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Thread: Where Did JR Go To Check Mail?

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    Where Did JR Go To Check Mail?

    Forgive me if I'm missing something. We've been told that John Ramsey oddly left the house for about an hour that morning, before JBR's body was discovered, to "check the mail." I believe this report first appeared in Vanity Fair.

    How does it take someone an hour to check the mail? The Ramseys must have had a mail box. Where could he have gone for the mail except to the curb in front of his house? Why would anyone not question this?

    The other inexplicable action JR took that day was to schedule a flight to Atlanta very shortly after his daughter's body was discovered. I don't understand how this one act did not get the Ramseys arrested on the spot. To me, they appeared to be blatantly attempting to flee the crime scene.

    I understand very well that the wealthy are accorded a different brand of justice than the rest of us, but this case is in a class by itself in that regard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unreals View Post
    Forgive me if I'm missing something. We've been told that John Ramsey oddly left the house for about an hour that morning, before JBR's body was discovered, to "check the mail." I believe this report first appeared in Vanity Fair.


    How does it take someone an hour to check the mail? The Ramseys must have had a mail box. Where could he have gone for the mail except to the curb in front of his house? Why would anyone not question this?

    I can't remember enough about this, but there are people here who recall all the little details.

    The other inexplicable action JR took that day was to schedule a flight to Atlanta very shortly after his daughter's body was discovered. I don't understand how this one act did not get the Ramseys arrested on the spot. To me, they appeared to be blatantly attempting to flee the crime scene.
    I wonder if JR was simply seeing what he could do? The cops at that point had made no noises about arresting anyone. If you ask the cops if you can leave the state, they might say no. If you simply call your pilot and start making arrangements, and no one stops you, then you have not broken any laws. I think he was trying to get away from the scene, but I think he was also testing what the cops would allow.

    I understand very well that the wealthy are accorded a different brand of justice than the rest of us, but this case is in a class by itself in that regard.
    It sure is.
    I'm just playing detective here. I have no idea who killed JonBenet. It's just an opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unreals View Post
    Forgive me if I'm missing something. We've been told that John Ramsey oddly left the house for about an hour that morning, before JBR's body was discovered, to "check the mail." I believe this report first appeared in Vanity Fair.

    How does it take someone an hour to check the mail? The Ramseys must have had a mail box. Where could he have gone for the mail except to the curb in front of his house? Why would anyone not question this?

    The other inexplicable action JR took that day was to schedule a flight to Atlanta very shortly after his daughter's body was discovered. I don't understand how this one act did not get the Ramseys arrested on the spot. To me, they appeared to be blatantly attempting to flee the crime scene.

    I understand very well that the wealthy are accorded a different brand of justice than the rest of us, but this case is in a class by itself in that regard.

    This is a myth that has LONG been around. This is what really happened. The myth was started by Detective Linda Arndt, who famously lost control of the crime scene. She was unable to figure out how to keep track of the house full of people, even though she had a gun and could easily have ordered them into one room.
    She "lost track" of JR for about 2 hours that morning, approx between 10 am and noon. During that time, she "thought" that JR must have gone to get his mail for no other reason than she saw him looking through mail when she "found" him again.
    For one- the Ramsey house had a MAIL SLOT in the front door through which mail was delivered right inside the house. They NEVER needed to "go and get mail". All they had to do was walk into the foyer and pick it up from the floor.
    Besides, would ANY parent of a kidnapped child who was supposedly waiting for a VERY important phone call actually leave the house to "go and get mail"?
    Of course, THIS child wasn't really kidnapped. She was dead in the basement at the time JR was missing and later "looking through his mail". And her parents knew there was going to be NO phone call.
    Still- at that time Arndt didn't know JB was dead in the basement and thought the kidnappers were still going to call. Yet she didn't think it "odd" that he would have left the house.
    JR never left the house, nor did he say he did. That was all a figment of Arndt's imagination. He was, however, "missing". Many people (including me) feel he was actually in the wineceller, bring her body into a more easily viewed position. Rigor and livor mortis tell us that she was placed on her back shortly after death, and that her position did not change. BUT she could have been pulled closer to the doorway later without that having been evident.

    As far as the "getaway" plans- to me, that SCREAMS guilty. Had they been truly concerned for the safety of their son and family, the police would have gladly provided that protection, or they could have hired security, all without leaving their dead child behind. INNOCENT parents would have been frantic in those first few days, frantic to talk to police, frantic to see that the investigation was in full gear and frantic to be cleared of suspicion. Yet- these two were oddly reticent. They did all they could to stall any police interviews and wouldn't allow them to talk to BR, whose bedroom down the hall from his sister gave him the opportunity to see and hear any "kidnappers".
    The fact is that the police WANTED to arrest the parents on the spot. Or at least that day. The DA refused to allow it and refused to grant a warrant for the arrest. Instead, he told the police to "treat theses people (the Ramseys) like victims and not like suspects.". So the police could not arrest them.
    And from the moment they walked out of that house (unsearched and unquestioned) they never looked back. They left their dead little girl under the Christmas tree, where little more than a day before she happily opened the presents from Santa. They distanced themselves from her when she was barely cold, never even asking to wait until she was taken to the morgue. They never entered the house again, and they never spoke of her death to her brother (according to them) again. When they had the funeral, Patsy was heard to say to BR, while standing at the coffin "See, she looks perfect, doesn't she?"
    She did. All blonde curls and pink funeral parlor lipstick under the pink funeral parlor lamps. Frilly pink pageant dress and tiara. Just as perfect as that MyTwinn doll under the tree in its own "box", dressed just like JB in a frilly pageant dress and tiara on its blonde curls.
    Last edited by DeeDee249; 05-26-2012 at 02:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    They distanced themselves from her when she was barely cold, never even asking to wait until she was taken to the morgue. They never entered the house again, and they never spoke of her death to her brother (according to them) again. When they had the funeral, Patsy was heard to say to BR, while standing at the coffin "See, she looks perfect, doesn't she?"
    She did. All blonde curls and pink funeral parlor lipstick under the pink funeral parlor lamps. Frilly pink pageant dress and tiara. Just as perfect as that MyTwinn doll under the tree in its own "box", dressed just like JB in a frilly pageant dress and tiara on its blonde curls.
    Yet when BR was interviewed it went like this:
    What do you think happened to your sister?
    I know what happened to my sister. She was killed.
    But what happened?
    I know what happened.
    How she was killed? Have you talked to your parents about it?
    I asked my dad, Where did you find her body?
    He said, In the basement. I think someone took her down in the basement ... took a knife out (losing words, he made a slashing jesture) or hit her on the head. ST-ITRMI

    The inconsistensies never stop with this case from the moment they drove into the garage that fatal night. Odd that the knife belonged to BR and the flashlight was a gift from JAR. Sort of matches up to the 911 call that we all heard in the beginning before edit when we actually heard Burke ask "What did you find?" What an odd question to ask; instead of asking what is going on, don't you think?
    Last edited by Flatlander; 05-26-2012 at 08:26 PM. Reason: addition to statement

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flatlander View Post
    Yet when BR was interviewed it went like this:
    What do you think happened to your sister?
    I know what happened to my sister. She was killed.
    But what happened?
    I know what happened.
    How she was killed? Have you talked to your parents about it?
    I asked my dad, Where did you find her body?
    He said, In the basement. I think someone took her down in the basement ... took a knife out (losing words, he made a slashing jesture) or hit her on the head. ST-ITRMI

    The inconsistensies never stop with this case from the moment they drove into the garage that fatal night. Odd that the knife belonged to BR and the flashlight was a gift from JAR. Sort of matches up to the 911 call that we all heard in the beginning before edit when we actually heard Burke ask "What did you find?" What an odd question to ask; instead of asking what is going on, don't you think?
    Flatlander,
    He said, In the basement. I think someone took her down in the basement ... took a knife out (losing words, he made a slashing jesture) or hit her on the head. ST-ITRMI
    But not strangled her!

    Burke ask "What did you find?" What an odd question to ask; instead of asking what is going on, don't you think?
    I agree an odd question, obviously one right out of Columbo's notebook.

    This would suggest Burke is ignorant about something , but it cannot be JonBenet, since this is the subject of the 911 call. So it must refer to some object in the basement, something Burke knows exists to be discovered?

    IMO it refers to forensic evidence, Burke is asking indirectly is there anything to be found which links to the death of JonBenet?

    What else could it be, its a homicide, we know where the body was when Burke posed his question, looks to me as if the R's were rechecking their staging, and Burke was simply wanting parental assurance that nothing had been found?


    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    This is a myth that has LONG been around. This is what really happened. The myth was started by Detective Linda Arndt, who famously lost control of the crime scene. She was unable to figure out how to keep track of the house full of people, even though she had a gun and could easily have ordered them into one room.
    She "lost track" of JR for about 2 hours that morning, approx between 10 am and noon. During that time, she "thought" that JR must have gone to get his mail for no other reason than she saw him looking through mail when she "found" him again.
    For one- the Ramsey house had a MAIL SLOT in the front door through which mail was delivered right inside the house. They NEVER needed to "go and get mail". All they had to do was walk into the foyer and pick it up from the floor.
    Besides, would ANY parent of a kidnapped child who was supposedly waiting for a VERY important phone call actually leave the house to "go and get mail"?
    Of course, THIS child wasn't really kidnapped. She was dead in the basement at the time JR was missing and later "looking through his mail". And her parents knew there was going to be NO phone call.
    Still- at that time Arndt didn't know JB was dead in the basement and thought the kidnappers were still going to call. Yet she didn't think it "odd" that he would have left the house.
    JR never left the house, nor did he say he did. That was all a figment of Arndt's imagination. He was, however, "missing". Many people (including me) feel he was actually in the wineceller, bring her body into a more easily viewed position. Rigor and livor mortis tell us that she was placed on her back shortly after death, and that her position did not change. BUT she could have been pulled closer to the doorway later without that having been evident.

    As far as the "getaway" plans- to me, that SCREAMS guilty. Had they been truly concerned for the safety of their son and family, the police would have gladly provided that protection, or they could have hired security, all without leaving their dead child behind. INNOCENT parents would have been frantic in those first few days, frantic to talk to police, frantic to see that the investigation was in full gear and frantic to be cleared of suspicion. Yet- these two were oddly reticent. They did all they could to stall any police interviews and wouldn't allow them to talk to BR, whose bedroom down the hall from his sister gave him the opportunity to see and hear any "kidnappers".
    The fact is that the police WANTED to arrest the parents on the spot. Or at least that day. The DA refused to allow it and refused to grant a warrant for the arrest. Instead, he told the police to "treat theses people (the Ramseys) like victims and not like suspects.". So the police could not arrest them.
    And from the moment they walked out of that house (unsearched and unquestioned) they never looked back. They left their dead little girl under the Christmas tree, where little more than a day before she happily opened the presents from Santa. They distanced themselves from her when she was barely cold, never even asking to wait until she was taken to the morgue. They never entered the house again, and they never spoke of her death to her brother (according to them) again. When they had the funeral, Patsy was heard to say to BR, while standing at the coffin "See, she looks perfect, doesn't she?"
    She did. All blonde curls and pink funeral parlor lipstick under the pink funeral parlor lamps. Frilly pink pageant dress and tiara. Just as perfect as that MyTwinn doll under the tree in its own "box", dressed just like JB in a frilly pageant dress and tiara on its blonde curls.
    Nothing personal Dee-Dee but the last part of your post, which compares JonBenet with the MyTwinn Doll, is alsolutely creepy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by azwriter View Post
    Nothing personal Dee-Dee but the last part of your post, which compares JonBenet with the MyTwinn Doll, is alsolutely creepy.
    Yes it IS creepy. Have you ever seen these dolls? I have. Patsy ordered one for JB that Christmas, dressed up in a pageant dress and tiara. When JB opened the box, she tossed it aside, saying "that doesn't look like me". As if the poor child was horrified at the doll herself.
    In their book DOI, Patsy said that when she first saw the MyTwinn doll in its white box, she had a "premonition" of JB in a coffin. HER words, not mine.
    BTW, these dolls, as they are available today, can be seen here:http://www.mytwinn.com
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    Yes it IS creepy. Have you ever seen these dolls? I have. Patsy ordered one for JB that Christmas, dressed up in a pageant dress and tiara. When JB opened the box, she tossed it aside, saying "that doesn't look like me". As if the poor child was horrified at the doll herself.
    In their book DOI, Patsy said that when she first saw the MyTwinn doll in its white box, she had a "premonition" of JB in a coffin. HER words, not mine.
    BTW, these dolls, as they are available today, can be seen here:http://www.mytwinn.com
    That is creepy. The doll's eyes and Patsy's statement. Premonition, Patsy was nut's all right?

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    what happened at the funeral and not only that make me think more and more of MSBP

    The mother attempts to gain attention and recognition for herself by putting on the public façade of dedicated and loving mother. However, when alone with her child she will subject them to abuse, both physical and emotional, as she tries to deliberately make them sick.

    Indicators that a parent may be suffering from Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome include but are not limited to a discrepancy between the child’s medical records and what actually seems logical to have happened,


    The mother attempts to portray an outward image of perfection. She shows compassion and devotion to her child by giving up much or all of her time


    etc,etc
    I've been doing some research lately and I read a lot about MSBP...it starts to make sense re PR and everything what happened...

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    Also,I always felt that being Xmas played a big part in this...dunno why,just a feeling....maybe she was lonely,at Xmas time you need love,you want attention....JB was getting all of it,she was the beauty queen in that house...

    who got all the attention after the murder?why were the friends called over?the priest?to comfort HER....somehow I think she even liked the bad publicity....the whole world was paying attention....

    it's why some killers do it,isn't it?to be in the spotlight,doesn't matter that it's BAD publicity...

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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    Also,I always felt that being Xmas played a big part in this...dunno why,just a feeling....maybe she was lonely,at Xmas time you need love,you want attention....JB was getting all of it,she was the beauty queen in that house...

    who got all the attention after the murder?why were the friends called over?the priest?to comfort HER....somehow I think she even liked the bad publicity....the whole world was paying attention....

    it's why some killers do it,isn't it?to be in the spotlight,doesn't matter that it's BAD publicity...

    Attention is attention even if its negative....
    There are things that we don't want to happen but have to accept, things we don't want to know but have to learn, and people we can't live without but have to let go.

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    Publicity

    I have often times heard through out the years that there in no such thing as BAD publicity.

    Patsy being a drama queen took what she could get and obviously played it to the hilt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    Also,I always felt that being Xmas played a big part in this...dunno why,just a feeling....maybe she was lonely,at Xmas time you need love,you want attention....JB was getting all of it,she was the beauty queen in that house...

    who got all the attention after the murder?why were the friends called over?the priest?to comfort HER....somehow I think she even liked the bad publicity....the whole world was paying attention....

    it's why some killers do it,isn't it?to be in the spotlight,doesn't matter that it's BAD publicity...
    madeleine,
    If I thought all the above about Patsy I would have her diagnosed as suffering from some mental illness.

    I reckon all the drama stuff was Patsy's way of dealing with the death of JonBenet. This was her Persona, her interior representation of herself to the outer world.

    She was hiding behind all the friends, without them she had nobody to bounce off, there would have just been her and John!


    I do agree with you about Christmas though, something was the trigger, it could be the lack of videos or pictures, is a hint something else was going on?

    Why would that doll be ordered to be delivered to Access Graphics, thats one big smoking gun, what relationship does it have to Christmas?

    Why was a collection of JonBenet's photos deposited into the basement, someone was patently attempting to distance themselves from JonBenet?

    Some people think JonBenet was playing a surrogate adult role, and that Patsy was fully aware of this, e.g. pageants, and her ongoing sexualization, topped off with all the forensic evidence suggesting it was Patsy who deliberately asphyxaited JonBenet?

    So would Patsy be that immature as to be jealous of a six-year old girl, and end up whacking or semi-strangling her?


    There is stuff we do not know, lots of it is lying in an evidence-cage somewhere in a police depositary in Colorado. e.g. details about JonBenet's underwear!


    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    madeleine,
    So would Patsy be that immature as to be jealous of a six-year old girl, and end up whacking or semi-strangling her?

    There is stuff we do not know, lots of it is lying in an evidence-cage somewhere in a police depositary in Colorado. e.g. details about JonBenet's underwear!
    There are hugh dynamics in the jealousy factor and to answer you question
    madeleine, yes (sadly) it is entirely likely that PR was jealous of her 6 year old daughter, enough to kill her.

    I would love to know what is in the evidence vault! I was unware of the twinn doll being delivered to Acess Graphics. Learn something new everyday.
    Maybe it was delivered there because she as so large it would have been hard to hide it from JB coming via mail or ups. I don't know but a very good question/statement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flatlander View Post
    I have often times heard through out the years that there in no such thing as BAD publicity.

    Patsy being a drama queen took what she could get and obviously played it to the hilt.
    Flatlander, I have a thread you might be interested in:

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...ht=Che+Guevara
    Last edited by SuperDave; 05-30-2012 at 08:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    Flatlander,

    But not strangled her!


    I agree an odd question, obviously one right out of Columbo's notebook.

    This would suggest Burke is ignorant about something , but it cannot be JonBenet, since this is the subject of the 911 call. So it must refer to some object in the basement, something Burke knows exists to be discovered?

    IMO it refers to forensic evidence, Burke is asking indirectly is there anything to be found which links to the death of JonBenet?

    What else could it be, its a homicide, we know where the body was when Burke posed his question, looks to me as if the R's were rechecking their staging, and Burke was simply wanting parental assurance that nothing had been found?


    .
    Here's a different way to look at it. BR asks "What did you find?"

    Instead of asking about forensic evidence, it may be he was asking a simple open ended question, because he knew his parents were looking for something. IOWs one parent might have said something along the lines of "I'll check the basement" and BR asks, "What did you find?" Or one parent might have said "Look! I just found this" (This might have been said in reference to the RN) it would be natural for BR to ask what was found.
    I'm just playing detective here. I have no idea who killed JonBenet. It's just an opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrishope View Post
    Here's a different way to look at it. BR asks "What did you find?"

    Instead of asking about forensic evidence, it may be he was asking a simple open ended question, because he knew his parents were looking for something. IOWs one parent might have said something along the lines of "I'll check the basement" and BR asks, "What did you find?" Or one parent might have said "Look! I just found this" (This might have been said in reference to the RN) it would be natural for BR to ask what was found.
    I think you are correct. I have never felt it was JB's body that BR was asking about. For one, if he was involved, he knew there was a body. If he was not involved, he didn't know there was a body to be found. I agree that he was probably referring to the note. Even if he was involved in the death of his sister, I doubt the RN was his idea. If his parents covered up for him, the note was their idea.
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    Off Topic again, sorry ....

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    Flatlander, I have a thread you might be interested in:

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...ht=Che+Guevara
    Thanks again so much SD for taking the time for putting this link in my mail box. I cannot even begin to tell you how much you have hit home with your two links for me tonight.
    I mentioned this in an ealier post that before my father passed I told him I studied the death of JonBenet and he said to me " Oh, the little girl that looked like Marilynn Monroe." It really hurt me at the time he said it because I was SA by my father and I thought it was a sick statement to make of a little girl.
    But from your post it all makes complete sense (sadly) all of it! And you couldn't be more right on by hitting the nail on the head. It's one thing to think something, another to understand it. In order to understand it you have to have experienced it. I don't know how you know but obviously you do!Again, you SD
    Last edited by Flatlander; 05-31-2012 at 12:15 AM. Reason: double quote

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    I think you are correct. I have never felt it was JB's body that BR was asking about. For one, if he was involved, he knew there was a body. If he was not involved, he didn't know there was a body to be found. I agree that he was probably referring to the note. Even if he was involved in the death of his sister, I doubt the RN was his idea. If his parents covered up for him, the note was their idea.
    I can't help but get the mental picture of JR's behind in the air with only his underwear on; reading the note (off the floor) and BR being at the opposite side of the kitchen seeing this. At least that's the story the R's told.

    If, IMOO BR was involved I don't know that he wasn't sent to his room immediately and told to keep his mouth shut. This command could have been issued by the perp only.

    Why do you think JR would have snapped at BR and told him "We're not talking to you?"

    Just wondering ...... the conversation in and of itself with BR seemed very strange to me; like the whole case isn't odd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    madeleine,

    Why was a collection of JonBenet's photos deposited into the basement, someone was patently attempting to distance themselves from JonBenet?




    .
    I can't forget something I read in PMPT,it always comes back....I read that PR always used to say "take it down to the basement,I don't wanna see it anymore" whenever she wanted to get rid of something....

    makes you think,is this the reason JB was taken(dumped?) to the basement?
    was the location subconsciously chosen?

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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    madeleine,


    So would Patsy be that immature as to be jealous of a six-year old girl, and end up whacking or semi-strangling her?


    .
    not necessarily immature...maybe just sick...add to this being ill and tired and having a bad temper ....and feeling UNWANTED....kaboom,it's easy and it happens so often

    I never believed strangulation was an accident or just pure staging,it was real and the evidence supports it,she was alive when strangled.

    And to me it looks like an overkill,someone was very angry with JB.

    Now if JR was the one molesting her....why would he be the angry one?if it was about jealousy then my money is on PR or BR....who would hate JB because she was the center of attention (especially in daddy's eyes?)

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    The intruder theory is total bs,
    no intruder takes the time to feed his victim pineapple then abuse her, bash her head in, take some time to build an improvised garotte, then strangles the victim en then taking his time to write a 3 page ransom letter, play around with some blankets screw around take all the time i need, finally clean up and stage a crime scene make it look nice and tidy, all while that family is asleep upstairs?

    Intruder must have thought something like: "O my gosh she died I did not meant to skull fracture and strangle the last breath out of her, now I gotta make the best of it, improvise, adapt to the environment, Darwin, **** happens, I Ching, whatever man, we gotta roll with it."

    Medical examiners already stated that if JBR was brought to the ER in the condition she was in, the father would've been arrested right there and then because the chronic abuse was just so obvious.

    Wasn't strangling the poor kid and stage a kidnap much more convenient for their perfect image.

    Anyways, good luck sending your chronically abused child, who has just suffered a head trauma, to the emergency room for medical checkup, that will do.

    These parents dressed their kid up like a doll send her of to plastic surgery on her 4th, they treated the kid as their property to do with it as they please tells tale.

    Patsy treated her own daughter like a regular barbie doll and, well, daddy used her like a different kind of doll.

    It's just a question of this kid who shows all the warning signs of being a chronically abused child and what you choose you're going to believe whether some magic intruder theory did it.
    Last edited by LynnField; 05-31-2012 at 05:03 AM.

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  43. #23
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    JOHN: We worry about Burke longer term. We had him spend time with a child specialist. Kids have ways to bury this and it's black and white and they put it aside. Where it is going to affect Burke probably more so is when he is 40 years old and that's when we worry about it, long term.

    SCOTT: When he is what?

    JOHN: Forty. When he's older.


    actually,I totally agree with him,but I see it this way: if he was abused,if he killed his sis,if his sister was abused,if their mom was sick or if their dad was sick.....eventually the signs will be there...not NOW,he is way too young but definitely later....no matter how much therapy,no matter how deep you bury something so dark...it will come out one day,I am sure of it....if one of the above BR is the only hope left...

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  45. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    I can't forget something I read in PMPT,it always comes back....I read that PR always used to say"take it down to the basement,I don't wanna see it anymore" whenever she wanted to get rid of something....

    makes you think,is this the reason JB was taken(dumped?) to the basement?
    was the location subconsciously chosen?
    madeleine,
    Very good point. The location may have been subconsciously chosen, it certainly fits with Patsy being the driving force behind the staging, your point reinforces this belief.



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  47. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by madeleine View Post
    not necessarily immature...maybe just sick...add to this being ill and tired and having a bad temper ....and feeling UNWANTED....kaboom,it's easy and it happens so often

    I never believed strangulation was an accident or just pure staging,it was real and the evidence supports it,she was alive when strangled.

    And to me it looks like an overkill,someone was very angry with JB.

    Now if JR was the one molesting her....why would he be the angry one?if it was about jealousy then my money is on PR or BR....who would hate JB because she was the center of attention (especially in daddy's eyes?)
    madeleine,
    not necessarily immature...maybe just sick...add to this being ill and tired and having a bad temper
    I do not think I have seen any remarks regarding Patsy's frame of mind that night, e.g. at the White's.

    And to me it looks like an overkill,someone was very angry with JB.
    Yes, unless its mostly staging.

    Now if JR was the one molesting her....why would he be the angry one?if it was about jealousy then my money is on PR or BR....who would hate JB because she was the center of attention (especially in daddy's eyes?)
    If PDI, then I reckon Patsy was complicit, she was aware what was going on, so why be jealous of something that has your approval?

    This motive and the bedwetting while plausible lack coherence for me.


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