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Thread: 3-Part Series by Denver Post: Boulder detectives still seek answers in JonBenét case

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    3-Part Series by Denver Post: Boulder detectives still seek answers in JonBenét case

    I just started reading it, so I don't know if there's anything new but The Denver Post has a website about cold cases and they are currently writing a 3-part series about the case.

    Here's Part 1: http://blogs.denverpost.com/coldcase...r-beaten/4464/

    Part 2: http://blogs.denverpost.com/coldcase...lou-smit/4569/

    Most of it is about Smit...

    And here's a new interactive timeline they made: http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_20...et-ramsey-case The timeline is actually pretty good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eileenhawkeye View Post
    I just started reading it, so I don't know if there's anything new but The Denver Post has a website about cold cases and they are currently writing a 3-part series about the case.

    Here's Part 1: http://blogs.denverpost.com/coldcase...r-beaten/4464/

    Part 2: http://blogs.denverpost.com/coldcase...lou-smit/4569/

    Most of it is about Smit...

    And here's a new interactive timeline they made: http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_20...et-ramsey-case The timeline is actually pretty good.
    eileenhawkeye,
    Interesting, but looks like standard template journalism to me. The author has to bear litigation in mind, so lots of obvious stuff has been omitted.

    Although credit to him for flagging up the dna question, and citing another investigator regarding the case type.

    Indirectly he appears to be questioning the public perception of the R's, since John's spiritual relationship with Lou Smit is flagged up.

    I've always thought and alleged before that there was more than prayers exchanged when John met with Lou Smit for their first prayer session?

    To learn that Lou Smit was still hanging on to his IDI theory long after he should have quietly discarded it, along with JR's appearance at his bedside, convinces me the relationship added up to more than the sum of its parts.

    Also looks like Lou Smit is subject to confirmation bias by drawing attention to the marks on JonBenet's neck, then accepting Johns denial as evidence of innocence.

    Notice Lou Smit had little to say about the pineapple or the size-12's, items no intruder would be interested in!


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    I've always thought and alleged before that there was more than prayers exchanged when John met with Lou Smit for their first prayer session?
    Me too. Wonder how much went into his retirement account.
    I'm just playing detective here. I have no idea who killed JonBenet. It's just an opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrishope View Post
    Me too. Wonder how much went into his retirement account.
    How ever much it was, if anything, he took that knowledge to the grave.
    All posts made by me are MY exclusive property, and are NOT to be used or reproduced without my permission. DAVE SMASH THIEVES!

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    The article gave me a question - could JBR have fit into that suitcase?
    "..when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.."

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    Quote Originally Posted by gypsychild View Post
    The article gave me a question - could JBR have fit into that suitcase?
    Here's a picture: http://www.acandyrose.com/trainroom-window.jpg

    BTW, I watched an episode of Law and Order recently, and a child beauty queen was murdered, and her body was found in a suitcase on a bus. JonBenet was even referenced in the episode.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eileenhawkeye View Post
    Here's a picture: http://www.acandyrose.com/trainroom-window.jpg

    BTW, I watched an episode of Law and Order recently, and a child beauty queen was murdered, and her body was found in a suitcase on a bus. JonBenet was even referenced in the episode.
    It doesn't really seem wide enough to me, but then again I have never tried to stuff anyone into a suitcase.

    It just made me pause for thought, considering the R's travel plans and where the child could have been prior to being re-staged in the wine cellar. Maybe JBR was in the case and going 'with' the family so to speak, then re-staged when things did not go as planned. Didn't they travel on a private plane? No luggage examination right?

    That suitcase with a blanket inside has never sat quite right with me. Why a blanket in the suitcase?
    "..when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.."

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    Quote Originally Posted by gypsychild View Post
    It doesn't really seem wide enough to me, but then again I have never tried to stuff anyone into a suitcase.

    It just made me pause for thought, considering the R's travel plans and where the child could have been prior to being re-staged in the wine cellar. Maybe JBR was in the case and going 'with' the family so to speak, then re-staged when things did not go as planned. Didn't they travel on a private plane? No luggage examination right?

    That suitcase with a blanket inside has never sat quite right with me. Why a blanket in the suitcase?
    The family was going to fly on their own airplane, so no, there would be no luggage examination. They had a pilot, so they could not have dropped the suitcase over lake Michigan, or some such. They could have landed with JB in the suitcase and disposed of the body later, but IMO this was never a likely part of the plan.
    I'm just playing detective here. I have no idea who killed JonBenet. It's just an opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gypsychild View Post
    The article gave me a question - could JBR have fit into that suitcase?
    Possibly, but she was never placed in it. Here's why: TWO things about the condition of JB's body when she was found PROVE that she was never bent, folded, or put in any position at all other than the one she was found in after she died. Livor mortis (the pooling of blood in a corpse after the heart stops pumping it) and rigor mortis (stiffening of the body caused by build up of lactic acid and other changes in blood chemistry after the heart stops pumping oxygen through the blood) indicate that she was placed on her back, head cocked to the right, legs out straight shortly after death. This means that she was never stuffed into that suitcase because even if it was attempted before rigor set in, there would be TWO livor patterns instead of one on the body- there was only one- the one consistent with the way she was found. It also means she was not hidden in the basement freezer, walk-in fridge or anywhere else where he body would have been in a different position FIRST (that's the key word). The FIRST livor pattern remains, even if a second one forms over it. And if rigor was broken in order to straighten her legs it cannot re-form, so her legs would not have been in rigor when she was found and we all know they were in FULL rigor, indicating she had been in that position for about 12 hours. Livor mortis forms before rigor mortis and even if she was still flexible at that point, another pattern would have formed first.
    However there is one scenario where her body could have been moved and nothing would have changed and that is if she was still in the same position, but further back into the wineceller where FW would not have seen her when he looked that morning. If JR did move her during his "disappearance", he could have pulled her along the floor and not disturbed the livor pattern (assuming it was not "fixed" already) or rigor mortis, as pulling her, especially if it was the blanket that was pulled while she was lying on it, would not have broken rigor.

    If you are asking if it was their INTENTION to put her in the suitcase and take her on that trip or somewhere else- of course we have no way of knowing. BUT- corpses are messy. They leak. They stink. And it happens relatively quickly with no embalming and no refrigeration. I simply do not believe they planned to take her anywhere in the suitcase. You do not need to be a professional to understand what would occur with an untreated dead body in a matter of hours.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    Possibly, but she was never placed in it. Here's why: TWO things about the condition of JB's body when she was found PROVE that she was never bent, folded, or put in any position at all other than the one she was found in after she died. Livor mortis (the pooling of blood in a corpse after the heart stops pumping it) and rigor mortis (stiffening of the body caused by build up of lactic acid and other changes in blood chemistry after the heart stops pumping oxygen through the blood) indicate that she was placed on her back, head cocked to the right, legs out straight shortly after death. This means that she was never stuffed into that suitcase because even if it was attempted before rigor set in, there would be TWO livor patterns instead of one on the body- there was only one- the one consistent with the way she was found. It also means she was not hidden in the basement freezer, walk-in fridge or anywhere else where he body would have been in a different position FIRST (that's the key word). The FIRST livor pattern remains, even if a second one forms over it. And if rigor was broken in order to straighten her legs it cannot re-form, so her legs would not have been in rigor when she was found and we all know they were in FULL rigor, indicating she had been in that position for about 12 hours. Livor mortis forms before rigor mortis and even if she was still flexible at that point, another pattern would have formed first.
    However there is one scenario where her body could have been moved and nothing would have changed and that is if she was still in the same position, but further back into the wineceller where FW would not have seen her when he looked that morning. If JR did move her during his "disappearance", he could have pulled her along the floor and not disturbed the livor pattern (assuming it was not "fixed" already) or rigor mortis, as pulling her, especially if it was the blanket that was pulled while she was lying on it, would not have broken rigor.

    If you are asking if it was their INTENTION to put her in the suitcase and take her on that trip or somewhere else- of course we have no way of knowing. BUT- corpses are messy. They leak. They stink. And it happens relatively quickly with no embalming and no refrigeration. I simply do not believe they planned to take her anywhere in the suitcase. You do not need to be a professional to understand what would occur with an untreated dead body in a matter of hours.
    DeeDee249,
    My understanding is that full rigor may take a minimum of 8-hours, and that lividity is a fluid process dependent upon the ambient temperature, and asumes a secific TOD so fix the lividity?

    Another variable is discoloration of the victims skin, where asphyxiation or blood clotting is apparent, then skin color is usually various shades of purple, due to oxygen depletion etc?

    So if you do the maths, JonBenet could have been killed around 5 AM, I'm obviously not claiming this as fact, but since JonBenet's core temperature was never established, and matched against the ambient temperature, who can say otherwise?

    So we may be able to make sound inferences from what is absent from JonBenet's postmortem profile?

    If you are asking if it was their INTENTION to put her in the suitcase and take her on that trip or somewhere else- of course we have no way of knowing.
    The question should really be, why did they not do so? Ramsey Plan Of Action: completely cleanup boulder house, then place JonBenet in a plastic bag, seal, place in a suitcase or similar luggage. Pay off pilot etc, fly off on vacation, dispose of body, then phone local police to report JonBenet missing?

    Again no proof but another indicator that the staging might have been rushed, since the asumption that JonBenet was kill prior to 1 AM, leaves a lacuna of such depth that I am at a loss to work out what her killer was doing for 5-hours?



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    Quote Originally Posted by eileenhawkeye View Post
    I just started reading it, so I don't know if there's anything new but The Denver Post has a website about cold cases and they are currently writing a 3-part series about the case.

    Here's Part 1: http://blogs.denverpost.com/coldcase...r-beaten/4464/

    Part 2: http://blogs.denverpost.com/coldcase...lou-smit/4569/

    Most of it is about Smit...

    And here's a new interactive timeline they made: http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_20...et-ramsey-case The timeline is actually pretty good.
    ty for posting the article, eileenhawkeye.



    hmmm, abrasions become 'twin bruises', intact cobwebs are significant
    when found on windows not deemed the point of entry, yet unmentioned when found intact on the exterior grate ......

    "Smit flashed pictures on his basement wall showing him crawling in through the window and than out again."

    * if only the video footage of LS's entry had not been edited .....

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    A diluted delusion.
    His delusions were diluted to the point of dilusion."

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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    DeeDee249,
    My understanding is that full rigor may take a minimum of 8-hours, and that lividity is a fluid process dependent upon the ambient temperature, and asumes a secific TOD so fix the lividity?
    My understanding is that both are dependent on ambient temp. Since we know she died in her own house, we only need to consider the relatively small temperature range within the house.

    Most basements are a few degrees cooler than the rest of the house, which would slow the processes. But only slightly, as the basement isn't "cold", just a "cool" relative to the upper stories of the home.

    Then too, she was wrapped in blanket, which would retain some heat.

    All in all I don't see that ambient temp played a big role -in the sense that exceptionally high or low temps were present. IOWs I don't see that rigor or livor were retarded/accelerated significantly by temp extremes.

    But those of us (myself included) who supposed that the 12 hour rule of thumb should apply may be wrong.

    http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedi.../timedeath.pdf

    It seems establishing TOD by rigor is very imprecise.

    From the link above, and paraphrasing - Onset is more rapid in children than young adults. It is delayed in cases of asphyxiation or where severe hemorrhaging.


    Also, from the autopsy report, "At the time of the initiation of the autopsy there is mild 1 to 2+ rigor mortis of the elbows and shoulders with more advanced 2 to 3+ rigor mortis of the joints of the lower extremities."

    So the body was not in full rigor when the autopsy was performed. This might indicate later onset than popularly supposed. OTOH, it may also suggest faster passing of the condition (rigor leaving the body).

    Another variable is discoloration of the victims skin, where asphyxiation or blood clotting is apparent, then skin color is usually various shades of purple, due to oxygen depletion etc?

    So if you do the maths, JonBenet could have been killed around 5 AM, I'm obviously not claiming this as fact, but since JonBenet's core temperature was never established, and matched against the ambient temperature, who can say otherwise?

    Core temp also seems to be an imprecise way of determining TOD.

    So we may be able to make sound inferences from what is absent from JonBenet's postmortem profile?


    The question should really be, why did they not do so? Ramsey Plan Of Action: completely cleanup boulder house, then place JonBenet in a plastic bag, seal, place in a suitcase or similar luggage. Pay off pilot etc, fly off on vacation, dispose of body, then phone local police to report JonBenet missing?

    Again no proof but another indicator that the staging might have been rushed, since the asumption that JonBenet was kill prior to 1 AM, leaves a lacuna of such depth that I am at a loss to work out what her killer was doing for 5-hours?



    .

    I don't have a problem wondering what they were doing. IOWs I don't think the staging necessarily suggests they were rushed -except to the extent that no amount of time is sufficient for people who don't know what they are doing, and so would feel rushed.

    But it certainly is possible that death occurred later than popularly assumed.

    The best reason to reject the idea that the Rs planned to put JB in the suitcase is the sheer difficulty of getting away with it.

    What if the pilot couldn't be bought off? And even if he was unaware of the dead body in the suitcase he is available to testify that the Rs took off for Mich. w/o JBR present.

    Then there is the additional complication of how to dispose of the body once in Michigan. The suitcase could be dropped in the lake, but who knows what the currents will do with it? It could be hidden in the woods, but when (if) found, do the Rs really want the body discovered in Michigan?

    It's possible the plan was briefly considered, but it almost certainly would have been rejected after a few moments consideration.
    I'm just playing detective here. I have no idea who killed JonBenet. It's just an opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrishope View Post
    My understanding is that both are dependent on ambient temp. Since we know she died in her own house, we only need to consider the relatively small temperature range within the house.

    Most basements are a few degrees cooler than the rest of the house, which would slow the processes. But only slightly, as the basement isn't "cold", just a "cool" relative to the upper stories of the home.

    Then too, she was wrapped in blanket, which would retain some heat.

    All in all I don't see that ambient temp played a big role -in the sense that exceptionally high or low temps were present. IOWs I don't see that rigor or livor were retarded/accelerated significantly by temp extremes.

    But those of us (myself included) who supposed that the 12 hour rule of thumb should apply may be wrong.

    http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedi.../timedeath.pdf

    It seems establishing TOD by rigor is very imprecise.

    From the link above, and paraphrasing - Onset is more rapid in children than young adults. It is delayed in cases of asphyxiation or where severe hemorrhaging.


    Also, from the autopsy report, "At the time of the initiation of the autopsy there is mild 1 to 2+ rigor mortis of the elbows and shoulders with more advanced 2 to 3+ rigor mortis of the joints of the lower extremities."

    So the body was not in full rigor when the autopsy was performed. This might indicate later onset than popularly supposed. OTOH, it may also suggest faster passing of the condition (rigor leaving the body).




    Core temp also seems to be an imprecise way of determining TOD.




    I don't have a problem wondering what they were doing. IOWs I don't think the staging necessarily suggests they were rushed -except to the extent that no amount of time is sufficient for people who don't know what they are doing, and so would feel rushed.

    But it certainly is possible that death occurred later than popularly assumed.

    The best reason to reject the idea that the Rs planned to put JB in the suitcase is the sheer difficulty of getting away with it.

    What if the pilot couldn't be bought off? And even if he was unaware of the dead body in the suitcase he is available to testify that the Rs took off for Mich. w/o JBR present.

    Then there is the additional complication of how to dispose of the body once in Michigan. The suitcase could be dropped in the lake, but who knows what the currents will do with it? It could be hidden in the woods, but when (if) found, do the Rs really want the body discovered in Michigan?

    It's possible the plan was briefly considered, but it almost certainly would have been rejected after a few moments consideration.
    Chrishope,
    It's possible the plan was briefly considered, but it almost certainly would have been rejected after a few moments consideration.
    Yes, I agree. They must have considered it, since air flight formed part of their escape plans.

    They must have also considered dumping her body away from the house, why they never is an interesting question?

    Also I think the conventional RDI theory might just be wrong. the differential between the core body temperature and the ambient temperature is supposed to yield a better estimate for TOD, rather than assuming the standard 12-hour rule.

    And if JonBenet's body was close to the ambient temperature which I think it was, then 8-hours to 80% rigor is entirely possible. Also her pallor is important to note since it will definitely rule out particular causes of death.

    What I am flagging up is that the time frame for JonBenet's death might be a shifting one, and it need not start prior to midnight. Which, for me, might explain the R's desire to claim as such.

    That is the physical staging takes care of the evidence thing, and the R's version of events takes care of the temporal thing, e.g. they were all sound asleep?

    Because, think deeply on this one, if they were not asleep, how did they miss some intruder creeping about their house, lifting JonBenet from her bed, sexually assaulting her, garroting her, then cleaning her up, redressing her in the size-12's, wrapping her in a blanket and casually placing her in the wine-cellar just before jumping out the basement window?


    All in all, it appears the conventional RDI is a mish mash of staged evidence, acceptance of the Ramsey version of events and theoretical timeframes based on generic pathology and the autopsy report.


    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    Chrishope,

    Yes, I agree. They must have considered it, since air flight formed part of their escape plans.

    They must have also considered dumping her body away from the house, why they never is an interesting question?

    Also I think the conventional RDI theory might just be wrong. the differential between the core body temperature and the ambient temperature is supposed to yield a better estimate for TOD, rather than assuming the standard 12-hour rule.

    And if JonBenet's body was close to the ambient temperature which I think it was, then 8-hours to 80% rigor is entirely possible. Also her pallor is important to note since it will definitely rule out particular causes of death.

    What I am flagging up is that the time frame for JonBenet's death might be a shifting one, and it need not start prior to midnight. Which, for me, might explain the R's desire to claim as such.

    That is the physical staging takes care of the evidence thing, and the R's version of events takes care of the temporal thing, e.g. they were all sound asleep?

    Because, think deeply on this one, if they were not asleep, how did they miss some intruder creeping about their house, lifting JonBenet from her bed, sexually assaulting her, garroting her, then cleaning her up, redressing her in the size-12's, wrapping her in a blanket and casually placing her in the wine-cellar just before jumping out the basement window?


    All in all, it appears the conventional RDI is a mish mash of staged evidence, acceptance of the Ramsey version of events and theoretical timeframes based on generic pathology and the autopsy report.


    .

    From what I've been reading lately, the standard 12 hour rule of determining TOD (e.g. full rigor in 12 hours) is not very precise. Temp of the core is not as precise as popularly supposed, though better than the 12 hour rule.

    It seems there is no forensic reason that TOD could not have been later. Maybe as late as 5am as you suggest, though I'd say that cuts things close. Possibly at the time the scream was heard, or the lights were seen by a neighbor?

    This means too that JB could have eaten the pineapple later in the night.

    Certainly there is no reason to put much stock in the Ramsey version of events - including their time line.

    We can only speculate that they had originally planned on dumping the body, as it is more consistent with a RN. And we can only speculate on why they didn't.

    Air flight did seem to be part of the plan, yet it's hard to believe they expected to be allowed to leave. (One of the few things the police did right was telling the Rs they couldn't fly away).
    I'm just playing detective here. I have no idea who killed JonBenet. It's just an opinion.

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    All this baloney about Smit and the "intruder" is going to be shown to be just that. Baloney.

    As I have been saying 2012 is a great year for the truth for JonBenet and it is getting closer and closer.

    The main stream media should be ashamed of themselves for not doing their due diligence on this case.

    The media is suppose to be our "watch dog". Press people are suppose to dig and dig until the truth sees the light.

    The Press is not suppose to take everything that is spoon fed them (by the people whom some consider suspects in this case) as gospel truth.

    Trust me on this one my friends.
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