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    The Death Penalty and Canada

    Discuss it here.

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    forum rules:[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176372"]Post to all: PLEASE READ - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
    This bee my opinion

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    Thanks for starting a thread on this topic. I'm guessing that with the recent murder of foreign student Lin Jun, and the associated media attention, some people want to see the convicted murderer murdered. Capital punishment is not a deterrent. I'm not in favour of an eye for an eye, but I am interested in the reasoning behind the philosophy.

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    Thank you to the mods for separating out this topic.

    Although I'm not Canadian, my own country's* criminal justice system is very similar to Canada's because we both inherited our legal systems from Britain. The death penalty for Canada would strike me as a massive step backwards. Unlike many opponents of capital punishment, I'm not against it on the grounds of thinking that nobody deserves it. On the contrary, there are many people who I would be quite happy to see executed, and the Magnotta creature is one of them.

    So while I fully understand why some people are expressing disappointment that he can't be tried in China, or that Canada has abolished the death penalty, my head has to rule my heart here. Hard cases make bad laws. There should be no knee jerk reaction to call for a step backwards on the basis of the worst of the worst. The Canadian courts can make mistakes just as much as those of any other country, and what happens when you end up with an innocent person facing execution?

    *Ireland.

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    IMO i think the death penalty is too much of an 'easy way out' if u ask me. if they kill him, then he dies....thats it. i would rather him suffer for many many years. lock him up in solitary confinement 24/7 with access to NOTHING!! 4 walls & a locked door with maybe a tiny hole to throw him just enough amount of food/water to get him by each day. guess he'd need a toilet as well, but thats it. personally, if i had my way, i'd see to it that some sort of physical torture would be provided daily as well (beat his ass periodically or something like that). the death penalty seems like its doing him a favor.

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    Canada doesn't even have LWOP, does it?
    Last edited by PHB; 06-20-2012 at 05:16 PM. Reason: I hit enter before I was done typing...whoops!

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    Quote Originally Posted by PHB View Post
    Canada doesn't even have LWOP, does it?
    A first degree murder conviction results in a sentence such that the first opportunity to apply for parole is after 25 years. If the offender was young when convicted and made efforts to reform during the 25 years, there is a chance that the convict will be paroled. However, there is no guarantee that parole will be granted. It is conceivable that someone could be sentenced and never released from prison. There is also a provision in Canadian law such that a person is assigned the status of longterm offender or dangerous offender. That usually requires three offences of a similar, violent nature (the criteria can be found online). Dangerous offenders are never released.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PHB View Post
    Canada doesn't even have LWOP, does it?
    Well, we do have the label of "dangerous offender" and these people NEVER get out of prison. I'm certain LRM will receive this label for his crime(s).
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHB View Post
    Canada doesn't even have LWOP, does it?
    "Parole is an option available to all offenders since Canada does not have a life sentence without parole option. The offender will have to spend a prescribed amount of time in custody, depending on the offence. For the vast majority of offences, that period is one third of the total sentence imposed.[3] Parole is not automatic. The parole board in deciding whether to grant parole must consider, first and foremost, the protection of the public; secondary considerations are reinegration, rehabiliation and compassion.[4] Eligibility for parole is between 10 and 25 years for murder and 7 years for other life sentences or indeterminate sentences."
    [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parole_Board_of_Canada"]Parole Board of Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
    From Wickepedia however if LM can be declared a dangerous offender then his sentence will be indefinite like PB's is.
    http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/prg/cor/tls/dod-eng.aspx

    Injustice for Caylee Marie Anthony.

    Copyright that Cindy

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    I know Canada will not normally extradite a person who is eligible for the death penalty but they did in the case of Charles Ng.
    This is my opinion and to the best of my knowledge, that is, if I'm not joking.

    Stan Reid

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    Tory Sen. Patrick Brazeau has insinuated he would support reinstating the death penalty should Magnotta be found guilty of the charges against him. Do you side with Brazeau?

    Yes 85%


    No 15%

    http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/poll/index.html


    Sounds good to me.

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    Luka Magnotta long ago left Planet Normal and he embarked on a path of attention seeking that became less normal, while allegedly becoming more sordid and evil. If he at some point decided he wanted to go down in history as one of Canada’s most hideous monsters, Magnotta, if found guilty, at a very young age will have fulfilled his expectation.

    World-leading forensic psychologist Dr. Michael Stone recently joined our TV program to discuss where Magnotta ranks on this scale of depravity.

    If found guilty of his crimes, he ranks right at the top — or bottom, depending on how you look at it — of Dr. Stone’s scale of depravity.

    But I don’t want to dwell too long on Magnotta because that’s what he would want. I want to discuss what this says about us as a country.

    I know Pierre Trudeau scored lots of political points decades ago when he said he wanted Canada to become a Just Society.

    While some at the time simply dismissed it as a slogan, nobody is doing that today. Canada has become a just-perfect society for the Luka Magnottas of this world.
    http://www.torontosun.com/2012/06/21...s-a-cruel-joke

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    Quote Originally Posted by STANDREID View Post
    I know Canada will not normally extradite a person who is eligible for the death penalty but they did in the case of Charles Ng.
    Yes indeed they did, and Charles Ng has been in California for 21 years, since extradition in 1991, and he was sentenced to death in 1999 iirc.

    I am not for the death penalty, and Canada being soft on crime is debatable IMO, and is often cited around the world in such discussions related to Charles Ng and in that regard is an unfair criticism imo. I suggest a great book called Contempt of Court - The Betrayal of Justice in Canada that explains the "may be refused" codicil related to the death penalty being added to the Canada-US Extradition Treaty in 1976 by the US.

    Exploring the topic of the death penalty and Canada, in relation to Luka, it makes me wonder at the cost differences in what has been spent on Charles NG per year since being sentenced to death, versus what would have been spent per year if he was incarcerated in Canada.

    Ng was released early from Leavenworth in 1982. Between 82 and 85 it's estimated there were 11-25 torture murders by Ng and Leonard lake. Ng then fled to Canada and was arrested for his Cdn crimes in 1985, then had a 6 year extradition battle until he was sent to California in 1991. Then more legal battles until his trial in 1998 and then he was sentenced to death in 1999.

    Ng still sits on death row. I had read the US costs were at about 10 million by the time of the trial, with 6.6 million for the extradition efforts alone ( http://crime.about.com/od/murder/p/ng2.htm ), and that the trial cost 20 million ( [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Ng"]Charles Ng - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame] ). No idea if those are accurate, or what the Canadian costs were. The costs since his death sentence in 1999 interest me if anyone has them.

    Luka will obviously not be given a death penalty in Canada, but I believe he like Bernardo and others, will never step outside of prison JMO. Hard for me to say which would be "better", with all the factors involved, and what one feels would be "justice" as far as the consequences Luka will face. I know gut feelings of an eye for an eye come forth, and costs alone can't or shouldn't be a factor when considering the death penalty debate imo, but there can't be justice for innocent murdered Jun Lin and his poor family. Nothing could possibly done that would be justice for what happened. Of course all is JMO.

    Sorry for the lengthy post, it's an important topic imo and I couldn't do my usual brief reply.
    "I learned that it is the weak who are cruel, and that gentleness is to be expected only from the strong."~Leo Rosten

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    Some other countries don't have the death penalty either but I've heard that certain heinous criminals are sometimes shot while "trying to escape" or "killed by fellow inmates".
    This is my opinion and to the best of my knowledge, that is, if I'm not joking.

    Stan Reid

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    Quote Originally Posted by STANDREID View Post
    I know Canada will not normally extradite a person who is eligible for the death penalty but they did in the case of Charles Ng.
    I'm sure there is some wiggle room in the extradition laws.

    but there is no comparison here.

    Ng was an illegal immigrant who committed crimes on Canadian soil, was charged, convicted and sentenced here and served time. After his time is served - it's standard procedure to send him home. Had he come here as a refugee, fleeing the dealth penalty in the US - it might have turned out differently.

    Magnotta is a Canadian citizen who committed a crime in Canada. It has no connection to China (except that his victim was from there - but was in Canada at the time).

    China has no reason to charge him, no evidence to try him with and no claim to any extradition treaty.

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    Thanks for the info, otto.
    After some googling, I see Paul Bernardo got LWOP. I can't believe his wife only got 12 years, though. Michael Rafferty and Colonel Russel Williams, for example, are two murderers who would be on death row, or severing LWOP in the US (I don't follow Canadian crime much, those are the only two I know of). Both of them will be eligeble for parole after 25 years.
    Yves "Apache" Trudeau would certaintly been a DP case in the US. He committed 43 murders for various Canadian biker gangs, turned state's evidence and was allowed to plead to 43 manslaughters, and served 9 years. When he was released, he was given a new identity, and a few years later he raped a little boy, for which he was given 4 more years. He has since been released.
    I think a lot of Americans feel that Canada is "soft on crime". Whether or not that's a fair assessment, I don't know, what I listed above are only a few cases. Personaly, I would feel better knowing any of the above murderers would never be free again, be it DP or LWOP.

    BTW sorry I derailed this thread, it's about the death penalty, not LWOP. I'll thow my $0.02 in: as long as we're executing the right person, I have no problem with the DP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PHB View Post
    Thanks for the info, otto.
    After some googling, I see Paul Bernardo got LWOP. I can't believe his wife only got 12 years, though. Michael Rafferty and Colonel Russel Williams, for example, are two murderers who would be on death row, or severing LWOP in the US (I don't follow Canadian crime much, those are the only two I know of). Both of them will be eligeble for parole after 25 years.
    Yves "Apache" Trudeau would certaintly been a DP case in the US. He committed 43 murders for various Canadian biker gangs, turned state's evidence and was allowed to plead to 43 manslaughters, and served 9 years. When he was released, he was given a new identity, and a few years later he raped a little boy, for which he was given 4 more years. He has since been released.
    I think a lot of Americans feel that Canada is "soft on crime". Whether or not that's a fair assessment, I don't know, what I listed above are only a few cases. Personaly, I would feel better knowing any of the above murderers would never be free again, be it DP or LWOP.

    BTW sorry I derailed this thread, it's about the death penalty, not LWOP. I'll thow my $0.02 in: as long as we're executing the right person, I have no problem with the DP.
    Plea deals are made in Canada, just like in the US. A plea deal was made with Karla Homolka in order to prosecute Paul Bernardo. At the time, without Karla's testimony, there was not enough evidence against Bernardo.

    Rafferty will be eligible for parole after 25 years and there's a good chance he'll get it. He murdered one person. Although it's a high profile case, it's still nothing different from other first degree murder cases. At the same time that the Rafferty trial was going on, there was another case in Ontario where another young girl was murdered by a young man. That case received no coverage, most likely because the victim was a new immigrant and a couple of years older than 9. Unless Rafferty commits more crimes in prison, he'll probably be released in 25 years. This case cannot be grouped with people like Russell Williams.

    Russell Williams will probably not be released, at least not as long as anyone remembers his crimes and victims. He is a very dangerous, cunning man that will most likely victimize people again if he is released.

    If making a plea deal in Canada or the US means that Canada or the US is soft on crime, then both countries are soft on crime. A significant difference between US and Canadian (and European) legal philosophy is that Canada and Europe believe that criminals can be rehabilitated and gives people a chance at rehabilitation. It seems that in the US people have thrown their hands in the air and decided that there's nothing to be done, so criminals should either be executed or caged for the remainder of their lives. I think I like the philosophy of hoping for change better than throwing ones hands in the air and claiming that there's nothing to be done.

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    Here we go....an inside look at our prison system. Karla Homolka in 2000. Posing for the camera at Joliette Prison. Flowers and childrens toys. She looks so miserable, doesn't she?

    http://www.torontosun.com/2012/06/21...-new-book-says


    And people wonder why I'm for the death penalty........

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    Quote Originally Posted by PHB View Post
    Thanks for the info, otto.
    After some googling, I see Paul Bernardo got LWOP. I can't believe his wife only got 12 years, though. Michael Rafferty and Colonel Russel Williams, for example, are two murderers who would be on death row, or severing LWOP in the US (I don't follow Canadian crime much, those are the only two I know of). Both of them will be eligeble for parole after 25 years.
    Yves "Apache" Trudeau would certaintly been a DP case in the US. He committed 43 murders for various Canadian biker gangs, turned state's evidence and was allowed to plead to 43 manslaughters, and served 9 years. When he was released, he was given a new identity, and a few years later he raped a little boy, for which he was given 4 more years. He has since been released.
    I think a lot of Americans feel that Canada is "soft on crime". Whether or not that's a fair assessment, I don't know, what I listed above are only a few cases. Personaly, I would feel better knowing any of the above murderers would never be free again, be it DP or LWOP.

    BTW sorry I derailed this thread, it's about the death penalty, not LWOP. I'll thow my $0.02 in: as long as we're executing the right person, I have no problem with the DP.
    A lot of Canadians agree that we're soft on crime.

    Injustice for Caylee Marie Anthony.

    Copyright that Cindy

    Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot. Nothing is going to get better. It's not. Dr. Suess

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    it's state-sanctioned murder IMO

    if it's abhorrent & illegal for the population to do it, why is it then ok for the government to do it?

    I think Bernardo, Williams, Rafferty and a whole host of others deserve to die by firing squad but I'm not willing to give my government free reign to make that decision

    especially when I consider the innocent people who have been convicted of murder - Guy Paul Morin is one such case

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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyL View Post
    it's state-sanctioned murder IMO

    if it's abhorrent & illegal for the population to do it, why is it then ok for the government to do it?

    I think Bernardo, Williams, Rafferty and a whole host of others deserve to die by firing squad but I'm not willing to give my government free reign to make that decision

    especially when I consider the innocent people who have been convicted of murder - Guy Paul Morin is one such case
    The government wouldn't decide, the people would. The same 12 people who convicted the killer would decide if they live or die.

    If we trust our justice system then one must trust the proper decision is rendered in a trial.

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    I`m 100% in favour of the death penalty. Will it happen in my lifetime, probably not but my hope is that one day people will realize that housing and feeding these murderers who snuffed away the lives of innocent human beings does nothing to rehabilitate them and furthermore these same POS get out of prison to reoffend. (Amber Kirwan case).

    Yes, let`s tear down the old prisons and build new ones with freshly painted walls so these monsters can be fed 3 times a day and live in their freshly painted cells with new facilities available to them. Afterall, it is the humane thing to do, right. All with my money!

    No thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ~n/t~ View Post
    I`m 100% in favour of the death penalty. Will it happen in my lifetime, probably not but my hope is that one day people will realize that housing and feeding these murderers who snuffed away the lives of innocent human beings does nothing to rehabilitate them and furthermore these same POS get out of prison to reoffend. (Amber Kirwan case).

    Yes, let`s tear down the old prisons and build new ones with freshly painted walls so these monsters can be fed 3 times a day and live in their freshly painted cells with new facilities available to them. Afterall, it is the humane thing to do, right. All with my money!

    No thanks!
    The problem for me is that innocent people are sometimes convicted and sentenced to death. I would be I interested to hear your thoughts on this very real problem with the death penalty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigh Sister View Post
    The problem for me is that innocent people are sometimes convicted and sentenced to death. I would be I interested to hear your thoughts on this very real problem with the death penalty.
    I can't find accurate statistics anywhere for Canada. I'll keep researching though.

    Yes, there are/were wrongfully convicted people in prison but if we trust DNA and our justice system then if I were ever a juror in a trial with overwhelming evidence, I would definitely sentence the person to death.

    In this case, there is an alleged video showing the accused killer taking an innocent human being and brutally murdering him and dismembering him, sending body parts across Canada and then fleeing the country.

    If that is not enough to sentence him to death, I don't know what is.

    I can say the same with Tori Stafford's murderers. One confessed, the other wanted a trial and was convicted. Sitting in prison is a joke for these monsters. They had no right to take a little girl's life. None whatsoever.

    I brought up the Amber Kirwan case. The POS who murdered was convicted of murdering another man and let out on probation. Guess what? He wasn't rehabilitated. He murdered again. This time a beautiful young woman who had every right to be walking home from an outing with friends.

    Get these creeps off our streets once and for all! 6 feet under would be perfect.

    I won't even get into the ridiculous privacy laws in our country. I don't know if Mr. XYZ next door to me is a pedophile or not but yet his rights are protected but not mine or my childrens.

    What is wrong with this picture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ~n/t~ View Post
    The government wouldn't decide, the people would. The same 12 people who convicted the killer would decide if they live or die.

    If we trust our justice system then one must trust the proper decision is rendered in a trial.




    BBM

    That's the problem. No system is perfect and juries sometimes get it wrong.

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