Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 51

Thread: The Death Penalty and Canada

  1. #26
    kaRN's Avatar
    kaRN is offline Verified Health Professional - Registered Nurse
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Where the Mayor smokes crack
    Posts
    4,415
    Quote Originally Posted by STANDREID View Post
    Does Canada have the Whole Life Tariff? Britain does and it's the same thing as life without parole.
    If we do it goes under a different name. Our criminal justice system is modeled after yours so we may. We have something called Dangerous Offender Status and if someone is sentenced as that, they have an indefinite sentence.
    http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/prg/cor/tls/dod-eng.aspx

    Injustice for Caylee Marie Anthony.

    Copyright that Cindy

    Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot. Nothing is going to get better. It's not. Dr. Suess

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to kaRN For This Useful Post:


  3. #27
    kaRN's Avatar
    kaRN is offline Verified Health Professional - Registered Nurse
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Where the Mayor smokes crack
    Posts
    4,415
    Quote Originally Posted by PHB View Post
    Thanks for the info, otto.
    After some googling, I see Paul Bernardo got LWOP. I can't believe his wife only got 12 years, though. Michael Rafferty and Colonel Russel Williams, for example, are two murderers who would be on death row, or severing LWOP in the US (I don't follow Canadian crime much, those are the only two I know of). Both of them will be eligeble for parole after 25 years.
    Yves "Apache" Trudeau would certaintly been a DP case in the US. He committed 43 murders for various Canadian biker gangs, turned state's evidence and was allowed to plead to 43 manslaughters, and served 9 years. When he was released, he was given a new identity, and a few years later he raped a little boy, for which he was given 4 more years. He has since been released.
    I think a lot of Americans feel that Canada is "soft on crime". Whether or not that's a fair assessment, I don't know, what I listed above are only a few cases. Personaly, I would feel better knowing any of the above murderers would never be free again, be it DP or LWOP.

    BTW sorry I derailed this thread, it's about the death penalty, not LWOP. I'll thow my $0.02 in: as long as we're executing the right person, I have no problem with the DP.
    A lot of Canadians agree that we're soft on crime.

    Injustice for Caylee Marie Anthony.

    Copyright that Cindy

    Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot. Nothing is going to get better. It's not. Dr. Suess

  4. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to kaRN For This Useful Post:


  5. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    McWopetaz Metroplex, Illinois U. S. of A.
    Posts
    2,584
    I know Canada will not normally extradite a person who is eligible for the death penalty but they did in the case of Charles Ng.
    This is my opinion and to the best of my knowledge, that is, if I'm not joking.

    Stan Reid

  6. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to STANDREID For This Useful Post:


  7. #29
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    17,299
    2012-06-23

    Tory Sen. Patrick Brazeau has insinuated he would support reinstating the death penalty should Magnotta be found guilty of the charges against him. Do you side with Brazeau?

    Yes 85%


    No 15%

    http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/poll/index.html


    Sounds good to me.

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ~n/t~ For This Useful Post:


  9. #30
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    17,299
    Luka Magnotta long ago left Planet Normal and he embarked on a path of attention seeking that became less normal, while allegedly becoming more sordid and evil. If he at some point decided he wanted to go down in history as one of Canada’s most hideous monsters, Magnotta, if found guilty, at a very young age will have fulfilled his expectation.

    World-leading forensic psychologist Dr. Michael Stone recently joined our TV program to discuss where Magnotta ranks on this scale of depravity.

    If found guilty of his crimes, he ranks right at the top — or bottom, depending on how you look at it — of Dr. Stone’s scale of depravity.

    But I don’t want to dwell too long on Magnotta because that’s what he would want. I want to discuss what this says about us as a country.

    I know Pierre Trudeau scored lots of political points decades ago when he said he wanted Canada to become a Just Society.

    While some at the time simply dismissed it as a slogan, nobody is doing that today. Canada has become a just-perfect society for the Luka Magnottas of this world.
    http://www.torontosun.com/2012/06/21...s-a-cruel-joke

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ~n/t~ For This Useful Post:


  11. #31
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    17,299
    But we must not stop there; Canada should look into reinstating the death penalty for planned and deliberate murders where there is clear, unambiguous evidence of guilt.

    Some may argue death is too light a sentence for these criminals and a lifetime in prison is actually harsher.

    But consider the cost of keeping such criminals alive.

    Death may indeed be seen as an easy escape, but paying for their room and board for life is just as criminal.
    http://www.torontosun.com/2012/06/21...-death-penalty

  12. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to ~n/t~ For This Useful Post:


  13. #32
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    17,299
    Older article....


    OTTAWA - Two-thirds of Canadians support the death penalty, according to a recent poll, although less than half of the country wants the government to bring it back into Canadian law.

    Capital punishment jumped back into the news last week when Prime Minister Stephen Harper said in an interview he supported the death penalty.

    "I, personally, think there are times where capital punishment is appropriate," Harper told CBC, but insisted he had no plans to bring the measure back.

    Parliament banned capital punishment in 1976.

    Opposition parties slammed Harper's comments.

    "If Mr. Harper is genuinely in favour of capital punishment, then he should say so and bring a bill to floor of the House of Commons," Liberal MP David McGuinty said.

    It turns out such a bill would garner more support than Harper's Conservatives currently do in the polls.
    http://www.ottawasun.com/news/canada.../17031541.html

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to ~n/t~ For This Useful Post:


  15. #33
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Chicago, IL USA
    Posts
    1,467
    There are not many crimes that I feel merit capital punishment, I just don't feel an "eye for an eye" is the way that civilized society stays civilized. One of the few crimes I do feel merits capital punishment is the serial rape and molestation of young children; if you rob a child of their innocence and sense of safety security... Someone like Sandusky would meet my criteria for capital punishment.

  16. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to HastingsChi For This Useful Post:


  17. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    3,546
    Quote Originally Posted by STANDREID View Post
    I know Canada will not normally extradite a person who is eligible for the death penalty but they did in the case of Charles Ng.
    Yes indeed they did, and Charles Ng has been in California for 21 years, since extradition in 1991, and he was sentenced to death in 1999 iirc.

    I am not for the death penalty, and Canada being soft on crime is debatable IMO, and is often cited around the world in such discussions related to Charles Ng and in that regard is an unfair criticism imo. I suggest a great book called Contempt of Court - The Betrayal of Justice in Canada that explains the "may be refused" codicil related to the death penalty being added to the Canada-US Extradition Treaty in 1976 by the US.

    Exploring the topic of the death penalty and Canada, in relation to Luka, it makes me wonder at the cost differences in what has been spent on Charles NG per year since being sentenced to death, versus what would have been spent per year if he was incarcerated in Canada.

    Ng was released early from Leavenworth in 1982. Between 82 and 85 it's estimated there were 11-25 torture murders by Ng and Leonard lake. Ng then fled to Canada and was arrested for his Cdn crimes in 1985, then had a 6 year extradition battle until he was sent to California in 1991. Then more legal battles until his trial in 1998 and then he was sentenced to death in 1999.

    Ng still sits on death row. I had read the US costs were at about 10 million by the time of the trial, with 6.6 million for the extradition efforts alone ( http://crime.about.com/od/murder/p/ng2.htm ), and that the trial cost 20 million ( [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Ng"]Charles Ng - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame] ). No idea if those are accurate, or what the Canadian costs were. The costs since his death sentence in 1999 interest me if anyone has them.

    Luka will obviously not be given a death penalty in Canada, but I believe he like Bernardo and others, will never step outside of prison JMO. Hard for me to say which would be "better", with all the factors involved, and what one feels would be "justice" as far as the consequences Luka will face. I know gut feelings of an eye for an eye come forth, and costs alone can't or shouldn't be a factor when considering the death penalty debate imo, but there can't be justice for innocent murdered Jun Lin and his poor family. Nothing could possibly done that would be justice for what happened. Of course all is JMO.

    Sorry for the lengthy post, it's an important topic imo and I couldn't do my usual brief reply.
    "I learned that it is the weak who are cruel, and that gentleness is to be expected only from the strong."~Leo Rosten

    “If you judge people, you have no time to love them.” ~Mother Teresa of Calcutta


    "Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one." ~ Marcus Aurelius

  18. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Flossie JMO For This Useful Post:


  19. #35
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    McWopetaz Metroplex, Illinois U. S. of A.
    Posts
    2,584
    Some other countries don't have the death penalty either but I've heard that certain heinous criminals are sometimes shot while "trying to escape" or "killed by fellow inmates".
    This is my opinion and to the best of my knowledge, that is, if I'm not joking.

    Stan Reid

  20. The Following User Says Thank You to STANDREID For This Useful Post:


  21. #36
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    4
    Hello all, new member.

    It was actually this thread that caught my attention while browsing forums on my iPhone the other day. I am Canadian and this entire case has been the subject of a lot of debate amongst the people I know, and it has brought back up the Death Penalty discussion again.

    Personally, I don't agree with the Death Penalty. My view has absolutely nothing to do with the perpetrator's of the horrible crimes not deserving death, they most likely do deserve it. But my belief is that we, as a society, need to be above the actions (and morals) of the worse members of society. So I'm personally relieved that we don't have the death penalty option here.

    What I do wish we would have is consecutive sentencing options, full life sentences that are real life sentences. (Yes I know Bernardo will never get out, but many others who didn't get his press probably will.). As a Canadian, I feel there is a lot about our criminal justice system that needs work and could be improved upon, but I don't think that reinstating the death penalty is the way to go. I just don't think it really makes any sense. From what I understand from my friends in America, and what I can read up on, it's more costly to keep someone on death row, and cost more to put someone to death than to simply imprison them for the rest of their lives. (I may be wrong on that, it's just my understanding) It does nothing to discourage others from murdering. It just doesn't really do what all the proponents of it claims it does.

    It is simple retribution, nothing more. Again, to herald back to my original point, it's not about what it says about the condemned, it's about what it says about us.

  22. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to SLM For This Useful Post:


  23. #37
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    663
    I am another Canadian who feels that our criminal justice system is a joke. Punishments are not nearly harsh enough and conditions (for some) not harsh enough.

    Russel Williams, Pickton, Bernardo and similar devils should be given the death penalty IMO. There is nothing to be gained by their continued life, and no hope of rehabilitating them. And no doubt of their guilt. They are drain on tax dollars and taking up space that at another person could use. I don't feel its "an eye for an eye".

    Regarding Rafferty, Thomas Hurst, etc I think they should spend their lives in prison. I don't think the possibility of parole should exist for them. Although I am unsure about whether I think someone who has at least admitted his crime and acnowleged that it was wrong, should perhaps have a chance of parole (like Hurst). But the likes of Rafferty should spend their lives in a cage. After 25 years he will be plenty young enough to start a new life, and rape another child.

    Hurst's case is near to my heart. I hope every day of his life in jail is a living nightmare.

  24. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to airplanelamp For This Useful Post:

    OEJ, SLM

  25. #38
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    4
    Quote Originally Posted by airplanelamp View Post
    I am another Canadian who feels that our criminal justice system is a joke. Punishments are not nearly harsh enough and conditions (for some) not harsh enough.
    I don't know that I'd go so far as to call it a joke, but there are definitely many areas in which it can be improved upon. Sentencing guidelines definitely being one of them. This is one recent example where the sentence just does not fit the crime.

    http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Ottawa+...#ixzz269sAbRuq

    Russel Williams, Pickton, Bernardo and similar devils should be given the death penalty IMO. There is nothing to be gained by their continued life, and no hope of rehabilitating them. And no doubt of their guilt. They are drain on tax dollars and taking up space that at another person could use. I don't feel its "an eye for an eye".
    Respectfully, there are a lot of people that are drain on tax dollars, doesn't mean we should put them to death though. Don't misunderstand me, I completely get the sentiment. All of the above that you've mentioned I felt the urge to see harm come to them, anyone would, but, in my humble opinion, I think how we feel needs to be tempered before we act, particularly when that action reflects upon the whole of society.

    Again that's my own take on it and I do understand and respect your point of view, I just don't quite agree with it.


    Quote Originally Posted by FrayedKnot View Post
    @otto;

    While I agree with the philosophy of rehabilitation, I am not sold on the reality.
    Like with all things, we need to "get them while they're young". That's where we stand the best chance of rehabilitating someone. It's really all about the intervention.


    I think the legal system in the US, however is good. And, sure, it can be better. But I'd rather be tried here than in almost any other country, Canada excepted.
    I think the principles found in the legal system within both nations do not differ all that greatly, if at all. I would have every expectation of a 'fair trial' in Canada, the US, Great Britain.

    (I also dig Canada's healthcare ).
    It's not all it's cracked up to be, lol.

  26. The Following User Says Thank You to SLM For This Useful Post:


  27. #39
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    COLA, SC
    Posts
    80
    IMHO the death penalty is no punishment really. so u kill the criminal? he suffers a few seconds, then hes dead. he gets off way to easy w/ the death penalty. now LWOP.....solitary confinement....thats REAL punishment if u ask me. mix in a daily dose of some sort of torture & that would be even better IMO!

  28. #40
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    3,546
    Quote Originally Posted by airplanelamp View Post
    I am another Canadian who feels that our criminal justice system is a joke. Punishments are not nearly harsh enough and conditions (for some) not harsh enough.

    Russel Williams, Pickton, Bernardo and similar devils should be given the death penalty IMO. There is nothing to be gained by their continued life, and no hope of rehabilitating them. And no doubt of their guilt. They are drain on tax dollars and taking up space that at another person could use. I don't feel its "an eye for an eye".

    Regarding Rafferty, Thomas Hurst, etc I think they should spend their lives in prison. I don't think the possibility of parole should exist for them. Although I am unsure about whether I think someone who has at least admitted his crime and acnowleged that it was wrong, should perhaps have a chance of parole (like Hurst). But the likes of Rafferty should spend their lives in a cage. After 25 years he will be plenty young enough to start a new life, and rape another child.

    Hurst's case is near to my heart. I hope every day of his life in jail is a living nightmare.
    JMO it's not a joke, and personally, I would put Rafferty in the same category as Bernardo, Pickton and Williams. JMO
    "I learned that it is the weak who are cruel, and that gentleness is to be expected only from the strong."~Leo Rosten

    “If you judge people, you have no time to love them.” ~Mother Teresa of Calcutta


    "Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one." ~ Marcus Aurelius

  29. #41
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    3,546
    Quote Originally Posted by KDOGG View Post
    IMHO the death penalty is no punishment really. so u kill the criminal? he suffers a few seconds, then hes dead. he gets off way to easy w/ the death penalty. now LWOP.....solitary confinement....thats REAL punishment if u ask me. mix in a daily dose of some sort of torture & that would be even better IMO!
    ITA re death penalty and the concept of penalty.
    "I learned that it is the weak who are cruel, and that gentleness is to be expected only from the strong."~Leo Rosten

    “If you judge people, you have no time to love them.” ~Mother Teresa of Calcutta


    "Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one." ~ Marcus Aurelius

  30. The Following User Says Thank You to Flossie JMO For This Useful Post:


  31. #42
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    BC -- for now
    Posts
    4,076
    Quote Originally Posted by airplanelamp View Post
    They are drain on tax dollars...

    it actually costs more to put someone to death (lawyers, appeals, etc) than to incarcerate for life...

    here are some US stats: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty
    *** THIS POST IS ONLY FOR USE ON WEBSLEUTHS -- PLEASE DO NOT LINK OR COPY IT ELSEWHERE ***


  32. #43
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    663
    Quote Originally Posted by redheadedgal View Post
    it actually costs more to put someone to death (lawyers, appeals, etc) than to incarcerate for life...

    here are some US stats: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty
    I don't think that is accounting for the costs of building the facilities though. Canadian prisons are VASTLY over crowded. At least where I am. People are sleeping on floors. Regardless of cost, I am still in favor of putting to death those who have grossly disregarded human life, over and over again. They space they occupy and the resources they drain could be better used for someone else. Perhaps if our prisons weren't so over crowded there would be more hope of rehabilitating those who have some potential.

    I have seen the evil of these men face to face. Knowing they are alive and breathing makes me want to vomit. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

  33. The Following User Says Thank You to airplanelamp For This Useful Post:

    OEJ

  34. #44
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    BC -- for now
    Posts
    4,076
    Quote Originally Posted by airplanelamp View Post
    I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

    i don't believe i stated how i felt about the DP. i merely provided stats to refute an incorrect assertion.
    *** THIS POST IS ONLY FOR USE ON WEBSLEUTHS -- PLEASE DO NOT LINK OR COPY IT ELSEWHERE ***


  35. #45
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    105
    Any kind of serious punishment does act as a detriment to crime - for the average person (imo). The idea of consequences for most adults is very real.

    For the person who's going to commit the crime anyway - I can't see how a death penalty would be a detriment. Hasn't worked so far, ever, in all of history. Neither has life imprisonment.

    I separate the "detriment" from the issue and come up with the reality that when we, as a society, seek to kill another person, we contradict our own laws.

    I'm very glad that Canada doesn't have the death penalty. But agree with many posters that appropriate punishment for murder (violent murder in particular) and many other crimes here is too lax.

  36. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Katie-L For This Useful Post:


  37. #46
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    105
    Quote Originally Posted by STANDREID View Post
    I know Canada will not normally extradite a person who is eligible for the death penalty but they did in the case of Charles Ng.
    I'm sure there is some wiggle room in the extradition laws.

    but there is no comparison here.

    Ng was an illegal immigrant who committed crimes on Canadian soil, was charged, convicted and sentenced here and served time. After his time is served - it's standard procedure to send him home. Had he come here as a refugee, fleeing the dealth penalty in the US - it might have turned out differently.

    Magnotta is a Canadian citizen who committed a crime in Canada. It has no connection to China (except that his victim was from there - but was in Canada at the time).

    China has no reason to charge him, no evidence to try him with and no claim to any extradition treaty.

  38. #47
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    21,165
    Even if the death penalty was re-introduced to Canada, it would not apply to Magnotta because has been diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic. Canada recognizes that mentally ill people are not responsible for their actions.

  39. #48
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    105
    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    Even if the death penalty was re-introduced to Canada, it would not apply to Magnotta because has been diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic. Canada recognizes that mentally ill people are not responsible for their actions.
    That's not really accurate.

    Canada recognizes situations when mentally ill people are not responsible for their actions and can order permanent or temporary confinement based on whether the person is a danger to society - but that's not every situation.

    Not all mentally ill people are deemed "ncr". Mental illness, in itself, doesn't excuse criminal activity. Mentally ill people can be sentenced to prison, so long as they have access to treatment while in prison. Their illness may or may not mitigate their sentence.

    With Schizophrenia (a biological disease that manifests itself as mental impairment) - NCR is only relevant when a person commits a crime during a break with reality and because of that break with reality.

    Even then, they can be deemed dangerous to society and sentenced to a medical facility - indefinitely.

    The Canadian justice system is not permitted to knowingly release a dangerous person back into society - ever.

    http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-561-...tion-a-eng.htm
    "Courts and Review Boards

    Available Canadian studies on the criminal courts tend to focus on fitness hearings and cases involving individuals not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder, rather than the number of individuals with symptoms of mental illness who have appeared in criminal courts. As indicated earlier, not all individuals with mental illness would be found unfit to stand trial or not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder." (source link above)

  40. #49
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    21,165
    Quote Originally Posted by Katie-L View Post
    That's not really accurate.

    Canada recognizes situations when mentally ill people are not responsible for their actions and can order permanent or temporary confinement based on whether the person is a danger to society - but that's not every situation.

    Not all mentally ill people are deemed "ncr". Mental illness, in itself, doesn't excuse criminal activity. Mentally ill people can be sentenced to prison, so long as they have access to treatment while in prison. Their illness may or may not mitigate their sentence.

    With Schizophrenia (a biological disease that manifests itself as mental impairment) - NCR is only relevant when a person commits a crime during a break with reality and because of that break with reality.

    Even then, they can be deemed dangerous to society and sentenced to a medical facility - indefinitely.

    The Canadian justice system is not permitted to knowingly release a dangerous person back into society - ever.

    http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-561-...tion-a-eng.htm
    "Courts and Review Boards

    Available Canadian studies on the criminal courts tend to focus on fitness hearings and cases involving individuals not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder, rather than the number of individuals with symptoms of mental illness who have appeared in criminal courts. As indicated earlier, not all individuals with mental illness would be found unfit to stand trial or not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder." (source link above)
    Below are examples of how mental illness is treated in the Canadian justice system. Mental illness is taken seriously, and someone with mental illness is routinely considered not responsible for their actions. Paranoid schizophrenia is far more serious than depression, so advocating the death sentence because a schizophrenic committed a very bizarre murder seems pointless.

    "McConnell remains at Alberta Hospital ... McConnell, 34, was convicted last year of manslaughter in the drowning deaths of her two young sons, 10-month-old Jayden and Connor, 2-1/2, in their Millet home sometime between Friday, Jan. 29 and Monday, Feb. 1, 2010. The children’s bodies were found inside the home by their father after Allyson McConnell jumped off an Edmonton overpass in an apparent suicide attempt.

    She was convicted of manslaughter after a trial last year, where Justice Michelle Crighton concluded the depressed mother may not have had the requisite level of intent for murder.

    McConnell was sentenced to six years on each manslaughter charge, with the sentences running concurrently. The prison term was reduced to a 15-month jail sentence, given the time McConnell had already spent at Alberta Hospital after her arrest."

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...883/story.html


    "Greyhound bus killer Vince Li is now allowed to go on short, escorted outings from the Manitoba mental hospital where he has been committed.

    Li, who has schizophrenia, was sent to the Selkirk Mental Health Centre after being found not criminally responsible of beheading Tim McLean, 22, a fellow passenger on a Greyhound bus near Portage La Prairie, Man., in July 2008."

    http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/05...n_1525555.html

  41. #50
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Coffeelandia
    Posts
    4,522
    Quote Originally Posted by LadyL View Post
    it's state-sanctioned murder IMO

    if it's abhorrent & illegal for the population to do it, why is it then ok for the government to do it?

    I think Bernardo, Williams, Rafferty and a whole host of others deserve to die by firing squad but I'm not willing to give my government free reign to make that decision

    especially when I consider the innocent people who have been convicted of murder - Guy Paul Morin is one such case
    I love your post.
    Don't take yourself so seriously... nobody else does.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •