHING in that verse that refers to homosexual persons or their sexual orientation. It simply wasn't a concept in 1200 BC, when Deuteronomy was written.

    2. Deuteronomy also condemns cross-dressing, so I assume that all women who wear pants are just like murderers, too, along with every Scotsman in his kilt.

    "The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God."
    Deuteronomy, 22:5

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  46. #324
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    Confidential to Seek&Find: my preceding post is what I mean by "Christian" scholars cherry-picking. Many (not all) of the Biblical prohibitions you list are cases where somebody has found one word that can have many meanings and then insisted it means "homosexual", ignoring context to serve an anti-gay rights agenda.

    Even in the most seemingly obvious references (Leviticus), scholars debate whether the primary concern was private sexual behavior or keeping the Hebrews from joining in the bacchanal at the nearest pagan temple.

    As a rule, the ancient world didn't worry too much about sex between males because it didn't result in children and therefore didn't affect property rights. (And sex between females was ignored almost entirely until the 1800s.)

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    Originally Posted by Yoda
    I think that was a spelling error. It's humphobe. The fear of hummers or people that hum.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cappuccino View Post
    Oh deary me. There is no way to phrase the comment I want to make to that bolded part which wouldn't get me banned forever from Websleuths. Thanks for the laugh.
    I declare myself a hummerphile.

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