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Thread: Penn State Sandusky Trial #12 (GUILTY-post verdict discussion)

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
    Curley's and Schultz's lawyers issued a joint statement:

    Quote:
    "For Curley, Schultz, Spanier and Paterno, the responsible and 'humane' thing to do was, like Governor Corbett, to carefully and responsibly assess the best way to handle vague, but troubling allegations. Faced with tough situations, good people try to do their best to make the right decisions."


    The subtle inclusion of Paterno with the three stooges is interesting. It definitely seems to contradict Paterno's testimony that he simply kicked the allegation upstairs and was done with it.
    I just wanted to point this out, directed at the statement, not at you BigCat.

    Corbett investigated. The Three Stooges did not.

    Does anyone know how grand jury proceedings are conducted? Were MM, Paterno, Curley, Schultz, and Spanier aware of each other's testimony?
    Curley and Schultz had the same attorney. Paterno didn't, and I'm not sure about Spanier.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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  3. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by IzzyBlanche View Post
    OK, if that's what J.J. meant, then I was being dumb. I interpreted J. J. as saying Curley, not Paterno, was the driving force behind changing the plan.
    I wouldn't call Paterno the "driving force," but that e-mail indicates he advocated it to Curley. He was on board with it.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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  5. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    I wouldn't call Paterno the "driving force," but that e-mail indicates he advocated it to Curley. He was on board with it.
    Just jumping off your post, J. J., to point out the rest of what this article says was on the emails:

    http://edition.cnn.com/2012/06/30/ju...ils/index.html

    In the same purported e-mail provided to CNN, Curley goes on to suggest that if Sandusky "is cooperative," Penn State "would work with him" to tell Second Mile. If not, Curley states, the university will inform both Second Mile and outside authorities............

    "The only downside for us is if the message (to Sandusky) isn't 'heard' and acted upon, and we then become vulnerable for not having reported it," Spanier purportedly writes.

    "But that can be assessed down the road. The approach you outline is humane and a reasonable way to proceed," he adds............

    "This is a more humane and upfront way to handle this,' Schultz purportedly writes. But he makes clear Penn State should inform Sandusky's charity Second Mile "with or without (Sandusky's) cooperation."

    As for telling child welfare authorities, he adds, "we can play it by ear."


    ETA: Curley purportedly writes to Spanier, saying he wants to meet with Sandusky, tell him there's "a problem," and that "we want to assist the individual to get professional help."

    So what happened that none of them, including Paterno who apparently suggested the new plan, followed up on 'assessing down the road' and 'playing it by ear' concerning reporting to outside authorities, and getting JS professional help?
    Last edited by Reader; 07-01-2012 at 02:54 PM.


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    A damning commentary from the Patriot News:

    http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/ind...l_at_penn.html

    Is there anyone out there wondering why I call this Central Pennsylvania Gothic.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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    Quote Originally Posted by back2back19 View Post
    Honestly, I don't think the NCAA will anything to Penn State, unless the Freeh report uncovers NCAA violations. I really don't think they will touch the Sandusky stuff.
    You may be right and we'll see what happens, but I think they will get involved in some type of sanctions...it's been pointed out in a couple of sports articles that the school violated ethics standards, moral standards and lost control of the football program.

    At FSU down here, due to a much more simpler testing scandal, the NCAA sanctioned them by taking away 14 game wins, a bowl win and disqualifying a bunch of players. Penn State's violations are much more serious to me as they concern how the entire athletics program was run and the lack of ethical leadership when it was needed, which has affected the school negatively in many ways.

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  10. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    I wouldn't call Paterno the "driving force," but that e-mail indicates he advocated it to Curley. He was on board with it.
    From the recent articles I've read in the last couple of days it seems Paterno was. Curley didn't "change" his mind until right after the meeting with him. Seems to me like Paterno used some powerful dissuasion with him- like how it would impact the precious football team...
    I am now in agreement with those who call for taking down the statue of Paterno. He is no hero! How humane was it to let more boys be victimized while turning a blind eye? And nothing was done when Sandusky didn't change and just kept bringing more victims to the Penn State locker rooms and showers!
    More heads need to roll for enabling Sandusky, and the NCAA should also take severe action against Penn State.
    Maybe we should have a forum on this with threads for actions against Dottie, Penn State (Curley, Spanier, Shultz), and The Second Mile. Anyone else I've left out???
    Last edited by LinasK; 07-01-2012 at 03:04 PM.
    Please help locate Mark Dribin http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...ht=Mark+Dribin and Ilene Misheloff http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...lene+Misheloff and bring them home.



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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by LinasK View Post
    From the recent articles I've read in the last couple of days it seems Paterno was. Curley didn't "change" his mind until right after the meeting with him. Seems to me like Paterno used some powerful dissuasion with him- like how it would impact the precious football team...
    I am now in agreement with those who call for taking down the statue of Paterno. He is no hero! How humane was it to let more boys be victimized while turning a blind eye? And nothing was done when Sandusky didn't change and just kept bringing more victims to the Penn State locker rooms and showers!
    More heads need to roll for enabling Sandusky, and the NCAA should also take severe action against Penn State.
    We don't know how powerful.

    It could have been, "Can we just get Jerry some treatment?" It could have been something more forceful.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
    Curley's and Schultz's lawyers issued a joint statement:



    The subtle inclusion of Paterno with the three stooges is interesting. It definitely seems to contradict Paterno's testimony that he simply kicked the allegation upstairs and was done with it.

    Does anyone know how grand jury proceedings are conducted? Were MM, Paterno, Curley, Schultz, and Spanier aware of each other's testimony?
    they really didnt have much choice at that point. it was either, keep lying, keep lying but hedge the truth as much as possible (in light of recent events) or tell the truth.

    heres an intertersting reaction to recent disclosures:

    http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--...rup-grows.html

    "....What remains is the question of why otherwise reasonable people would make such an ethically bankrupt and criminal decision. These are highly educated, high-functioning men. The answer may never be determined. It may help to go back to that moment.

    In hindsight, the smart move would have been to have Sandusky arrested. Viewed from today, Curley, Paterno, et. al. would have been lauded for making the correct decision.

    At the time, however, the story would've been about a recently retired defensive coordinator molesting kids in JoePa's locker room.

    Paterno was 74 and coming off a 5-7 season. He didn't have much of a team for the foreseeable future, either. Rumblings were growing that it was time for him to retire, that the game had passed him by, that at his age he couldn't handle the responsibilities of a major college football program.

    An act of child molestation in the locker room would have only fueled that. When word would have eventually leaked out that in 1998 Sandusky had been investigated for the same charge yet still maintained all-hour access to the facilities, it may have too much for Paterno to survive, let alone explain.

    In the precise moment, each of the men must have feared being fired. Even Joe Paterno.
    ...."
    IF I PUT IT HERE ITS MY OPINION. apparently i have no idea when i need to say that in a post, so this should cover it....IN MY OPINION anyways,

    welcome to the gates of hell JVDS.




    Jose Baez: “I sincerely believe that when we have finally spoken, everyone, and I mean everyone, will sit back and say, ‘Now, I understand. That explains it.’”



    Jose Baez to da judge :

    ".....that type of testing is unique. we requested that they be allowed to test items and that of course was objected to by the state and and uh the state uh granted or sustained their objection, denied our opportunity to have him test these items due to a very specialized field, subfield, of dna that he is one of the pioneers of uh in the alternative of we were granted the ability to test certain items by an outside lab...."

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  16. #59
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    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    We don't know how powerful.

    It could have been, "Can we just get Jerry some treatment?" It could have been something more forceful.
    True, but my gut tells me some verbal arm twisting went on, on Paterno's part... He minimized the victims the way he worded it as "sex between a man and boy", as if it was consensual.
    Please help locate Mark Dribin http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...ht=Mark+Dribin and Ilene Misheloff http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...lene+Misheloff and bring them home.



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  18. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    A damning commentary from the Patriot News:

    http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/ind...l_at_penn.html

    Is there anyone out there wondering why I call this Central Pennsylvania Gothic.
    Interesting information from your link:

    Pennsylvania launches far fewer child sexual abuse investigations than other states: 8 per 1,000 children versus 40 per 1,000 children nationally.

    The Keystone State also lags behind in determining a child to be a victim of child abuse: 1.3 per 1,000 children compared with 9.2 per 1,000 nationally, according to the Child Abuse Coalition of the state District Attorney’s Association.

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  20. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by LinasK View Post
    True, but my gut tells me some verbal arm twisting went on, on Paterno's part... He minimized the victims the way he worded it as "sex between a man and boy", as if it was consensual.
    Well, his shocked statement is questionable, though McQueary said that he was visibly shocked.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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  22. #62
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    Well, his shocked statement is questionable, though McQueary said that he was visibly shocked.
    Maybe Paterno was shocked when McQuery first told him, but then had time to go into denial mode. I know from personal experience when I told my mother of my molestation, the denial mode only took about 30 seconds or less to happen...
    Please help locate Mark Dribin http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...ht=Mark+Dribin and Ilene Misheloff http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...lene+Misheloff and bring them home.



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  24. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by LinasK View Post
    Maybe Paterno was shocked when McQuery first told him, but then had time to go into denial mode. I know from personal experience when I told my mother of my molestation, the denial mode only took about 30 seconds or less to happen...
    I don't think he would have been shocked if he was aware of Victim 6/B. K.

    He would have had time to process it by the conversation with Curley.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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    if you have the time, the "comments" section of the local rag is a wealth of information, speculation, indgination and hyperbole.

    some of the commentors are state insiders with connections. a few are die hard fans, trying to keep the sinking ship afloat with smoke and mirrors. what seems clear is that as bad as we might have thought it actually is, its worse, much worse.

    http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/ind...mments-13.html
    IF I PUT IT HERE ITS MY OPINION. apparently i have no idea when i need to say that in a post, so this should cover it....IN MY OPINION anyways,

    welcome to the gates of hell JVDS.




    Jose Baez: “I sincerely believe that when we have finally spoken, everyone, and I mean everyone, will sit back and say, ‘Now, I understand. That explains it.’”



    Jose Baez to da judge :

    ".....that type of testing is unique. we requested that they be allowed to test items and that of course was objected to by the state and and uh the state uh granted or sustained their objection, denied our opportunity to have him test these items due to a very specialized field, subfield, of dna that he is one of the pioneers of uh in the alternative of we were granted the ability to test certain items by an outside lab...."

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  27. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by LinasK View Post
    From the recent articles I've read in the last couple of days it seems Paterno was. Curley didn't "change" his mind until right after the meeting with him. Seems to me like Paterno used some powerful dissuasion with him- like how it would impact the precious football team...
    I am now in agreement with those who call for taking down the statue of Paterno. He is no hero! How humane was it to let more boys be victimized while turning a blind eye? And nothing was done when Sandusky didn't change and just kept bringing more victims to the Penn State locker rooms and showers!
    More heads need to roll for enabling Sandusky, and the NCAA should also take severe action against Penn State.
    Maybe we should have a forum on this with threads for actions against Dottie, Penn State (Curley, Spanier, Shultz), and The Second Mile. Anyone else I've left out???
    I absolutely agree - take down the statue. He knew what was going on but felt the football team was more important. How much did his wife know? And what about Dottie, no one could be that much in denial.

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  29. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    Well, I'm still not convinced that Paterno knew about 1998 (though it is clear Curley did in 2001 and that Schultz did in 1998), or that McQueary's career development had anything to do with 2001 (I think the timing is against it).

    I don't move without evidence, but, unless Curley decided to lie on that one detail in private e-mails in 2001 (and there is no apparent reason for it), Paterno was involved after he reported and encouraged not reporting Sandusky to LE.

    That is damning.

    We have returned to Central Pennsylvania Gothic.
    Leaving the question of MM's job out, since I don't know anything about his job performance and if he was qualified or not...

    But I have always thought that Paterno had to know about 1998 also....from all the reports we've seen he was very proprietary about the football program and his players, even being instrumental in the VP of student affairs Vickey Triponey leaving her job. She stated Paterno urged her, in an email that has since become public, to “leave discipline of football players to the coach”......How she describes the culture? “A blind sense of loyalty—not just at the top, but at all levels.”

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-triponey.html
    (previously posted by StellarsJay)

    Take this atmosphere and Paterno's attitude about control of his program, the fact that JS still worked for him at the time and include the circumstances and content of Curley's email:

    Except that Curley sent an email to Schultz and school president Graham Spanier on Feb. 27, 2001, that changed everything.

    "After giving it more thought and talking it over with Joe yesterday, I am uncomfortable with what we agreed were the next steps. I am having trouble with going to everyone but the person involved. I would be more comfortable meeting with the person and tell them about the information we received and tell them we are aware of the first situation," Curley's email said, according to CNN.
    Now, to me it's obvious that his 'we' means all of them involved in this change of plan including Paterno whom he had just talked to about the plan and how to handle this new allegation. It makes no sense that Paterno and Curley would not discuss the 'first situation' in 'talking it over'. Do you really think that the man in control was not informed of a police, CPS and DA investigation of a coach that still worked for him?

    This may not be 'hard evidence' but circumstantial evidence and use of deduction is also allowed in court, that's what helped convict JS.

    IMO
    Last edited by Reader; 07-01-2012 at 06:25 PM.

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  31. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by costalpilot View Post
    if you have the time, the "comments" section of the local rag is a wealth of information, speculation, indgination and hyperbole.

    some of the commentors are state insiders with connections. a few are die hard fans, trying to keep the sinking ship afloat with smoke and mirrors. what seems clear is that as bad as we might have thought it actually is, its worse, much worse.

    http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/ind...mments-13.html
    Thanks. Will have to check it out. I have absolutely no doubt it's much worse than any of us can imagine but I do sorta, kinda worry that the Freeh report won't get into everyting. I guess I still have some fear of a coverup. There's no way that report should be mild.

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  33. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by back2back19 View Post
    Thanks. Will have to check it out. I have absolutely no doubt it's much worse than any of us can imagine but I do sorta, kinda worry that the Freeh report won't get into everyting. I guess I still have some fear of a coverup. There's no way that report should be mild.
    from what I read about Freeh, no need to worry. personally i have no knowledge, but a commentator said freeh would positiively do a thorough and complete investigation and that he would pull no punches. interestingly, the most "connected" of the commentators in the response column seem to be the most pessimistic, especially a guy named bierce(?)1 on page 11, who several responders acknowledged as being closer to the program than everyone else. this guy said the filth goes way, way back. way b4 anything that has as yet even been alluded to.

    frankly, I'm not surprised. joepa has been in charge a long time in happy valley. one road in;one road out.

    one more thing, the people that say, "this could have happened anywhere", are way off. no way it happens anywhere else. this was a unique situation. nowhere else is anything like this. this is the biggest scandal in SPORTS history. no doubt in my mind.

    all you had to know (to guess at how bad it REALLY was) is that joepa got summarily fired, in the middle of the season, the day after he announced his resignation at the end of the season.

    joe pa didnt get fired because his assistant was a pervert. and he didnt get fired cause he was an old man who didnt know a man could have sex with a boy. (funny about that, but in a way, its true. all an adult man can do is rape a minor boy, but that misses joes bs, misleading, lying point).

    imo joe got fired because he masterminded a massive, long running cover up that in part enabled a predator to find, stalk and victimize children. but joe wasnt alone. he just ran the show. apparently he had lots of help.

    in essence, the email meant this> the cover up is on. we have our orders. or, the cover up is on, Joes on board with it. if the latter, curly unilaterally altered a plan the three had agreed to. but that makes NO sense. not after he links joe to the reversal.

    one is left to conclude...joe directed the cover up.

    someone said, leave the statute. paint it yellow. but that's the color of cowardice. whats the color of evil?

    ann rule needs to cover this.
    IF I PUT IT HERE ITS MY OPINION. apparently i have no idea when i need to say that in a post, so this should cover it....IN MY OPINION anyways,

    welcome to the gates of hell JVDS.




    Jose Baez: “I sincerely believe that when we have finally spoken, everyone, and I mean everyone, will sit back and say, ‘Now, I understand. That explains it.’”



    Jose Baez to da judge :

    ".....that type of testing is unique. we requested that they be allowed to test items and that of course was objected to by the state and and uh the state uh granted or sustained their objection, denied our opportunity to have him test these items due to a very specialized field, subfield, of dna that he is one of the pioneers of uh in the alternative of we were granted the ability to test certain items by an outside lab...."

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  35. #69
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    Even with Sandusky convicted, it gets worse and worse for Penn State. It is obvious they knew what was going on, but they ignored it. Turned the other cheek mentality. What happened at Penn State is reminds me what happened with Soviet Union, Axis, Khmer Rouge, Maoist China, Rwanda, Uganda, and South Hadley. People knew what was going on, but no action was taken.




    HMS Hood
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  37. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reader View Post

    But I have always thought that Paterno had to know about 1998 also....from all the reports we've seen he was very proprietary about the football program and his players, even being instrumental in the VP of student affairs Vickey Triponey leaving her job. She stated Paterno urged her, in an email that has since become public, to “leave discipline of football players to the coach”......How she describes the culture? “A blind sense of loyalty—not just at the top, but at all levels.”

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-triponey.html
    (previously posted by StellarsJay)
    I will wait for actual evidence regarding Paterno and 1998. He was not in on the e-mails, so that could include Curley, Schultz, and Spanier, but not Paterno.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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  39. #71
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    David Jones: Joe Paterno fans must accept that he was flawed

    http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/ind...tml#incart_hbx

    ........Today, we begin to deal with the man’s dark side. As it was the time then to extol some of Paterno’s virtues, now it is time to examine his liabilities.

    We all have both. Our culture seems more and more addicted to the concept of white hats and black hats, to taking sides, to painting the world and its inhabitants as either “good” or “evil.” It’s an infantile way to look at life and people, in my opinion........

    Those people will never believe what I have to say here because they are zealots in need of a hero, even if it’s someone they never knew.

    I can only tell you that when I read Saturday’s CNN report implicating Paterno in keeping the lid on Sandusky’s activities, I was not in the slightest surprised. I’ve suspected as much for almost two years. I did not print my full sentiments in the interest of fairness.......

    In covering the man and his football program for 21 seasons, the single most dominant thread is this: his ambition and drive. He would allow nothing and no one to disparage the institution he had built without some form of retribution. And he had complete power over his domain...........

    We don’t know the totality of what the Freeh investigation will uncover. I would just ask those who cannot get their minds around the concept of Joe Paterno acting in self-interest — acting to preserve his institution rather than individuals — to prepare themselves to have their bedtime story disrupted. You don’t get to be as powerful as this man was by sitting idly by and allowing others to call shots.

    More at link....

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  41. #72
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    This article shows the severe problem with PA's Code § 42.42. Suspected Child Abuse—Mandated Reporting Requirements.
    http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/ind...l_at_penn.html

    Mandated reporters should be required to report those suspected of child abuse directly to LE or face jail time. Requiring that they only report the suspected behavior to their superiors is fatally flawed. Some "superiors" will refuse to contact LE and others will refuse to immediately contact LE.

    I am referring to the incidents at Central Mountain High School (as it is still unclear if PSU's officials fall under the mandated reporter law.) One CMHS coach strongly suspected Jerry was a pedophile after seeing his clingy behavior and witnessing him lying next to a child on a wrestling mat, but he didn't call LE. The guidance counselor at CMHS did nothing after she was told except "gossip" with the principal about the boy, IMO. CMHS's principal was told about Jerry's crimes and she scolded the victim and his mother and told them to go home to think about what they were doing to good ol' Jerry.

    It's still unclear whether PSU officials and McQueary were mandated reporters. (Oh lawdy, don’t jump on me. Everyone should have demanded justice for the little boys regardless of whether they were a mandated reporter or not. I am just pointing out the flaws in PA's code. Knowing jail time would await them for failing to report MIGHT have altered their behavior. Notice that I used the word "might".)

    Bev Mackereth of Pennsylvania's Office of Children, Youth and Families declined to comment on whether that would cover the Penn State officials embroiled in the scandal.
    "The interpretation of who is and isn't (a mandated reporter) really belongs in the court," she said.
    http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...nd-jury-report

    Bev Mackereth is the Director of the York County Department of Human Services. She has also served eight years as the Pennsylvania State Representative for the 196th District.
    Last edited by Pensfan; 07-01-2012 at 07:36 PM.

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  43. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reader View Post
    David Jones: Joe Paterno fans must accept that he was flawed
    Somehow, I don't think "flawed" is the word I'd choose.
    We are, I know not how, double in ourselves, so that what we believe we disbelieve, and cannot rid ourselves of what we condemn. (Michel de Montaigne)

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  45. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    I will wait for actual evidence regarding Paterno and 1998. He was not in on the e-mails, so that could include Curley, Schultz, and Spanier, but not Paterno.
    Now why did I know that would be your response, J. J.? lol

    Wasn't trying to change anyone's mind, just stating where I am coming from with what we know now....

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    1,797
    Quote Originally Posted by HMSHood View Post
    Even with Sandusky convicted, it gets worse and worse for Penn State. It is obvious they knew what was going on, but they ignored it. Turned the other cheek mentality. What happened at Penn State is reminds me what happened with Soviet Union, Axis, Khmer Rouge, Maoist China, Rwanda, Uganda, and South Hadley. People knew what was going on, but no action was taken.
    you forgot an example. maybe the closest one.

    nazie germany.

    its the same. "cult of the individual" mentality" with pretty much the same outcome. the big difference (and its a huge one, thankfully, for penn state) is that in germany pretty much everyone was involved.

    in happy valley, the participants were limited to, what, ten, twenty, a hundred at most.

    other than that, its the same phenomena...absoulte power corrupts absolutely.

    one man gets power, wins a lot, consolidates that power, is lionized as a god, and has a massive moral failure. he covers it up, because he can. for a time.

    in the end, though, he cant. everything unravels. he brings it all down.

    its a tragedy. literally.

    if you dont believe that, just go to the penn state boards, he is STILL being defended there by well over half the posters. they STILL can't believe it.

    and they defend him by saying, "hes dead. he cant defend himself."

    well, so what. Hitlers dead too.

    dont get me wrong. im not sayin joepa is comparable to hitler. Im saying what happened at penn state is a lot like what happened in germany.


    one man rule.
    IF I PUT IT HERE ITS MY OPINION. apparently i have no idea when i need to say that in a post, so this should cover it....IN MY OPINION anyways,

    welcome to the gates of hell JVDS.




    Jose Baez: “I sincerely believe that when we have finally spoken, everyone, and I mean everyone, will sit back and say, ‘Now, I understand. That explains it.’”



    Jose Baez to da judge :

    ".....that type of testing is unique. we requested that they be allowed to test items and that of course was objected to by the state and and uh the state uh granted or sustained their objection, denied our opportunity to have him test these items due to a very specialized field, subfield, of dna that he is one of the pioneers of uh in the alternative of we were granted the ability to test certain items by an outside lab...."

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