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  1. #46
    Auramyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri Mule View Post

    This is the best I have been able to find at this time. This comes from "The Crime Scene." Maybe I did imagine it. I apologize for misleading you.
    Oh, no, please don't apologize!

    In my post, I was trying to point out that I thought it was significant that the police included "late Saturday night into the morning of Sunday" as a timeframe for the crime.

    (I just figured I hadn't seen the info on the 9PM to 6AM, yet, and I was going to search it out.)

    I cerainly don't feel that your post was misleading. You and some others on this forum have been most informative!
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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri Mule View Post
    The information I have been getting recently points to at least two perpetrators.
    I have also for a long time believed that there are at least 2 perpetrators, but perhaps more- at least 2 involved in the abduction and 1 who murdered the women. I also believe that those who were sent to abduct the women may not have known that they were going to be murdered. If it is true that the police pretty much know what happened but don't have the evidence to prove it, this would make sense and fit with the statement they released earlier this year about this person not necessarily having a history of violence and that those close to him would never suspect that he would commit this type of crime. If they are referring to the person who abducted the women, and if the abductor did not know that the women would be killed, it would make perfect sense for this individual to not have a violent criminal record or be suspected by his family or friends.

    Someone without a history of violence does not go out one night and murder 3 women without making a mistake, pulling off a perfect crime.

  3. #48
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    I offer up the case of Cary Stayner and the Yosemite murders as an example of how one guy can abduct, murder and dispose of the bodies of three women with only a knife. He had no criminal record and a good standing in the community. He would have gotten clean away had he not committed another murder that was not nearly so well executed. I am using this example to illustrate that it is possible for one man to pull off such a crime without any criminal experience.

    The girls arived home at around 2:30 AM and appear to have gotten in bed as if everything was OK. We do not know for sure that Sherill was alive or alone in bed when the girls arrived. Was there someone hiding in her closet?, was Sherill already dead? We don't know. We only know that Stacy and Suzy went to bed as if everything was fine. We also know that Sherill did not expect Suzy to come home that night. (if Suzy let her know, it would have been after 2:00 AM). Even a total stranger would know that teenage girls don't always come home on Saturday nights. If some creep was "waiting for Suzy to get home" most likely he would "call it a night" before 2:30AM. This is strongly suggestive that nobody was "waiting" for Suzy to come home but it doesn't rule it out entirely.

    There was no sign of forced entry and no signs of a struggle. This again is highly suggestive that someone in the house let the perp in and he was able to control them with minimal struggle. It stands to reason that, confronted with a total stranger in their home, there would have been some resistance.

    All this leads to the conclusion that someone the women knew came by after the girls were in bed and someone in the home, who knew and trusted that person, (or persons) let them in where they were caught by surprise.

    I'll admit that there are other possible explainations and there may be information out that might change the above senerio, but I feel pretty strongly that this fits strongly with known facts.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by kemo View Post
    I offer up the case of Cary Stayner and the Yosemite murders as an example of how one guy can abduct, murder and dispose of the bodies of three women with only a knife. He had no criminal record and a good standing in the community. He would have gotten clean away had he not committed another murder that was not nearly so well executed. I am using this example to illustrate that it is possible for one man to pull off such a crime without any criminal experience.

    The girls arived home at around 2:30 AM and appear to have gotten in bed as if everything was OK. We do not know for sure that Sherill was alive or alone in bed when the girls arrived. Was there someone hiding in her closet?, was Sherill already dead? We don't know. We only know that Stacy and Suzy went to bed as if everything was fine. We also know that Sherill did not expect Suzy to come home that night. (if Suzy let her know, it would have been after 2:00 AM). Even a total stranger would know that teenage girls don't always come home on Saturday nights. If some creep was "waiting for Suzy to get home" most likely he would "call it a night" before 2:30AM. This is strongly suggestive that nobody was "waiting" for Suzy to come home but it doesn't rule it out entirely.

    There was no sign of forced entry and no signs of a struggle. This again is highly suggestive that someone in the house let the perp in and he was able to control them with minimal struggle. It stands to reason that, confronted with a total stranger in their home, there would have been some resistance.

    All this leads to the conclusion that someone the women knew came by after the girls were in bed and someone in the home, who knew and trusted that person, (or persons) let them in where they were caught by surprise.

    I'll admit that there are other possible explanations and there may be information out that might change the above scenario, but I feel pretty strongly that this fits strongly with known facts.
    A couple of points and I am familiar with the Stayner case.

    We don't know where Sherrill was after the phone call to the house at about 11:15 PM. She may not have been in the house when the girls arrived home. Stated differently, she may already have been abducted. We don't know if the girls talked to her when they arrived.

    Secondly, I have been getting some information (that I believe to be reliable) that there was in fact some signs of forced entry AND that there was some forensic evidence left behind. If that is true then it goes to the probability that it was someone known to the women.

    Minor point. I think it is more likely they arrived at about 2:50 AM as they didn't leave the Kirby house until 2:20 AM according to the mother. It is about 12 miles to the Delmar address from Battlefield.
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  5. #50
    Auramyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kemo View Post
    I offer up the case of Cary Stayner and the Yosemite murders as an example of how one guy can abduct, murder and dispose of the bodies of three women with only a knife. He had no criminal record and a good standing in the community. He would have gotten clean away had he not committed another murder that was not nearly so well executed. I am using this example to illustrate that it is possible for one man to pull off such a crime without any criminal experience.
    Controlling three women could be done using the elements of fear and surprise. If the perp was holding a gun to, lets say, Sherrill's head, and demanding Suzy and Stacy comply with his demands, then yes, I think it could happen. The girls would go along with him wanting to believe his promises of 'do as i say and no one will get hurt' or some such stuff. Despite what happens on tv, not everyone turns into a ninja when placed in a dangerous situation.

    There's also the example of the Groene's murder and kidnapping. Five people were ambushed, murdered, and attacked by a lone psycho.
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  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri Mule View Post
    Secondly, I have been getting some information (that I believe to be reliable) that there was in fact some signs of forced entry AND that there was some forensic evidence left behind. If that is true then it goes to the probability that it was someone known to the women.
    Does the sign of forced entry include something besides the front door? I've never been completely comfortable with the theory that the front door was the entrance/exit point.

    I would think that someone trying to get three women out of a house- and avoid detection- would use a darker entrance/exit point. Some place that was not well lit by the porch light and the yard light.
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auramyst View Post
    Does the sign of forced entry include something besides the front door? I've never been completely comfortable with the theory that the front door was the entrance/exit point.

    I would think that someone trying to get three women out of a house- and avoid detection- would use a darker entrance/exit point. Some place that was not well lit by the porch light and the yard light.
    Honestly, I don't know but two people whose knowledge of this case I trust have indicated there was some evidence of forced entry.

    There were also reports of some shady characters who were in the neighborhood that night and that a pocket knife was dropped by a window that might be used to cut the outside screen. As I recall they were scared off. It may or may not have had something to do with this crime. Which brings up the GJ3. I believe all three had histories of burglaries in their resumes. (And if my recollection is faulty, anyone can readily correct me. It is impossible to keep up with all of the news reports over the years.)

    We know for a certainty that at least one of the GJ3 had a rather sordid history of sexual assault. It has been postulated by another poster that a "sexual deviant" might be involved. I think that is entirely possible. There must have been some reason for the prosecutor to present those names to the 1994 grand jury. I don't know what it was or what reason or evidence was provided as there was no indictments handed down.

    I am more drawn to the idea that there is someone we haven't discussed much, if at all, who had formed some bond or friendship or other relationship with one or more of the women who could have gotten the door opened at that time of night. The story has become somewhat muddled over time and I wouldn't bet the farm on it but I think it should be strongly considered.

    I do believe that one or more of the "usual suspects" probably played a hand in the actual murders of the women later on. And I don't think any of these individuals was necessarily the brightest bulbs in the chandelier. But murder doesn't require a high IQ. Getting that door unlocked probably did.
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  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri Mule View Post

    I do believe that one or more of the "usual suspects" probably played a hand in the actual murders of the women later on. And I don't think any of these individuals was necessarily the brightest bulbs in the chandelier. But murder doesn't require a high IQ. Getting that door unlocked probably did.
    I would agree with this. I also don't necessarily think that the bodies are hidden in concrete anywhere or anything complicated like that. I was watching something recently about a college student who had disappeared and every field and body of water around her city was searched extensively. It wasn't until several years later (maybe 8?) that a hiker discovered her remains deep in a wooded area because he had ventured off of the marked trails. LE acknowledged that it was a stroke of luck that her remains were found, because if he hadn't gone off the trail in that exact spot, the woods were so deep that no one would have ever seen her. Anyone who has ever lived in the Ozarks knows how many thousands of acres of densely wooded areas there are around Springfield. I would put my dollar on them being in a remote (or at least secluded) wooded area.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaya View Post
    I would agree with this. I also don't necessarily think that the bodies are hidden in concrete anywhere or anything complicated like that. I was watching something recently about a college student who had disappeared and every field and body of water around her city was searched extensively. It wasn't until several years later (maybe 8?) that a hiker discovered her remains deep in a wooded area because he had ventured off of the marked trails. LE acknowledged that it was a stroke of luck that her remains were found, because if he hadn't gone off the trail in that exact spot, the woods were so deep that no one would have ever seen her. Anyone who has ever lived in the Ozarks knows how many thousands of acres of densely wooded areas there are around Springfield. I would put my dollar on them being in a remote (or at least secluded) wooded area.
    I agree. I think it's much riskier to dump the bodies in a construction area, and 'hope' nobody discovers them during the time between them being dumped and the concrete being poured.

    It's much less of a risk- and much easier- to bury or dump them in a secluded location. Especially a densely wooded location, where the chances of someone stumbling across them are much more remote.

    Of course, a body of water would do the same thing, if it was deep enough and remote enough.

    I agree with your theory, Jaya, they are in a remote, secluded, wooded area.
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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaya View Post
    I would agree with this. I also don't necessarily think that the bodies are hidden in concrete anywhere or anything complicated like that. I was watching something recently about a college student who had disappeared and every field and body of water around her city was searched extensively. It wasn't until several years later (maybe 8?) that a hiker discovered her remains deep in a wooded area because he had ventured off of the marked trails. LE acknowledged that it was a stroke of luck that her remains were found, because if he hadn't gone off the trail in that exact spot, the woods were so deep that no one would have ever seen her. Anyone who has ever lived in the Ozarks knows how many thousands of acres of densely wooded areas there are around Springfield. I would put my dollar on them being in a remote (or at least secluded) wooded area.
    That is certainly true. It can be so thick with vegetation that one could literally walk right over the remains and not even seen anything. And after 20 years and the animals there may be little to nothing left of the bones. It is said that some of these places are so dense with trees, bushes, and the like it is necessary to pipe in sunlight.
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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri Mule View Post
    Actually, they did release some information that we didn't previously have. They made it clear that there is one sole male individual whose whereabouts are unaccounted for during the time from about 9 PM to 6 AM the next morning. They want someone to talk to them about this person. I have read about everything ever published about this case and can never remember that they were this specific. From what I gather this person is not one of the "usual suspects" that have been discussed.
    Are you saying, according to the news article, there is one specific male that LE has identified in private (unknown to the public) that has unknown whereabouts the night of the crime?

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indianagirl View Post
    Are you saying, according to the news article, there is one specific male that LE has identified in private (unknown to the public) that has unknown whereabouts the night of the crime?
    All I can say (or know) is that a source that I have been in touch with has strongly indicated there is such a person and that he is someone not generally discussed. (Yes, I believe the police know his identity) I've tried everything to pry the name out but have been unsuccessful. However, one or more of the "usual suspects" were also strongly suspected as being involved, but apparently after the actual act of abductions.

    Hurricane may not want me to say this (and he is not my source) but I believe he knows the name of this male subject. He has done a lot of work on this case, having reviewed much material and I would go with what he brings to the table. He probably has more expertise about this case than anyone who has posted here.

    I will tell you this. I believe I know the names of the GJ3. But I can't definitively link them to the crime. And evidently neither could the prosecutor as he didn't bring indictments. How Cox figures in this I am not sure. For a long time I believed he could have been the sole perpetrator, and still hold out that possibility but the consensus of others is that he isn't. I am agnostic at this point.
    Last edited by Missouri Mule; 07-27-2012 at 12:17 AM.
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  13. #58
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    A helpful post from earlier discussions

    As a helpful reference, I'm going to post some threads from an earlier discussion referring to possible suspects:

    From this forum, thread 5, page 10, post #238:

    Kemo:
    I came up with the following list. These are names that have come up in various discussions. I have no idea if they include the "12".

    1) Gerald Carnahan: DOB 1958 Abducted, raped murdered and concealed body of Jackie Johns in Ozark Mo in 1985. No other known connection.
    2) Francis Robb: DOB ? killed three people in early 1990 And disposed of their bodies. This was apparently not sex related. He was convicted and died in prison.
    3) Ricky Evans: DOB ? Close friend of Robb who might have been involved in the triple murder. Later convicted of a different double murder (non-sexual) and disposing of bodies by feeding to hogs on his farm.
    4) Darrel Felton: DOB ? Friend of Evans, grandson of Robb. Was witness against Evans.
    All three above were meth using low-lifes who lived in the rural area east
    of Springfield.
    5) Melvin Cheney: DOB (early 1960's) convicted of 1/19/91 abduction/rape/murder/ with body disposal of Trudie Davis who was abducted from convenience store where she worked. There are two similar crimes in the general area (about an hour north of Springfield) that are unsolved that he is suspected of.
    6) Jesse Rush: DOB 1976 (brother of Melvin) convicted, with Melvin of the Trudie Davis caper. His statement implicated two other men who were never charged (Greg Cheevers and a Marshall Cheevers) and, in a letter to another inmate, made references to having killed several other women¯ Jesse and Melvin were living in Camden county Mo
    7) Robert Cox DOB 1960 History of Rape/murder in Fl+ other sex and property crimes. Serving long sentence in Texas. Made statements suggesting he knew something of murder but nothing solid. No known ties to women
    8) Stephen Eugene Garrison: DOB ? Raped a student in Springfield in 1993 serving 40 year sentence . He apparently claimed bodies were buried on Francis Robb's farm. No know connection to women.
    9) Mike Kovacs:, DOB 1975 Suzie's former boyfriend. Associated with of the
    Graverobbers. Supposedly had rock solid alibi
    10) Dustin Recla: Graverobber
    11) Michael Clay: Graverobber
    12) Joseph Riedel: Graverobber All three of the Graverobber have pretty well convinced LE they were not involved. Statements from LE claim they were cleared¯ but there are reports that some involved in the investigation feel they should be investigated further.
    13) 36-year-old man from Springfield (Grand Jury three)
    14) 28-year-old man from Kansas(Grand Jury three)
    15) 28-year-old man who was originally from Cedar County, Mo(Grand Jury three) the Grand Jury Three were recent paroles fm the Kansas system who arrived in Springfield a month before the abduction. As the Grand Jury is conducted in secret, it is not know what, if any connection they had to the crime but no indictment was issued.
    16) Bart Streeter: DOB 1965 Brother of Suzie, Long history of Substance abuse and minor crimes. Generally considered to have been leared¯ during initial investigation.
    17) Chris Revak DOB 1973 Committed suicide after arrest for sex related murder in Ava Mo. Is a strong suspect in two other similar murders, Internet rumors place him in Springfield area in 1992 but LE has played down any interest in him

    and then the following post:
    post #239:
    Missouri Mule:
    That's a pretty complete list. I can tell you that there is one duplicate on there if you look closely. I also do not believe the perps who murdered Trudy Darby were involved. And Revak wasn't on anyone's radar until he turned up dead in jail from a suicide.
    I would add to the list any known associates or related people to the elder Francis Robb as well, in particular two other people.

    and then a following post:
    Hmmmwhoknows:
    Add Ricky Eugene Dykes and Teddy Gale Roberts and Mike Hiram Henson to that list.

    I thought this might be helpful to folks as a reference to who's who and their possible connection in the 3MW case.
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  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri Mule View Post
    All I can say (or know) is that a source that I have been in touch with has strongly indicated there is such a person and that he is someone not generally discussed. (Yes, I believe the police know his identity) I've tried everything to pry the name out but have been unsuccessful. However, one or more of the "usual suspects" were also strongly suspected as being involved, but apparently after the actual act of abductions.

    Hurricane may not want me to say this (and he is not my source) but I believe he knows the name of this male subject. He has done a lot of work on this case, having reviewed much material and I would go with what he brings to the table. He probably has more expertise about this case than anyone who has posted here.

    I will tell you this. I believe I know the names of the GJ3. But I can't definitively link them to the crime. And evidently neither could the prosecutor as he didn't bring indictments. How Cox figures in this I am not sure. For a long time I believed he could have been the sole perpetrator, and still hold out that possibility but the consensus of others is that he isn't. I am agnostic at this point.
    Maybe you are interpreting SPD's statement incorrectly and reading too much into it. I'm not going to even confirm there is a mystery man, but assuming there is and I know his identity I'm not going to release that info publicly or privately and have it published on every forum that discusses this case within 15 minutes. If true, to do so would be jeopardizing this case.
    “Finding the occasional straw of truth awash in a great ocean of confusion and bamboozle requires intelligence, vigilance, dedication and courage. But if we don’t practice these tough habits of thought, we cannot hope to solve the truly serious problems that face us – and we risk becoming a nation of suckers, up for grabs by the next charlatan who comes along.” – Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane View Post
    Maybe you are interpreting SPD's statement incorrectly and reading too much into it. I'm not going to even confirm there is a mystery man, but assuming there is and I know his identity I'm not going to release that info publicly or privately and have it published on every forum that discusses this case within 15 minutes. If true, to do so would be jeopardizing this case.
    I didn't expect or want you to. I was just trying to be as responsive to the previous posts and knew that you more likely than not had the information I had been seeking. Assuming such a person existed, as I believe, I wanted to look into his background and see if I could make sense of this case.

    I think, like most who have looked at this case, we are just frustrated that it hasn't seen justice. Personally, I am out of ideas where to proceed. I appreciate your response and am going to step off the stage until new information is released.
    "Never answer an anonymous letter"

    "I didn't really say everything I said"

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