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Thread: Ex-FBI employee claims she saw angels at 9/11 Flight 93 crash site

  1. #76
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    What difference does a name or title make?

    What some see and believe are guardian angels may be what others see and believe are guiding angels.
    Others may title them differently.

    I'm not really understanding the title issue to be quite honest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herding Cats View Post
    I also don't quite understand the use of the phrase "civil rights" in this context...

    To me, and I'd venture to say most folks, saying someone's faith is "magical thinking", which is a term applied regularly (and is considered a normal developmental milestone) to children, your use in this conversation is, to me, derogatory, as it's saying that someone is behaving childishly (e.g. at the magical thinking stage).

    Because of that, I take offense. I don't denigrate anyone's faith, if it's true and honest to them. It has nothing to do with civil rights; it has everything to do with respect. I don't say it's magical thinking...because of the derogatory connotation when used in describing an adult.

    But I also don't see the connection to civil rights.

    And don't worry about it being abrupt. It's all good...although I do appreciate the time you've taken to make sure it wasn't offensive.

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    Oh, please. The reference to civil rights was a parenthetical expression and I doubt anyone misunderstood it in context.

    HC, why do your magical beliefs deserve my "respect"? Unless you can prove their validity, why are they more deserving than anyone else's imaginary notions? I don't demand that you "respect" my magical beliefs. You can agree with them or laugh yourself silly. It's all the same to me.

    At the same time, slightly less than half of all Americans think I deserve fewer civil rights primarily based on their magical thinking. In their cases, I think it's quite reasonable that I not only don't "respect" their beliefs, I actively DISrespect them.

    What you DO deserve is protection from discrimination because you hold beliefs in phenomena that cannot be observed. And that is provided by law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimberlyd125 View Post
    What difference does a name or title make?

    What some see and believe are guardian angels may be what others see and believe are guiding angels.
    Others may title them differently.

    I'm not really understanding the title issue to be quite honest.
    What difference does anything we discuss here make? These are casual conversations, not formal scientific inquiries.

    But since you ask, if one doesn't assume that something supernatural is "guarding" one in the first place, maybe one's faith won't be threatened (as so many people report that it is) when something bad happens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    Why "guardian" angels? Why not "guiding" angels? Or "welcoming" angels" Or just "damn glad to see ya" angels?

    Seems to me words are being used very casually here. From what does a transitioning soul need to be "guarded"?

    (ETA my initial skepticism wasn't that the woman saw something, but that someone (apparently the newspaper reporter) assumed they were "guardian" angels. Another poster who has read the woman's book says she does not use the term "guardian". See above.)
    In my dad's case they appeared to be guarding a doorway, not the entrance to the room, but a heavenly entrance....and I use the word guarding because they were magnificent and powerful, and that's what they seemed to be doing. My dad's spirit had already passed and his body taken away, so he wasn't being guarded.

    In the Christian belief system, angels are there to do God's will and to glorify Him, their purpose may not seem intuitive to you or me.

    In my case, I have a science degree and am quite rational, not given to flights of fantasy or superstition. I was not overly emotional or grief-stricken at the time (more disbelief that he was gone and relieved that his suffering was over). This experience was the last thing I expected to happen.

    Given my experience on the small scale, I can only imagine the spiritual impact of so many souls leaving earth at the same time and in the same place. Legions of angels sounds right to me.

    I don't buy in to your sterotypical view of what a guardian angel is or what their job is. God and His angels did not interfere with the free will of the flight 93 hijackers to take down that plane. It was an evil act done by evil men.

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    For the love of--well, for the love of what is most human and holy in one another--please agree to disagree respectfully.

    Please, if a fellow poster posts something that you think violates TOS or the Rules, then just alert on it and move on.

    This post lands at random.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    Oh, please. The reference to civil rights was a parenthetical expression and I doubt anyone misunderstood it in context.

    HC, why do your magical beliefs deserve my "respect"? Unless you can prove their validity, why are they more deserving than anyone else's imaginary notions? I don't demand that you "respect" my magical beliefs. You can agree with them or laugh yourself silly. It's all the same to me.

    At the same time, slightly less than half of all Americans think I deserve fewer civil rights primarily based on their magical thinking. In their cases, I think it's quite reasonable that I not only don't "respect" their beliefs, I actively DISrespect them.

    What you DO deserve is protection from discrimination because you hold beliefs in phenomena that cannot be observed. And that is provided by law.
    I'm sorry, Nova. But how we got from legions of angels to gay marriage (that is what you're referring to, isn't it?) is quite literally beyond me. And I don't know if this is the appropriate thread to voice that issue on.

    And I certainly don't agree that you should actively "DISrespect" anyone for their faith.

    Sorry, Nova, but once again, you've led conversation into a dead end, at least for me, and I'm not willing to have any further conversation about this with you on this particular thread (but by all means, we can converse topically on other topics...as we've tried before).

    As for me, I believe that the writer had an amazing, life changing experience that she believes were legions of angels. And I respect her for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herding Cats View Post
    I'm sorry, Nova. But how we got from legions of angels to gay marriage (that is what you're referring to, isn't it?) is quite literally beyond me....
    It was simply a parenthetical aside from me, a qualified exception to my statement that I don't hold magical thinking against anyone.

    Sorry, Nova, but once again, you've led conversation into a dead end, at least for me, and I'm not willing to have any further conversation about this with you on this particular thread (but by all means, we can converse topically on other topics...as we've tried before).
    BBM: Ah, yes, there we have it. Mandatory respect for those who believe all sorts of nonsense, not so much for those who question it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wfgodot View Post
    Ah well, yea or nay, a good excuse for a great Hendrix song:
    Jimi Hendrix - Angel (HD 1080p) - YouTube
    Thanks just wasn't enough here!

    I've read this thread over twice. I'm on the fence as to what I think about this woman's claims - sorta leaning off the fence in the other direction. When I got to your post - I was relieved! Yes! A Jimi Hendrix song! There are Angels!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gypsy Road View Post
    Thanks just wasn't enough here!

    I've read this thread over twice. I'm on the fence as to what I think about this woman's claims - sorta leaning off the fence in the other direction. When I got to your post - I was relieved! Yes! A Jimi Hendrix song! There are Angels!
    "Jimi said it, I believe it, and that settles it," lol.
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    Just to be clear, since we've wandered of late: I'm not questioning that the woman saw something. I have no way of testing what she did or did not see. Myself, I do believe there is more to the universe than what we normally perceive with the five senses, including perhaps beings that some might call angels. It's not the term I would use, but that's just a matter of semantics.

    But the assumption that angels, if they exist and if she saw them, were "guardian" angels strikes me as wishful thinking. And frankly, if one of my relatives had died on that flight and somebody claimed "guardian" angels were near by, I think I'd be offended at the presumption.

    (To be fair, the term "guardian" seems to have come from the reporter, not the author of the book. A poster who has read the book says she found no such term.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    Just to be clear, since we've wandered of late: I'm not questioning that the woman saw something. I have no way of testing what she did or did not see. Myself, I do believe there is more to the universe than what we normally perceive with the five senses, including perhaps beings that some might call angels. It's not the term I would use, but that's just a matter of semantics.

    But the assumption that angels, if they exist and if she saw them, were "guardian" angels strikes me as wishful thinking. And frankly, if one of my relatives had died on that flight and somebody claimed "guardian" angels were near by, I think I'd be offended at the presumption.

    (To be fair, the term "guardian" seems to have come from the reporter, not the author of the book. A poster who has read the book says she found no such term.)
    Nova, I think the term may mean different things to different people.

    Many (like me) believe you are given a guardian angel at conception and that angel stays with you throughout your life. At the time of your death, the angel is with you as a guide on your journey to Heaven.

    Not that the angel will prevent anything bad from ever happening to you.

    So if you take that meaning, the ex FBI employee may have seen guardian angels.

    I know not everyone believes this. But many do.

    And that may be why the term "guardian angel" was used.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimberlyd125 View Post
    Nova, I think the term may mean different things to different people.

    Many (like me) believe you are given a guardian angel at conception and that angel stays with you throughout your life. At the time of your death, the angel is with you as a guide on your journey to Heaven.

    Not that the angel will prevent anything bad from ever happening to you.

    So if you take that meaning, the ex FBI employee may have seen guardian angels.

    I know not everyone believes this. But many do.

    And that may be why the term "guardian angel" was used.

    JMO
    I think that under the circumstances, the term should have been qualified when used in the article. But that's not something you or I can control.

    I hope the mods will indulge me, because this is a serious question, not an attempt to start an argument about religion.

    Kimberly, what does the guardian angel do during our lifetimes, in your view? Please feel free to PM me if you think we are getting into a problematic area here. I am genuinely interested in your opinion on this. (And I suspect I have some similar ideas, FWIW.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    I think that under the circumstances, the term should have been qualified when used in the article. But that's not something you or I can control.

    I hope the mods will indulge me, because this is a serious question, not an attempt to start an argument about religion.

    Kimberly, what does the guardian angel do during our lifetimes, in your view? Please feel free to PM me if you think we are getting into a problematic area here. I am genuinely interested in your opinion on this. (And I suspect I have some similar ideas, FWIW.)
    In my view they are there with you for every step and every breath.
    They are there to guide you, comfort you, and if it's God's will, protect you.

    Personal story that is going on right now in my life.

    My 37 year old BIL is at the end stage of colorectal cancer. He was diagnosed Feb 2011.

    We were just told today that there is nothing else they can do for him. They are sending him home with palliative care to die.

    It is my belief, that his guardian angel that has been with him since he was conceived will continue to be with him through the next awful couple of weeks.
    I believe his guardian angel was with him at diagnosis, through chemo, through surgeries, through his pain. And he will not be alone when he passes.
    He will be guided Home and delivered into Jesus' loving arms.

    His wife's guardian angel will help her to be strong. Will comfort her.

    His children's guardian angels will do the same.

    Now, I realize that if you are not a believer, this sounds odd.

    Although they can not be proven through science, those that believe KNOW they are there.

    That's why we get a little offended when we are laughed at or considered crazy.

    Science is not the only truth in the world IMO.

    That's what Faith is. Believing even though we can't see it.

    JMO and sorry for rambling.
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    If my beliefs can't withstand a little ridicule, what good are they?


    There are a ton of different versions of this on the web-I think that the writer referred to in the OP had to expect ridicule and questioning. The general public will comment on what you put out there-she put her visions out there not just for comment, but for critique (which is what happens when a book is written and published). We dont know if her motivation was solely to share or to make money, or maybe both. We dont know if she had visions, or inhaled vapors from rocket fuel or saw vapors from rocket fuel...I wasnt there for sure. My mind goes to any work product she produced afterwards and whether or not it may be compromised now that she shared her visions. Perhaps she did share them which is how her PTSD diagnosis came about.

    All speculation on my part.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    Just to be clear, since we've wandered of late: I'm not questioning that the woman saw something. I have no way of testing what she did or did not see. Myself, I do believe there is more to the universe than what we normally perceive with the five senses, including perhaps beings that some might call angels. It's not the term I would use, but that's just a matter of semantics.

    But the assumption that angels, if they exist and if she saw them, were "guardian" angels strikes me as wishful thinking. And frankly, if one of my relatives had died on that flight and somebody claimed "guardian" angels were near by, I think I'd be offended at the presumption.

    (To be fair, the term "guardian" seems to have come from the reporter, not the author of the book. A poster who has read the book says she found no such term.)
    Nova, I'm kinda thinking the way you are thinking. I can't say what the woman saw, but I agree that the term "guardian" doesn't seem to fit at first thought. I do believe in the afterlife, and I do believe there are angels who are among us. Maybe what she saw were angels who were there to help the dead to the other side? Who knows for sure. Interesting stuff though - if you believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gypsy Road View Post
    Nova, I'm kinda thinking the way you are thinking. I can't say what the woman saw, but I agree that the term "guardian" doesn't seem to fit at first thought. I do believe in the afterlife, and I do believe there are angels who are among us. Maybe what she saw were angels who were there to help the dead to the other side? Who knows for sure. Interesting stuff though - if you believe.
    The angels have vast activities. In Heaven they act to glorify God and on earth they act to carry out God’s orders.

    Angels are messengers of good news 
e.g., the appearance of angels to the shepherds in bethlehem and to St.Mary.

    Angels can act to save people.
 In the corrupt city of Sodom there lived a man of God, Lot. When Sodom was doomed to destruction, God sent two angels to save Lot and his family (Gen. 19:1-22).

    Angels are executors of God’s judgments. 
King David, otherwise a great glorifier of God, sinned once against the Lord God, and God sent an angel with a drawn sword in his hand – and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men, until David repented and cried to God for mercy (I Chron. 21:1-17).
    “Bless the Lord, he His angels, mighty in strength, that perform His word, to hear the voice of His words “(Ps. 103:20).

    Angels are intercessors (those who pray for you). Just as you can ask for the prayers of Saints, you can also ask for the intercession of Angels.

    Angels can also be ministering spirits. “Are they not all ministering spirits sent for service, for the sake of those who shall inherit salvation” (Hebrews 1:14)

    Angels can also act as guardians. “He commands His angels regarding you to guard you in all your paths … The angel of the Lord encamps all around those who fear Him, and delivers them” (Psalm 91:11, 34:7) While blessing his grandchildren, Jacob said to Joseph:
 “The Angel who has redeemed me from all evil, she'll bless the lads.”–Genesis 48:16

    I think the ex-FBI agent saw angels that may have been sent to minister/provide comfort to those on the plane and to their grieving loved ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    I think that under the circumstances, the term should have been qualified when used in the article. But that's not something you or I can control.

    I hope the mods will indulge me, because this is a serious question, not an attempt to start an argument about religion.

    Kimberly, what does the guardian angel do during our lifetimes, in your view? Please feel free to PM me if you think we are getting into a problematic area here. I am genuinely interested in your opinion on this. (And I suspect I have some similar ideas, FWIW.)
    I'm not Kimberly, but I thought you might find these explanations helpful.
    http://www.antiochian.org/node/18443
    Amazon.com: Holy Angels (9780932506108): Mother Alexandra: Books
    http://www.orthotracts.org/new/evang...s-in-orthodoxy
    http://www.serfes.org/orthodox/angels.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimberlyd125 View Post
    In my view they are there with you for every step and every breath.
    They are there to guide you, comfort you, and if it's God's will, protect you.

    Personal story that is going on right now in my life.

    My 37 year old BIL is at the end stage of colorectal cancer. He was diagnosed Feb 2011.

    We were just told today that there is nothing else they can do for him. They are sending him home with palliative care to die.

    It is my belief, that his guardian angel that has been with him since he was conceived will continue to be with him through the next awful couple of weeks.
    I believe his guardian angel was with him at diagnosis, through chemo, through surgeries, through his pain. And he will not be alone when he passes.
    He will be guided Home and delivered into Jesus' loving arms.

    His wife's guardian angel will help her to be strong. Will comfort her.

    His children's guardian angels will do the same.

    Now, I realize that if you are not a believer, this sounds odd.

    Although they can not be proven through science, those that believe KNOW they are there.

    That's why we get a little offended when we are laughed at or considered crazy.

    Science is not the only truth in the world IMO.

    That's what Faith is. Believing even though we can't see it.

    JMO and sorry for rambling.
    Thank you very much, Kimberly. I hope you don't think *I* ever called you crazy.

    I think I understand what you mean. In fact, I'm a big fan of Jane Roberts' books; she describes something she calls an "oversoul" which functions similarly, but isn't based in Christian terms. To Roberts, the oversoul is a spiritual entity that manifests itself in various times and places (which when viewed chronologically we call reincarnation); we are each of us both a part of our oversoul and also individually ourselves.

    But the oversoul performs the same functions you ascribe to a guardian angel: comfort, guidance and spiritual companionship (sorry, that last term is so inadequate, but I trust you know what I mean). Since every soul creates its own reality, the oversoul doesn't dictate actions, but one might say it "collaborates".

    And I should probably stop there. I'm sure I've tried the patience of mods more than enough. But thank you for your response, which was very clear.

    Bottom line: speaking for myself, I wouldn't use the term "guardian" to describe angels at the scene of a plane crash. There's got to be a better way to put that. But I do understand how an angel may aid someone without actually shielding him/her from physical harm.

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  36. #94
    Coming late to the discussion, but I wonder if, in our modern-day lexicon, it's a little hard to say "angel" without saying "guardian". We hear the words together so much it's almost like one would expect to see them written with a hyphen: "guardian-angel". The "guardian" part, to me, carries with it the idea of personal/individualized, so that may be why people tack that word on oftentimes, more or less automatically....there is an implication there that is comforting to many.

    I don't mind my beliefs that have not been proven in a scientific laboratory being thought of as magical. Magical is good until it hurts others and then that becomes oppression.

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    From one of my all time favorite movies, Signs. I know it's just a movie, but it does contain some elements that might make it easier to see why some things happen the way they do, ...just sayin.

    One of my favorite scenes...

    Graham has a conversation with Merrill about his own faith. It's revealed that Graham no longer believes in God following the accident. He then says that there are "two kinds of people: those who see signs, miracles, and those who see coincidences. Which kind are you?" When Merrill asks him the same question, Graham does not answer.
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    Gabriel Garcia Marquez's short story A Very Old Man with Enormous Wings
    We are, I know not how, double in ourselves, so that what we believe we disbelieve, and cannot rid ourselves of what we condemn. (Michel de Montaigne)

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    Quote Originally Posted by waitin'4thewrld2chg View Post
    Coming late to the discussion, but I wonder if, in our modern-day lexicon, it's a little hard to say "angel" without saying "guardian". We hear the words together so much it's almost like one would expect to see them written with a hyphen: "guardian-angel". The "guardian" part, to me, carries with it the idea of personal/individualized, so that may be why people tack that word on oftentimes, more or less automatically....there is an implication there that is comforting to many.

    I don't mind my beliefs that have not been proven in a scientific laboratory being thought of as magical. Magical is good until it hurts others and then that becomes oppression.
    Beautifully put and I agree 100%. (Apparently, you didn't need to come to class until the last day. LOL)

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    Quote Originally Posted by wfgodot View Post
    Gabriel Garcia Marquez's short story A Very Old Man with Enormous Wings
    Meant to quote the first paragraph of the story; here it is:

    On the third day of rain they had killed so many crabs inside the house that Pelayo had to cross his drenched courtyard and throw them into the sea, because the newborn child had a temperature all night and they thought it was due to the stench. The world had been sad since Tuesday. Sea and sky were a single ash-gray thing and the sands of the beach, which on March nights glimmered like powdered light, had become a stew of mud and rotten shellfish. The light was so weak at noon that when Pelayo was coming back to the house after throwing away the crabs, it was hard for him to see what it was that was moving and groaning in the rear of the courtyard. He had to go very close to see that it was an old man, a very old man, lying face down in the mud, who, in spite of his tremendous efforts, couldn't get up, impeded by his enormous wings.
    We are, I know not how, double in ourselves, so that what we believe we disbelieve, and cannot rid ourselves of what we condemn. (Michel de Montaigne)

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    What if the angels were simply taking them home........guiding them ......

    What if those people were supposed to die that day? Their actions saved untold others....

    Their paths may have already been chosen.

    Something to think about.

    Since stories of angels have been told throughout history, I believe there is SOMETHING to them.

    And yes, I want to believe .....
    [/I]

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    I have magical beliefs. What a horrible, depressing thought to go a day without that magic, that personal belief system that helps to put this sometimes terrible world into perspective.

    I admit that some of my beliefs are magical, and I admit that some of those magical beliefs are nothing more than coping mechanisms. Is that what this agent saw, a coping mechanism manifested? Maybe.

    To me, as I said in my earlier post, it doesn't matter to me whether she saw angels or not. If she believes she saw angels, I am in no position to question that belief.
    JMO. Unless there's a link, I can't prove it.

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