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Thread: Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes Are Divorcing

  1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kat View Post
    Well if this is accurate reporting the shizz is going to HIT the fan.

    http://www.monstersandcritics.com/pe...nt-application

    she's playing hard b-a-l-l. Dang.

    Happy Birthday Tom. yikes.
    Quote Originally Posted by prima.facie View Post
    i have not been in a child custody situation...so can someone who is in the know explain what an "emergent application" is....and does that mean she fears her daughter is in danger?

    i guess i could google it all, but i like hearing members thoughts...

    ETA....i posted that ^^ before fully reading article.

    alright who is up for a trip to NY to sit in on that open court? lol
    If true, here's what it means: It means that immediate court orders as to child custody and support are necessary to avoid detriment to the child and that some sort of imminent harm will occur without them. It means that the parent filing alleges that waiting for a regular, noticed hearing, which usually occurs no less than 30 days after the other parent is served with the declarations and paperwork stating what the filing spouse wants and why, would be detrimental to the child.

    In CA, child support cannot be determined via an emergency hearing. Not sure about NY. Child custody orders can be and are in both states.

    I agree with the article that it indicates the filing party feels there will be no settlement but I disagree that it means there can be no settlement, That's just false. The parties can have their lawyers negotiate or they can talk and settle, at any stage of the litigation.

    It is also not true that this has to occur in open court. Many high profile people petition for sealed proceedings and win the right to such when minor children are involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
    I could easily see a video made of Suri saying that she doesn't want to see her mother anymore because she beats her, starves her and any other bad parenting they can make up.Then put her on a Seaorg boat and sent off.
    I have no problem that TC could believe that the horrible Seaorg conditions are there to help people start to "clear" themselves and that stiff punishments are necessary. IMO, he could easily see this as being a good father to her.

    The church is very good at muddying the waters for court cases. In France 3 years of documents from a Scientology lawsuit, that hurt Scientology, "disappeared", but were found again by the judge when the plaintiffs lawyers started applying pressure. The judge said she dropped the case because she'd received letters from the plaintiffs saying they no longer wished to sue the church. All of the plaintiffs deny ever having written such letters. Also interesting is that none of the documents favorable to Scientology were ever lost.

    Katies attempts to get her daughter back could face years and years of litigation and by the time she gets to see Suri, the kid will tell everyone what she's been brainwashed to say. Katie will also have everything negative that she said during auditing sessions made public and depending on what they are, used against her in a child custody battle.

    All just my own opinion.
    Respectfully snipped for space and BBM. As a family law attorney I can tell you that the bolded parts will not occur.

    No family court judge is going to allow one parent to ship off their child and then be tied up in litigation for years before seeing their child. It just will not happen.

    First of all, you can't take your kid out of the jurisdiction without a court order, during the pendency of a court case. Second, interim court orders as to child custody are issued quickly in dissolution cases and unless absolute proof of abuse can be shown, each parent will get consistent and regularly occurring time with their child.

    A tape of Suri saying how horrid her mom is would not be enough to prove any abuse on the part of the mother. To most family court judges, it would prove alienation on the part of the father and his rights would likely be curtailed.

    Katie could ask the court to disregard reports on confidential auditing sessions or any other church info, and the court would definitely be inclined to grant such a request as such are considered privileged, religious confessions.

    Further, even if the court did, for some reason, get wind of things Katie has divulged privately, (which happens every day in child custody cases as spouses turn on each other), unless those confessions were very recent and include confessions about drug abuse, child abuse, alcohol abuse, threats to harm herself or her child or violence against her husband, they will be highly unlikely to preclude child custody at this time.

    Finally, even if the court found merit in bizarre allegations on the part of TC, Katie would not go months or years tied up in litigation before seeing her kid. She would have, at a very minimum, supervised visits on a regular basis. And there is no way in he!! that the court would grant a request that a 6 year old child in the middle of a custody battle, be put on a boat for months or years or even weeks. It is just not going to happen.

    The only custody cases that involve a scenario remotely close to what you you are describing are those involving international child abduction cases like Sean Goldmans', in nations that are paying lip service to the Hague Convention.

    For the reasons I listed previously, TC is not going to abduct Suri.

    I can only give you my professional opinion based on my experience as a family law attorney. You can choose to trust me, or not.

    Katie is going to be granted custody of Suri. TC will be granted joint custody or very, very liberal visitation rights.

    It is unlikely that any significant restrictions on Suri's ability to participate in church activities will be ordered, unless Katie can prove harm has already been occurring as a result of such activities, though she may be able to try in the future if she can laetr prove such harm is occurring.

    If Katie does not fight hard enough and long enough or if she lacks the resources to continue on, there is a good chance that TC could slowly alienate Suri over time from her mother and cause her to want to spend less time with her mother and more with the church and TC. Court orders will prevent even an alienated Suri from joining Sea Org. until she is 18 or emancipates, but in a few years, she could be sufficiently alienated that we see an Alec Baldwin type situation where Suri refuses to see much of her mother and the courts indulge her wishes via matching court orders.

    Katie then would need to mount a huge attack against Scientology and it's affects and prove harm to her daughter and her relationship with her has been occurring as a result of the church.

    This will be very costly and very hard to do and if Suri is sufficiently alienated, she still may fail at primary custody or much visitation because the court can deem it to be too much of a risk of further detriment to an alienated child to force contact.

    But remember this, if Katie lacks the funds to pay for this level of litigation, while TC does, he will have to contribute to her fees.
    Last edited by gitana1; 07-04-2012 at 07:14 PM.
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  3. #252
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    When the news first broke, the media reported that TC's and NK's children address NK, as "N" and call KH, Mom.

    This is so absurd and is so disrepectful to N. So what will these children call K now?

    Your mom is your mom, regardless of whom your parents are married to.

    I can only imagine whose idea this was.

    IMO

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  5. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
    Since it appears that the case is going to be tried in NYS I hope Katie pulls a Tony Soprano. In one episode of the Sopranos Tony and Carmella are talking about having a divorce. Tony goes to every high profile divorce attorney in the area and just discusses his case a little with them. This blocked Carmella from hiring any of them because they had already discussed the case with Tony.



    BBM

    This would probably be in the article; Ms. Holmes, who was trying to divorce Mr. Cruise was found dead in her apartment of 24 self inflicted axe wounds to her skull.

    The other option is to just make her disappear. Getting anyone in Scientology to talk about it would be akin to attempting to move the Great Wall of China with a toothpick. JMO
    No kidding. $cieno$ are a super skeery bunch. People seem to end up real bad dead when they cross them.

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  7. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
    Since it appears that the case is going to be tried in NYS I hope Katie pulls a Tony Soprano. In one episode of the Sopranos Tony and Carmella are talking about having a divorce. Tony goes to every high profile divorce attorney in the area and just discusses his case a little with them. This blocked Carmella from hiring any of them because they had already discussed the case with Tony. Totally smart idea!!!

    BBM

    This would probably be in the article; Ms. Holmes, who was trying to divorce Mr. Cruise was found dead in her apartment of 24 self inflicted axe wounds to her skull. LOL!!

    The other option is to just make her disappear. Getting anyone in Scientology to talk about it would be akin to attempting to move the Great Wall of China with a toothpick. JMO
    My comments in purple.
    For Travis Alexander, a human being. Justice will prevail.


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  9. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by gitana1 View Post
    That's right. But I addressed why such a thing would be highly unlikely to happen. How do you feel about my rationale? Do you think there would be no worldwide outcry? No super-intensive investigation? No onslaught of publicity so fatal to the group that it would lead to the loss of billions in revenue from people leaving the group and people failing to join?

    Right now, besides high-profile celeb involvement, Scientology is not that well known to many and thus, when approached about it, millions are still likely to be open-minded and take the personality test or try auditing as a means of trying something new to fix whatever problems they have.

    Katie Holmes having an "accident" would surely prevent many of those people from ever giving this org a chance.

    Again, this is, primarily, a money-making business. They make critical decisions based on the economic benefit to the org, IMO. What's your opinion about that? Do you agree? Disagree?
    I do agree, gitana - and I hope we're right!

    It is also because of this I believe TC will be strongly encouraged to get this matter settled as quickly and quietly as possible. Just consider how much we've learned about scientology in the few short days since news of the divorce hit the media. The "church" doesn't want this kind of scrutiny.

    You gotta wonder, with Tom facing divorce #3, does it occur to him that perhaps this "religion" isn't really working for him?
    ~~~Cynical Optimist~~~

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  11. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by gitana1 View Post
    If true, here's what it means: It means that immediate court orders as to child custody and support are necessary to avoid detriment to the child and that some sort of imminent harm will occur without them. It means that the parent filing alleges that waiting for a regular, noticed hearing, which usually occurs no less than 30 days after the other parent is served with the declarations and paperwork stating what the filing spouse wants and why, would be detrimental to the child.

    In CA, child support cannot be determined via an emergency hearing. Not sure about NY. Child custody orders can be and are in both states.

    I agree with the article that it indicates the filing party feels there will be no settlement but I disagree that it means there can be no settlement, That's just false. The parties can have their lawyers negotiate or they can talk and settle, at any stage of the litigation.

    It is also not true that this has to occur in open court. Many high profile people petition for sealed proceedings and win the right to such when minor children are involved.

    *****snipped******

    thanks much for your insight....see, much better than the ol' google!
    dum spiro, spero

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  13. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by gitana1 View Post
    If true, here's what it means: It means that immediate court orders as to child custody and support are necessary to avoid detriment to the child and that some sort of imminent harm will occur without them. It means that the parent filing alleges that waiting for a regular, noticed hearing, which usually occurs no less than 30 days after the other parent is served with the declarations and paperwork stating what the filing spouse wants and why, would be detrimental to the child.

    In CA, child support cannot be determined via an emergency hearing. Not sure about NY. Child custody orders can be and are in both states.

    I agree with the article that it indicates the filing party feels there will be no settlement but I disagree that it means there can be no settlement, That's just false. The parties can have their lawyers negotiate or they can talk and settle, at any stage of the litigation.

    It is also not true that this has to occur in open court. Many high profile people petition for sealed proceedings and win the right to such when minor children are involved.



    Respectfully snipped for space and BBM. As a family law attorney I can tell you that the bolded parts will not occur.

    No family court judge is going to allow one parent to ship off their child and then be tied up in litigation for years before seeing their child. It just will not happen.

    First of all, you can't take your kid out of the jurisdiction without a court order, during the pendency of a court case. Second, interim court orders as to child custody are issued quickly in dissolution cases and unless absolute proof of abuse can be shown, each parent will get consistent and regularly occurring time with their child.

    A tape of Suri saying how horrid her mom is would not be enough to prove any abuse on the part of the mother. To most family court judges, it would prove alienation on the part of the father and his rights would likely be curtailed.

    Katie could ask the court to disregard reports on confidential auditing sessions or any other church info, and the court would definitely be inclined to grant such a request as such are considered privileged, religious confessions.

    Further, even if the court did, for some reason, get wind of things Katie has divulged privately, (which happens every day in child custody cases as spouses turn on each other), unless those confessions were very recent and include confessions about drug abuse, child abuse, alcohol abuse, threats to harm herself or her child or violence against her husband, they will be highly unlikely to preclude child custody at this time.

    Finally, even if the court found merit in bizarre allegations on the part of TC, Katie would not go months or years tied up in litigation before seeing her kid. She would have, at a very minimum, supervised visits on a regular basis. And there is no way in he!! that the court would grant a request that a 6 year old child in the middle of a custody battle, be put on a boat for months or years or even weeks. It is just not going to happen.

    The only custody cases that involve a scenario remotely close to what you you are describing are those involving international child abduction cases like Sean Goldmans', in nations that are paying lip service to the Hague Convention.

    For the reasons I listed previously, TC is not going to abduct Suri.

    I can only give you my professional opinion based on my experience as a family law attorney. You can choose to trust me, or not.

    Katie is going to be granted custody of Suri. TC will be granted joint custody or very, very liberal visitation rights.

    It is unlikely that any significant restrictions on Suri's ability to participate in church activities will be ordered, unless Katie can prove harm has already been occurring as a result of such activities, though she may be able to try in the future if she can laetr prove such harm is occurring.

    If Katie does not fight hard enough and long enough or if she lacks the resources to continue on, there is a good chance that TC could slowly alienate Suri over time from her mother and cause her to want to spend less time with her mother and more with the church and TC. Court orders will prevent even an alienated Suri from joining Sea Org. until she is 18 or emancipates, but in a few years, she could be sufficiently alienated that we see an Alec Baldwin type situation where Suri refuses to see much of her mother and the courts indulge her wishes via matching court orders.

    Katie then would need to mount a huge attack against Scientology and it's affects and prove harm to her daughter and her relationship with her has been occurring as a result of the church.

    This will be very costly and very hard to do and if Suri is sufficiently alienated, she still may fail at primary custody or much visitation because the court can deem it to be too much of a risk of further detriment to an alienated child to force contact.

    But remember this, if Katie lacks the funds to pay for this level of litigation, while TC does, he will have to contribute to her fees.
    You definitely know more about the law than I do and I respect your opinions on that. My point is that Scientologists don't obey the law. I'd imagine that right now Miscavige believes he's above the law due to his MIL's death and his wife's disappearance. LRH's son said that thing that makes Scientology different from other cults is that it claims to create Gods. If TC thinks he's a God, and that's not out of the question, then he probably believes he can get away with anything. I don't think Katie would be killed, but I don't doubt for one second that they could give a rat's about the law. JMO
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  15. #258
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    To add to my above post.

    What would happen if during a trip to visit her father she was placed on a Seaorg ship and sailed away? With TC's wealth and power what do you believe would happen to him?

    I'm not trying to be a wiseguy. I really want to know what consequences he would face.
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  17. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
    To add to my above post.

    What would happen if during a trip to visit her father she was placed on a Seaorg ship and sailed away? With TC's wealth and power what do you believe would happen to him?

    I'm not trying to be a wiseguy. I really want to know what consequences he would face.
    Contempt of court, kidnapping charges, jail time and the total loss of his career.

    I have not known celebrity to affect how judges rule in family law cases in the last few decades. Judges in such cases know there is intense scrutiny and go by the book.

    Also, the international uproar if the police failed to arrest, if the DA failed to indict, if the judge failed to hold TC in contempt or failed to sentence to jail or prison time if he kidnapped and held his world-famous child from her world-famous mother, would be deafening. No judge would ignore that. And I know you know that!

    Celebrities who act out of order when it comes to their kids often lose rights. Did all of Britney Spears fame, money and power prevent a judge from awarding sole custody to her two-bit dancer ex husband? How about Charlie Sheen? Did all his money, fame and power prevent him from losing custody of his twin boys?

    What about Alec Baldwin? Would you say he is more famous and more powerful than Kim Basinger? But he had his rights to his child severely curtailed after calling her a pig.

    And Sharon Stone? Who was more famous, her or her newspaper exec husband? She lost custody to him. Most people probably can't even name him.

    No, scientologists may be able to out litigate most people or organizations because they have more money. But TC will have to pay Katie's attorney's fees if she can't afford to keep up, because he earns more.

    And scientology will not be a party to this case.

    Finally, and once again, the incredible negative publicity that such a tactic would cause the church is something that, no matter how crazy, how psychopathic and evil they are, they would seek to prevent, due to the fact that it is a money-making organization and no scientology official is too crazy or fanatical to forget that or risk that.

    Does that mean TC will be encouraged by the church to give Katie everything she wants? Maybe, but I doubt it. Instead, they would press for sealing of the case so more negative press doesn't come out. Also, TC seems way too fanatical to give up rights to indoctrinate his kid. He did it to the older two and he'll do it to this one if he can. He absolutely and fanatically believes in his cause. He will fight, but if he breaks the law while doing so, he will be prosecuted and if it is obvious that he did the crime, like kidnapping the child and refusing to return her, he will go to jail.
    Last edited by gitana1; 07-04-2012 at 08:55 PM.
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  19. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by gitana1 View Post
    Contempt of court, kidnapping charges, jail time and the total loss of his career.

    I have not known celebrity to affect who judges rule in family law cases in the last few decades. Judges in such cases know there is intense scrutiny and go by the book.

    Also, the international uproar if the police failed to arrest, if the DA failed to indict, if the judge failed to hold TC in contempt or failed to sentence to jail or prison time if he kidnapped and held his world-famous child from her world-famous mother, would be deafening. No judge would ignore that. And I know you know that!

    Celebrities who act out of order when it comes to their kids often lose rights. Did all of Britney Spears fame, money and power prevent a judge from awarding sole custody to her two-bit dancer ex husband? How about Charlie Sheen? Did all his money, fame and power prevent him from losing custody of his twin boys?

    What about Alec Baldwin? Would you say he is more famous and more powerful than Kim Basinger? But he had his rights to his child severely curtailed after calling her a pig.

    And Sharon Stone? Who was more famous, her or her newspaper exec husband? She lost custody to him. Most people probably can't even name him.

    No, scientologists may be able to out litigate most people or organizations because they have more money. But TC will have to pay Katie's attorney's fees if she can't afford to keep up, because he earns more.

    And scientology will not be a party to this case.

    Finally, and once again, the incredible negative publicity that such a tactic would cause the church is something that, no matter how crazy, how psychopathic and evil they are, they would seek to prevent, due to the fact that it is a money-making organization and no scientology official is to crazy or fanatical to forget that or risk that.

    Does that mean TC will be encouraged by the church to give Katie everything she wants? Maybe, but I doubt it. Instead, they would press for sealing of the case so more negative press doesn't come out. Also, TC seems way too fanatical to give up rights to indoctrinate his kid. He did it to the older two and he'll do it to this one if he can. He absolutely and fanatically believes in his cause. He will fight, but if he breaks the law while doing so, he will be prosecuted and if it is obvious that he did the crime, like kidnapping the child and refusing to return her, he will go to jail.
    I agree with all of that, but how long could TC stall things? Kim Basinger was keeping her kid from talking to her father which is what triggered the infamous phone call. He was mad a Kim's manipulation of their daughter and she goaded him into getting exactly what she wanted. Something to use against him.

    In the Scientologist videos it shows that Scientologists are trained on how to get someone's goat. (I don't think KB is a Scientologist) However, it seems they may be able to get to her. Maybe they're smart enough to keep everything above board, but I have doubts.

    As one article writer linked in this thread suggested. TC should keep low and give Katie everything she wants because if Scientology becomes a key issue it will only hurt the church and TC.

    I guess what I'm saying is that a totally sane human would behave the way you suggest. I feel TC is insane. JMO
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  21. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
    I agree with all of that, but how long could TC stall things? Kim Basinger was keeping her kid from talking to her father which is what triggered the infamous phone call. He was mad a Kim's manipulation of their daughter and she goaded him into getting exactly what she wanted. Something to use against him.

    In the Scientologist videos it shows that Scientologists are trained on how to get someone's goat. (I don't think KB is a Scientologist) However, it seems they may be able to get to her. Maybe they're smart enough to keep everything above board, but I have doubts.

    As one article writer linked in this thread suggested. TC should keep low and give Katie everything she wants because if Scientology becomes a key issue it will only hurt the church and TC.

    I guess what I'm saying is that a totally sane human would behave the way you suggest. I feel TC is insane. JMO
    I'm not quite following, Steely. I don't think a totally sane person would be in scientology or try to brainwash and/or alienate their children, which is what I think TC has done and will try to do with Suri.

    Kim Basinger interfering when it came to phone calls is a much different thing from TC taking his little girl, putting her on a boat and having her spirited away from her mother, against court orders and refusing to bring her back for years, months, weeks.

    He could perhaps fail to bring her back for a few days but Katie would, as I stated above, go into court the very next day and if he did not immediately return her, he would lose his custodial rights and go to jail. That's a fact.

    Now, I believe KB alienated her child. It can be hard to detect and thus the courts won't always act on it. And, after years of it, since it can result in a child who does not want to be with the alienated parent, it can result in child custody orders that reflect the child's wishes and can cause the alienated parent to lose custody.

    This does not generally happen over night. In Ireland Baldwin's case, it was a 7 year custody battle. Most courts don't even listen to the child's wishes until they are considerably older than 6-9. Usually, they start listening more at around age 10 or so.

    If TC uses his scientology skills wisely, I'd predict that by age 11-14, Suri will not want much to do with her mom. That's the biggest thing I think Katie has to fear, not an "accident", especially since she has surrounded herself with security and the paparazzi hound her every move, and not some dramatic kidnapping that would immediately end TC's career and cause scientology to lose all credibility as a "religion", both in terms of their tax exempt status and future "marks" who may want to join and give up their incomes.

    Two other things. First, I have heard reports that kids as young as five, six or eight or nine can be part of Sea Org. and actually sent out on ships at that age, but I have not heard of a witness coming forward to state that that actually happened to them. Instead, I have read stories of them going at age 14-18 or so. Prior to that, they are on ranches after both parents made the decision to leave them there.

    Second, in the really creepy cases of abuse and probable murder, like Lisa MacPherson, Miscavige's wife and MIL, no one was/is really looking for these people or demanding information. No one related, at least, who could have obtained the ear of the authorities. (Lisa's family later sued but they were not looking for her or trying to get her out prior to her death).

    Suri Cruise no longer has two parents involved in scientology. Thus, she's not going to a scientology ranch or on a scientology boat.

    Suri Cruise is not an adult lost into a cult with no family demanding answers or trying to fight to get her out. She has an intelligent, famous mother with knowledgeable, lawyer family members. Miscavige is a nut, but he knows why he got away with what he did with his wife and MIL. He knows he can't get away with it with Katie or her kid.
    For Travis Alexander, a human being. Justice will prevail.


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  23. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by gitana1 View Post
    So, I want to pose a few scenarios: "Breaking news! Katie Holmes, soon to be ex of star and Scientology spokesperson Tom Cruise, is missing! Reports that she had been followed and stalked by scientology henchmen have been rampant. She had asked for sole custody of the pairs' daughter and speculation that she was leaving the marriage due to scientology was high."

    Now, what do you suppose would happen then? Massive FBI investigations, screaming relatives and friends of Katie Holmes, every ex-scientologist getting much more than their fifteen minutes, every channel doing mighty exposés on what everyone would now agree is a "cult".

    How would that help TC's career? How would that help build the ranks of Scientology? It wouldn't. It would do the opposite which is why I believe it would never happen.

    I'll admit that Scientologists are an angry, dangerous lot. But in the end, they are a massive business and the business is money. Publicity such as they would receive if Katie went missing or had an "accident", would be fatal to the group. They are too smart to risk that.

    Second scenario: "Tom, I'm getting ready to have my car pick up Suri after
    her custodial time with you, will you be at home?" "Don't bother. Suri wanted to join SeaOrg. She is currently on a boat. They don't have outside communication. It will be several months before they dock."

    What do you think would happen then? Well, I'll tell you. First, the police would be called. They would be shown a copy of the custody orders. They would immediately go to TC's home and question him. Katie's lawyer would be called at once. The next day, they would be in court on an emergency motion. The court would immediately grant temporary sole physical custody to the mother and order the return of Suri. If that didn't happen, TC would lose his rights to custody of Suri, to make decisions in her life and to visit with her outside of an unsupervised setting. He would then be held in contempt of court and go to jail.

    If that was not enough to unearth Suri and return her to her mother, the FBI would get involved. There would be search warrants served and executed all over the country. The coast guard would get involved. Interpol would get involved. Scientology headquarters across the nation would be searched and leaders extensively questioned. Phone records, e-mail records, etc., etc., would be investigated.

    Then of course, would be the publicity. TC would lose his career in Hollywood in a heart beat. Again would be the massive exposés, every channel would do specials, the careers, lives and mental status of every celebrity member would be examined, and they would all lose credibility as part of the Hollywood elite. The BBC special would be aired over and over, Dateline, 20/20, 60 minutes, all of them would air investigative journalistic reports about Scientology. Cries for the cult to lose their tax exempt status would be raised all across the nation and based on this: http://atheism.about.com/od/churches...a/overview.htm
    there would be good grounds to repeal their tax exemption of public outcry and national sentiment were strong enough to create a pressure the legislature could not ignore.

    Membership would drop steeply. Those on the cusp - not totally immersed yet or besieged by doubtful family and friends, or having doubts themselves after years in the org., would drop out. New membership would dwindle to nothing.

    Do you really think any of that benefits this business? It just ain't gonna' happen.

    What could happen, though, is what I and some others have repeated. Insidious alienation of Suri. Let me make a prediction based on my expertise in family law. TC will get either joint custody of Suri in some configuration close to 50% or he will get extremely liberal visitation rights to her, including weeks at a time for vacations, etc. It will be a sealed settlement agreement or non-public court order, such that we will not be able to see or know about most of the terms.

    If it is an issue or fear for Katie, there may be some, rational restrictions on religious activities Suri can take part in, like SeaOrg. But other than that, the court will be unlikely to preclude her involvement altogether in the church. She may even be allowed to participate in "auditing", depending on whether or not Katie does a good enough job of really proving what that entails and how "confidential confessions" are not confidential and are used against the members. But, I have little doubt that Suri will be able to be involved to a large degree in her father's religion.

    I support what jjenny says. No court is going to issue orders restricting custody or even religious involvement based on what has happened to some other members or what some other members say has happened. That would be a tiny bit analogous to saying, "Your honor, I want custody and I want my ex to be prohibited from taking my child to Catholic mass because many kids have been molested by priests."

    It just wouldn't fly.

    You need to show proof that harm has actually occurred or is seriously imminent (e.g., "A neighbor let me know that my ex is moving all his belongings out of the home and our child's passport is missing. He has threatened to abduct our kid out of the country and into a cult compound overseas, for years. Please issue emergency orders so I can pick up our child right now.").

    Courts otherwise do not get involved very often in religious decisions. They don't prohibit religious involvement much or mandate it. The few times I have seen that they do get involved, the religion the child has been raised in to date is the one that the child is allowed to follow and a new one may, in certain, limited circumstances, be prohibited.

    Thank you for this post Gitana- but can't Kate's lawyers go in there with all the ex-members *top people* who have left the *church* and tell the judge-look -this in not a true religion.Look what they have been accused of in the past-and show the judge the tapes that have come out about this group-all the lies,intimidation,splitting of families.I mean some judge has to look at all the facts and say-these people are using brainwashing here on its members & its not good.I mean-really-this man who started this group is a sci-fi writer & all his BS is just that BS-Some judge has to see through that.RIGHT-
    I have had a few beers tonight-so please excuse my typos!!!

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  25. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elley Mae View Post
    I never saw what others saw in TC and I sure don't see anything in KH, nothing. As for SC, I see her as she presents herself, B-R-A-T! jmo
    why, because you saw her crying or pouting in a few photos? most kids that age have a tantrum every once in awhile - it just so happens hers are caught on video for the world to see b/c her every move is being stalked

    IMO it's incredibly harsh and unnecessary to label a CHILD in that manner

    she's an innocent child and a victim of circumstances and I have not seen ANY behaviour that would indicate she is anything but a little girl trying to make sense of a crazy world

    JMO

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  27. #264
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    It may be Katie's concerns have nothing to do with sea-org or even scientology, but with alienation. It does seem that TC's older kids have been alienated from their mother and Katie has witnessed that personally. I can't say I blame her for wanting to avoid the same fate with her own child.

    As a mother, I simply wouldn't want my children to be raised in a world where the very concept of a sea-org type of thing is acceptable - even if they were never members.
    ~~~Cynical Optimist~~~

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  29. #265
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    After more searching I have come across a video of a young man testifying in court from 1994 about what his non-scientologist parents were told and what they listened to (a tape) that he bought to get them (his parents) to agree to let the young man leave school to join Scientology fully. They play the actual tape that his parents listened to in court.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYdpNpPDWMc&feature=related"]Scientology: Chilling Propaganda Tape for Parents- YouTube[/ame]

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  31. #266
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    Thank you to Steely, HC, gitana and others who have provided much more info than I ever would have found myself, at least not easily and quickly.

    This whole thing intrigues me. I have been fascinated with cults and what makes people become victims to them for some time. This one is especially interesting because it is so bizarre, and info on it is not easily available. So much is kept secret.

    IMO, Tom Cruise's star has fallen quite a bit since his couch jumping, attack on Brooke Shields, and the Scientology videos leaked to the press years ago. The ones where he is saying (among other things) that as a Scientologist, if you see a car accident you are compelled to stop and help because you are the only person who can help because of what you have been taught. Since that time, it seems to me that he is not as popular with the greater public as he once was. He is largely viewed as odd and his religion has suffered in the public because of him and other things. I think this puts Katie Holmes in a better position for her fight. She likely knows things the church would not want made public, and they are in a position now to want to keep that out of the press. Which may translate to pressure on Tom Cruise to bow down and keep her happy. Who knows? I guess we will see.

    As for Suri, spoiled or not, she is a precious 6-year-old who deserves the unwavering support of her parents. If one parent thinks the other is doing something with the potential to harm her, that child absolutely deserves for the other parent to do everything in her means to protect that child. Everything legal, that is.

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  33. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by SyraKelly View Post
    Thank you for this post Gitana- but can't Kate's lawyers go in there with all the ex-members *top people* who have left the *church* and tell the judge-look -this in not a true religion.Look what they have been accused of in the past-and show the judge the tapes that have come out about this group-all the lies,intimidation,splitting of families.I mean some judge has to look at all the facts and say-these people are using brainwashing here on its members & its not good.I mean-really-this man who started this group is a sci-fi writer & all his BS is just that BS-Some judge has to see through that.RIGHT-
    I have had a few beers tonight-so please excuse my typos!!!
    LOL. That was me last night!

    Anyhow, not really. Because then, the court would be putting on trial what the government has deemed a legitimate religion. The court is not going to hear a parade of witnesses talk about their personal experiences with the group, if not directly relevant to Suri's actual experiences. Courts just don't do that.

    If, however, Katie can show that probable harm may occur to Suri as a result of certain practices like seaorg., she can get orders prohibiting that particular activity, but it is highly unlikely, unless at a future date she can show the church has harmed Suri, that the court will interfere in private, parental decisions about religion, especially when it is the religion the whole family has practiced since the kid was born and nothing has changed in the church to make it more dangerous.
    For Travis Alexander, a human being. Justice will prevail.


    *Gitana (means "Gypsy girl"). Pronounced "hee tah nah."

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  35. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasLori View Post
    Thank you to Steely, HC, gitana and others who have provided much more info than I ever would have found myself, at least not easily and quickly.

    This whole thing intrigues me. I have been fascinated with cults and what makes people become victims to them for some time. This one is especially interesting because it is so bizarre, and info on it is not easily available. So much is kept secret.

    IMO, Tom Cruise's star has fallen quite a bit since his couch jumping, attack on Brooke Shields, and the Scientology videos leaked to the press years ago. The ones where he is saying (among other things) that as a Scientologist, if you see a car accident you are compelled to stop and help because you are the only person who can help because of what you have been taught. Since that time, it seems to me that he is not as popular with the greater public as he once was. He is largely viewed as odd and his religion has suffered in the public because of him and other things. I think this puts Katie Holmes in a better position for her fight. She likely knows things the church would not want made public, and they are in a position now to want to keep that out of the press. Which may translate to pressure on Tom Cruise to bow down and keep her happy. Who knows? I guess we will see.

    As for Suri, spoiled or not, she is a precious 6-year-old who deserves the unwavering support of her parents. If one parent thinks the other is doing something with the potential to harm her, that child absolutely deserves for the other parent to do everything in her means to protect that child. Everything legal, that is.
    BBM. Me too!

    I agree with all your post, in fact.

    Anyhow, my guests are here and I am off to enjoy the Fourth and fireworks (I live right by Disneyland = fireworks!). So happy Fourth everyone!
    For Travis Alexander, a human being. Justice will prevail.


    *Gitana (means "Gypsy girl"). Pronounced "hee tah nah."

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  37. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasLori View Post
    Thank you to Steely, HC, gitana and others who have provided much more info than I ever would have found myself, at least not easily and quickly.

    This whole thing intrigues me. I have been fascinated with cults and what makes people become victims to them for some time. This one is especially interesting because it is so bizarre, and info on it is not easily available. So much is kept secret.

    IMO, Tom Cruise's star has fallen quite a bit since his couch jumping, attack on Brooke Shields, and the Scientology videos leaked to the press years ago. The ones where he is saying (among other things) that as a Scientologist, if you see a car accident you are compelled to stop and help because you are the only person who can help because of what you have been taught. Since that time, it seems to me that he is not as popular with the greater public as he once was. He is largely viewed as odd and his religion has suffered in the public because of him and other things. I think this puts Katie Holmes in a better position for her fight. She likely knows things the church would not want made public, and they are in a position now to want to keep that out of the press. Which may translate to pressure on Tom Cruise to bow down and keep her happy. Who knows? I guess we will see.

    As for Suri, spoiled or not, she is a precious 6-year-old who deserves the unwavering support of her parents. If one parent thinks the other is doing something with the potential to harm her, that child absolutely deserves for the other parent to do everything in her means to protect that child. Everything legal, that is.
    LOL-I guess TC is not the brightest bulb-cause if this were me-I would walk away as fast as they can say the name Suri

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  39. #270
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    A video of Tom Cruise explaining Scientology Study Technology..........well sort of explaining it. Be sure to read the pop ups on the video. The video was put on u tube by a group that is set out to expose Scientology.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S800ilR9c4&feature=related"]Tom Cruise Explains Scientology Study Technology ! - YouTube[/ame]

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  41. #271
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    Here is the video I was talking about. So bizarre.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFBZ_uAbxS0"]Tom Cruise Scientology Video - ( Original UNCUT ) - YouTube[/ame]

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  43. #272
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    Tomorrow I am going to dig deeper about the head of the *church* Migv-I don't know how to spell his name right now-LOL-But his wife disappearance has me wanting to know more about him & her!!!

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  45. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by SyraKelly View Post
    Tomorrow I am going to dig deeper about the head of the *church* Migv-I don't know how to spell his name right now-LOL-But his wife disappearance has me wanting to know more about him & her!!!
    Please let us know what you find.

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  47. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
    To add to my above post.

    What would happen if during a trip to visit her father she was placed on a Seaorg ship and sailed away? With TC's wealth and power what do you believe would happen to him?

    I'm not trying to be a wiseguy. I really want to know what consequences he would face.
    From the research I have been doing SeaOrg has not had ships since 1975. It is land based. In 1987 they purchased a ship called "La Bohème", which they later renamed "Freewinds". The highest levels of Scientology are taught on this ship. In April 2008, "Freewinds" was sealed for extensive asbestos contamination. SeaOrg's land bases are located in several places around the world. Only SeaOrg members are staff members in Scientology's Advanced Organizations.

    [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Org"]Sea Org - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
    http://exscientologykids.com/seaorg.html

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  49. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasLori View Post
    SNIPPED The ones where he is saying (among other things) that as a Scientologist, if you see a car accident you are compelled to stop and help because you are the only person who can help because of what you have been taught.
    What Cruise is talking about is (from what I remember) the technology called "touch back". The premise is that whenever we are injured, our bodies hold that memory, and it can cause additional pain, because we are fearful of more pain. Thus we block out experiences of pain, which will come out/backfire at some time, and cause more pain. It's a repressed memory with some sort of power to magnify. And it's thought that if you experience the actual pain, it is less devastating to the person hurting than if you block it out.

    And there is also a component of transferred energy, from your body to the item you were hurt with (a car accident, a bee sting, et cetera), and that item has also transferred energy to you, thus creating a block of pain.

    The touch back is done, supposedly, to reconnect the soul to the body, so that pain can be felt and experienced at the actual level, and not a greater, imagined, built up level. What you/the sci practitioner does, is literally touch back to the item, to transfer the energy *back* to the item instead of "storing" it.

    Say, for example, you fell off your bike and hit the curb. Your knee is bloody and skinned. In a touchback, you place your knee to the curb, and "experience the pain fully", and repeatedly do that until there is no more pain to experience. Thus the energy has been adequately re-transferred, and you're no longer hurting. If it is unsuccessful, the practitioner then instructs the sufferer to "return to an earlier time where you experienced the same pain. Feel it fully." And so on. Until the sufferer has no more pain.

    That is one aspect of what Cruise is talking about when he says "we are the ONLY ones who can help." He believes that scientology (please note the lack of capitalization...it does not deserve status as a proper name) has created a way to "handle" issues like this, and that only scientologists can free the pain sufferer from repressed pain memories, which are a block to feeling life fully.

    That's the general idea behind a touchback. It's been a very long time since I was exposed to that practice, so I may have some of the explanations wrong, or the concepts a tad off. But that's the basic idea.

    Personally, I prefer vicodin to touchback, but to each their own. LOL.

    Best-
    Herding Cats
    Counting the days...counting the days. Still silent, still neither assenting nor agreeing...action has been initiated. Everything in it's time. First volley SERVED...

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