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  1. #1
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    Gilgo Beach 4 Only (GB4)

    Hi,

    I open this thread for the discussion of the FB4 only. So no Shannan Gilbert focus please, just the four found wrapped in burlap at Gilgo Beach: Maureen Brainard Barnes, Melissa Barthelmy, Megan Waterman and Amber Lynn Costello.
    Sometimes, being a squirrel can be a real nutjob!

  2. #2
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    Minimal Victimology

    The trick with the minimal victimology is, to concentrate on the victims, one knows, were killed by one and the same killer. In this case the GB4. The significant points for this victimology are:

    • Found in one clustered, revisitable dump site
    • Wrapped in burlap
    • All along the road
    Sometimes, being a squirrel can be a real nutjob!

  3. #3
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    Thank you so much Peter for starting this topic.

    One thing we do know is that our suspect has got to be familiar with NYC and the Bronx because there is zero proof that Maureen or Melissa were anywhere near Long Island when they disappeared.

    Maureen was most likely abducted in NYC and Melissa near her home in the Bronx.

    Does this not suggest that there is almost a 50% chance that the killer resides (or once resided) in NYC?

  4. #4
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    New B post...

    I post the following links for those whom have not seen it. It gives some examples of what kind of work one would/could be doing using burlap and other uses.

    Ill read about the 4 women.
    Kinda surprised the LEOs released that information about the burlap.


    [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burlap[/ame]

    [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortification_of_the_flesh"]Mortification of the flesh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    And I agree the four killed by the same individual/s. Probably just one.
    Seemed to have stopped. after the 4th. The chances of someone else by chance wrapping them in burlap and then by chance leaving them in the same area as others I would say no chance.


    Maureen Brainard Barnes, Melissa Barthelmy...Sounds like they came straight out of a phone-book/yearbook.

    What is Melissa's middle name?


    Peter what information, what stumbling blocks about these 4 you are trying to uncover/remove? Besides who killed them, What at this point are you wanting to know about these 4?

    http://gothamist.com/2011/04/04/thre...ap_sacks_f.php
    Part of the problem with finding the bodies is the underbrush is a thick "4-foot-tall tangle of sea grass punctuated by scrubby pine trees" (

    Police said a man was walking with his dog on a trail off of North Street, less than a mile west of Wading River Road, when he discovered human skeletal remains at approximately 6:30 p.m. The remains were found in a heavily wooded area just 300 feet north of the road, with trees "growing through" them.
    Last edited by :+:MrTT:+:; 07-06-2012 at 09:26 PM.

    :+:Anneliese Michel:+:

    [21 September 19521 July 1976]

    [Second chapter twelfth verse of [
    :+:Philippians:+:]
    [Work out your own salvation, with fear and trembling]
    :+:Emily Rose:+:




  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seaslug44 View Post
    Thank you so much Peter for starting this topic.

    One thing we do know is that our suspect has got to be familiar with NYC and the Bronx because there is zero proof that Maureen or Melissa were anywhere near Long Island when they disappeared.

    Maureen was most likely abducted in NYC and Melissa near her home in the Bronx.

    Does this not suggest that there is almost a 50% chance that the killer resides (or once resided) in NYC?
    Somewhere in between?......That is a good distance from where they were last seen to where they were found yes?

    :+:Anneliese Michel:+:

    [21 September 19521 July 1976]

    [Second chapter twelfth verse of [
    :+:Philippians:+:]
    [Work out your own salvation, with fear and trembling]
    :+:Emily Rose:+:




  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seaslug44 View Post
    Thank you so much Peter for starting this topic.

    One thing we do know is that our suspect has got to be familiar with NYC and the Bronx because there is zero proof that Maureen or Melissa were anywhere near Long Island when they disappeared.

    Maureen was most likely abducted in NYC and Melissa near her home in the Bronx.

    Does this not suggest that there is almost a 50% chance that the killer resides (or once resided) in NYC?
    Well, technically, since Megan was most of the time in NYC, I think, Bronx too and she and Cruz visited LI only twice a month (as in about all two weeks) to meet with clients, it's more like 62.5% or higher and if you calculate in Amber Lynn Costello lived basically in the middle between the LI scene on those islands and the club scene of Manhattan, it's probably at least 75% chance, the connection is NYC. The point, I don't know yet, is is it Bronx or rather Manhattan, the private club scene. Remember Megan offered femdom, that's an entirely different client profile than for the other three. The only place, they are near to each other appears to me the club area between Hell's Kitchen and 45th or 46th Street. Maureen. But then, I hesitate to send one of our locals to the whip clubs to sleuth around ...
    Sometimes, being a squirrel can be a real nutjob!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by :+:MrTT:+: View Post
    Somewhere in between?......That is a good distance from where they were last seen to where they were found yes?
    The behavioral side doesn't fit. If this would be a homicidal john, he would have to be sadist and masochist in one. So what we're looking for is a scene, a place, where basically all tastes mingle. I found one of those places, but feel uncertain whether there are more in the area.
    Sometimes, being a squirrel can be a real nutjob!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Brendt View Post
    The behavioral side doesn't fit. If this would be a homicidal john, he would have to be sadist and masochist in one. So what we're looking for is a scene, a place, where basically all tastes mingle. I found one of those places, but feel uncertain whether there are more in the area.
    What about a rave I believe there called. Different places Different days etc.
    The motive here was to kill. It wasn't about sex first and foremost. But to kill that was the main motive. But instead of going out and finding a victim, he had them come to him.

    Didn't these girls keep a appointment book. Letting someone know if read where they were going and what time etc etc. I am confused about the Craigslist connection. How this developed.

    Do we have any of there advertisements to look at? How they presented themselves.
    They must had been independents yes?

    I am sure he made his own snuff tapes. To enjoy later.
    Last edited by :+:MrTT:+:; 07-06-2012 at 08:59 PM.

    :+:Anneliese Michel:+:

    [21 September 19521 July 1976]

    [Second chapter twelfth verse of [
    :+:Philippians:+:]
    [Work out your own salvation, with fear and trembling]
    :+:Emily Rose:+:




  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by :+:MrTT:+: View Post
    What about a rave I believe there called. Different places Different days etc.
    The motive here was to kill. It wasn't about sex first and foremost. But to kill that was the main motive. But instead of going out and finding a victim, he had them come to him.

    Didn't these girls keep a appointment book. Letting someone know if read where they were going and what time etc etc. I am confused about the Craigslist connection. How this developed.

    Do we have any of there advertisements to look at? How they presented themselves.
    They must had been independents yes?

    I am sure he made his own snuff tapes. To enjoy later.
    I don't know if there are sex scene raves, but that doesn't mean there aren't. Merely that I don't know.
    The problem I have with the "homicidal john" theory is, it doesn't fit on any level. As soon, as you have two different last johns or one of the girls "off-duty", you need to construct a lot to hold upright that theory. For example, Maureen was last heard off from that bus terminal. To make the homicidal john happen, you need to construct, she decided, against what was already her outspoken intention, to take on another client. This client had to happen by chance a serial killer in the making, who has already developed a fully blown signature, which means, also his hunting behavior was fully developed ... only, this one night, he had to be for unknown reasons under way in a car to meet by chance Maureen. You see, how far this construction has to go to bring all four under one hat. So I don't believe in a homicidal john. And if it would be one, we would have heard since a while from other Craigslist escorts, who had this strange wannabe john, they rejected, the whole works as usual in similar cases.
    Thus, their appointment book wouldn't help us. However, you can bet on him making video or stills not only while killing them but also before.
    Sometimes, being a squirrel can be a real nutjob!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Brendt View Post
    I don't know if there are sex scene raves, but that doesn't mean there aren't. Merely that I don't know.
    The problem I have with the "homicidal john" theory is, it doesn't fit on any level. As soon, as you have two different last johns or one of the girls "off-duty", you need to construct a lot to hold upright that theory. For example, Maureen was last heard off from that bus terminal. To make the homicidal john happen, you need to construct, she decided, against what was already her outspoken intention, to take on another client. This client had to happen by chance a serial killer in the making, who has already developed a fully blown signature, which means, also his hunting behavior was fully developed ... only, this one night, he had to be for unknown reasons under way in a car to meet by chance Maureen. You see, how far this construction has to go to bring all four under one hat. So I don't believe in a homicidal john. And if it would be one, we would have heard since a while from other Craigslist escorts, who had this strange wannabe john, they rejected, the whole works as usual in similar cases.
    Thus, their appointment book wouldn't help us. However, you can bet on him making video or stills not only while killing them but also before.
    I am searching the web, looking and reading information on the girls.
    And i was thinking a rave party, where its a secret place to hold a party, people attend this events dressed in all kinds of outfits and drugs like estacey are used. He could have hid his appearance going to these.

    But I agree this was no John. No sex John. He chose prostitutes because they are easy targets. But he was not a paying John. But I am sure he had has plenty of cash to pay these higher price women if he wanted to. This is no idiot.
    And spread out over time. A certain time would arise, and he would act upon it.

    Ill stop posting for now. And just read the web about the girls.
    Thank you for your help.

    :+:Anneliese Michel:+:

    [21 September 19521 July 1976]

    [Second chapter twelfth verse of [
    :+:Philippians:+:]
    [Work out your own salvation, with fear and trembling]
    :+:Emily Rose:+:





  11. #11
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    As we all know, the girls seemed to comfortably let their guard down. There has been all sorts of speculation as to the LISK portraying himself as law enforcement, a political leader or even a VIP in an organized crime family (one of my thoughts). I have been exploring this from another angle;

    Asking- What did each of the GB4 need or want so badly?

    The thought process here is that if a person needs or wants something bad enough, they will be willing to go outside of their comfort zone to get it.

    So here is my short list of motivators that the LISK could have possibly utilized to lure them in;

    • The promise of a large sum of money.
    • The promise of a large score of drugs.
    • The promise of an escape from the hold of a pimp.
    • The promise of a better life for them & their children (for those with kids).
    • The promise of a clean escape from the business.
    • The promise of a real job to replace the escorting.
    • The promise of something expensive (like a new car or expensive jewelry).
    • The promise not to hurt them or their families (as a blackmail tactic).
    • The promise to star in a high paying adult movie.
    • The promise of access to more higher paying clientele.
    • The promise to take them on an exotic vacation.
    • The promise to bring them to a party where they could meet celebrities.
    • The promise of a date with a celebrity or other extremely wealthy man.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seaslug44 View Post
    As we all know, the girls seemed to comfortably let their guard down. There has been all sorts of speculation as to the LISK portraying himself as law enforcement, a political leader or even a VIP in an organized crime family (one of my thoughts). I have been exploring this from another angle;

    Asking- What did each of the GB4 need or want so badly?

    The thought process here is that if a person needs or wants something bad enough, they will be willing to go outside of their comfort zone to get it.

    So here is my short list of motivators that the LISK could have possibly utilized to lure them in;

    • The promise of a large sum of money.
    • The promise of a large score of drugs.
    • The promise of an escape from the hold of a pimp.
    • The promise of a better life for them & their children (for those with kids).
    • The promise of a clean escape from the business.
    • The promise of a real job to replace the escorting.
    • The promise of something expensive (like a new car or expensive jewelry).
    • The promise not to hurt them or their families (as a blackmail tactic).
    • The promise to star in a high paying adult movie.
    • The promise of access to more higher paying clientele.
    • The promise to take them on an exotic vacation.
    • The promise to bring them to a party where they could meet celebrities.
    • The promise of a date with a celebrity or other extremely wealthy man.
    Great list and whatever it was he told Megan and Amber, he got them to leave their cell phones at home along with it, giving them some story that seemed plausible to them.

  13. #13
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    GB4 Timeline chart

    Here is an easy viewable chart for the GB4. Just to give us a visual resource.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seaslug44 View Post
    As we all know, the girls seemed to comfortably let their guard down. There has been all sorts of speculation as to the LISK portraying himself as law enforcement, a political leader or even a VIP in an organized crime family (one of my thoughts). I have been exploring this from another angle;

    Asking- What did each of the GB4 need or want so badly?

    The thought process here is that if a person needs or wants something bad enough, they will be willing to go outside of their comfort zone to get it.

    So here is my short list of motivators that the LISK could have possibly utilized to lure them in;

    • The promise of a large sum of money.
    • The promise of a large score of drugs.
    • The promise of an escape from the hold of a pimp.
    • The promise of a better life for them & their children (for those with kids).
    • The promise of a clean escape from the business.
    • The promise of a real job to replace the escorting.
    • The promise of something expensive (like a new car or expensive jewelry).
    • The promise not to hurt them or their families (as a blackmail tactic).
    • The promise to star in a high paying adult movie.
    • The promise of access to more higher paying clientele.
    • The promise to take them on an exotic vacation.
    • The promise to bring them to a party where they could meet celebrities.
    • The promise of a date with a celebrity or other extremely wealthy man.
    Its just a guess. But I don't think he killed them on the same day he met them for the first time. I think he may had groom them for that final day. And perhaps groomed over a period of time. Made them eventually feel comfortable with being with him from seeing him over a period of time.

    The first meeting sure they had there guards up because they knew the risk. But over a period of time with there interactions with him they became lapsed and just seen him as a person seeking companionship whatever.

    Could explain why the two left there cells at home. They were going away for awhile couple of days or whatever and decided they didn't want to be bothered with the phone so left it home on the charger.

    Did any of these women have vehicles? And if so where were they found?
    That last meeting place they went to, I suspect they had no driver of course to get there. And a cab was not a option. He could have just met them somewhere and picked them up himself. Or if any had a vehicle and drove it to the final place, He could have just returned it to where they were living to make it appear they had just vanished.

    Which MB sister received the phone-calls?

    :+:Anneliese Michel:+:

    [21 September 19521 July 1976]

    [Second chapter twelfth verse of [
    :+:Philippians:+:]
    [Work out your own salvation, with fear and trembling]
    :+:Emily Rose:+:




  15. #15
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    I'm posting this because I'm interested in your comments about it; maybe you can help me add some pieces to a puzzle. I can't be too specific now, and I know that's frustrating - obviously it impedes your ability to assess my remarks; I hope I can be more forthcoming soon. Until recently, I was only peripherally aware of the Oak Beach killings, as I no longer live on Long Island. But a few weeks ago I did a sort of "where are they now" search on someone I once knew; he was sort of a scary person, and probably the first person I would've thought of if playing the "who from your hometown would you imagine to be a serial killer" game. When seeing that the internet info for this person (I'll call him POI from here on) showed an Oak Beach address for sometime after the period I knew him, I remembered the news stories about the serial killings. At which point I easily found a reference to the POI and burlap; he had access to plenty of it. Wondering if he might actually be a suspect in the case, on a lark I Google'd his name with the word "killer", immediately turning up a very odd claim by a blogger that my POI is the killer. I wrote the blogger twice, and he hasn't responded. My curiosity piqued, and already armed with my own knowledge of the POI, I continued to look into his activities over recent years, and he seems more and more like "a fit". Familiarity with the Oak Beach/Gilgo area? Check. Apartment in NYC? Check. Familiarity with police procedures (though he's not a cop or ex-cop), technologically savvy, independently wealthy, intelligent, persuasive and manipulative? "Checks" all around (the only major thing that differs from the standard LISK profiles I see is the age - this guy would have been slightly older). And, as I say, a bad apple, who was involved in two businesses (one illegal, one not) that are intrinsically related to the world that prostitutes live in. Another thing about my POI - he's dead, having passed away early last year. There are some odd things about that (the death, I mean, like no obits or funeral notices, but I guess I can understand that), and if I ever wrote a fictionalized novel of this I'd have all sorts of curious tangents to employ as plot lines.
    Anyway, I looked into it for a couple of weeks (on the net, and by talking to other people who had known the POI); I was trying to stay objective about it even as my certainty that it was at least a "hot lead" grew. The POI would surely, I surmised, be someone the police were already looking at; he'd had run-in's with the law previously. Still, I gave the TIPS line a call, but decided not to give them my story because I wasn't particularly impressed with the person I spoke with (and that could just be my personal experience, they might be top-notch otherwise). I dug around online for a Suffolk homicide number, discovered that the ones I was dialing weren't working, and finally got a good number from the front-desk of my hometown's police department. I spoke to a homicide detective who assured me he'd relay the information to the proper department. After a week, when I discovered a new link that was probably more significant than anything I'd already described to the detective, I called that detective back; he suggested I email him some information, which I did. After about another week went by (with, obviously, no contact from anyone), I called someone who is not a policeman but who would know them, and who would have a professional interest in seeing that good leads are pursued; someone who is, from what I can see on the net, a respected and competent person. Well, my story pretty much blew him away; he said that he'd heard so many stories about the LISK, but that mine really had something to it. He said he knows all the people on the task force dedicated to this crime, and that he'd be able to find out right away if my POI's name was in the database being worked. So I sent him a long email with links and pics. He got back to me saying that he'd forwarded my info to a certain detective (so, by inference, perhaps that means that my POI's name was not being looked at), and that he considered it likely that the detective would contact me. More than a week has gone by, and I've not been contacted.
    That's where it stands now. Maybe I'll be contacted next week, or maybe never. I can't very well keep prodding my recent contact, as he's done what he can to alert the police of my lead. In fact, other than write a fictionalized novel about it (and I'm only half-kidding there), I guess there's not much else I can do. To the extent that I can, I'd be happy to answer questions you might have about my POI, though I'm not about to name him here or privately at this time; he did have a family. I'll say (maddeningly!) that I can see this POI not being a serial killer proper, perhaps more driven by a "motive" for dumping bodies where he did.

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