View Poll Results: Should the NCAA give Penn State the "death penalty"?

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  • No. It's not fair to students, players, or coaches who had nothing to do with this scandal.

    28 29.79%
  • Yes, for one year.

    12 12.77%
  • Yes, for two years.

    10 10.64%
  • Yes, for three years.

    9 9.57%
  • Yes, for four (or more) years.

    32 34.04%
  • Not sure.

    5 5.32%
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Thread: NCAA Sanctions: "DP" for Penn Football, or...?

  1. #1
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    NCAA Sanctions: "DP" for Penn Football, or...?

    Continue discussion of possible NCAA sanctions against Penn State football here.
    Last edited by ynotdivein; 07-20-2012 at 07:48 PM.
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    If Penn State doesn’t shut down football program, the NCAA should

    Thought it would be good to have a place just to discuss and post articles about what should happen with the Penn State football team.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...=pm_sports_pop

    By Jason Reid, Published: July 13

    The NCAA’s 444-page manual contains no language directly addressing appopriate punishment for concealing information regarding child sexual abuse. But in light of the shameful conduct of Penn State’s leadership, revealed Thursday in the Freeh report, the NCAA must use its authority to do what’s needed now: Shut down the Nittany Lions football program.

    If the Freeh report released Thursday is accurate in its assessment of the university’s role in the worst scandal in college sports history, then the engine that enabled longtime child sexual predator Jerry Sandusky must be switched off, at least temporarily.

    The good news is that the NCAA is at least examining what its role should be in this horrific mess.

    The organization is awaiting Penn State’s response to a November letter sent by NCAA President Mark Emmert, in which Emmert requested answers to questions “concerning compliance with institutional control and ethics policies.” The key matter for the NCAA to determine is whether its authority to punish for “lack of institutional control” is as applicable to egregious criminal behavior as it is to providing extra benefits to teenagers.
    ------

    The football-driven culture at Penn State is so warped that the school’s current leadership should act to obliterate it without a NCAA mandate. It has happened before.

    Disgraced by its prominent men’s basketball team, the University of San Francisco canceled the program for three seasons in the early 1980s. The school was widely applauded for being the first to shut down an out-of-control program in a major sport.


    More at link....

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    IA but alas, I don't think Penn State would ever do that(after listening to the pressers on Thursday and Friday, I really don't think they take responsibility for what happened, they may say it but I think it's all lipservice) and the NCAA is way too gutless to do it. Although I suppose public sentiment might sway them but I doubt it. I just don't see them doing anything.

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    Punishment from the NC2A in the Penn State football program scandal is a very touchy subject.

    The fans, or should they be called the die-hard fans, will scream out that it's not fair to punish those who had nothing to do with the crime of not reporting child rape. And that group of family and friends of the current and incoming football players will also be outrage at the unfairness of closing down the program, for whatever time the NC2A deems necessary.

    But here's the thing: while it may appear that the wrong people are being punished by taking away the program, what's really going on is Penn State no longer deserves the trust and goodwill for its program and for that matter its administration.

    If you have a bar or tavern that continues to have bloody battles or serves underage drinkers or a hospital that keeps making deadly mistakes, you shut them down. And when this happens it appears a lot of innocent people have to do without.

    While I too have an allegency to a college football team or two (Purde and ASU) I have to look at the big picture. There are other college teams across the country where players can transfer and where fans can direct their cheers.

    Penn State needs to stop the motion. They need to focus on the schools reputation now. Time does heal.

    However, I sincerely hope that when it comes time for a decision to be made to put the PS football program on hold, the decision comes from within the University. That will be a big step toward accepting its punishment.

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    Penn State deserves NCAA wrath

    http://espn.go.com/college-football/...ned-wrath-ncaa

    If Ohio State can't play in a bowl game this season because former Buckeyes coach Jim Tressel lied to NCAA investigators about his players' receiving free tattoos, how can Penn State play in the postseason after former coach Joe Paterno helped cover up the horrific actions of a serial child rapist?

    If North Carolina can't play in the postseason this season because some of its players received improper benefits from agents and committed academic fraud, how can Penn State be eligible for the postseason after its former president and vice president, athletic director and legendary coach fostered a culture in which a pedophile used the school's facilities, sideline passes to games and bowl trips like candy to lure the young boys he molested?...........

    And the Nittany Lions should get hammered more than any other school in NCAA history............

    Spanier, former vice president Gary Schultz, athletic director Tim Curley and Paterno did more than protect Sandusky for more than 14 years. When Sandusky retired in 1999, a year before the janitor witnessed him sexually assaulting a young boy, Penn State officials sent him out with a golden parachute -- a lump sum payment of $168,000 -- and allowed him to walk away as a revered member of the football program, instead of as a child rapist. ..........

    During the next several months, the NCAA will weigh whether the Nittany Lions will face on-field sanctions for the Penn State administration's lack of action in stopping a child predator.

    Fortunately, Freeh and his group already have done the NCAA's work. If a massive cover-up of a child rapist's disgusting actions isn't a major violation, I'm not sure anything else is.

    More at link.....

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    Penn State football team should disband.




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    From link below:

    While some have said the entire sordid mess is outside of the NCAA’s purview, we all should argue the exact opposite. If the NCAA can’t penalize a coach and university that likely committed crimes by covering up heinous, violent acts by one of its leaders, then what is the point of existing?

    http://www.pnj.com/article/20120715/...CFRONTPAGE%7Cs
    No comment.

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    Phil Sheridan: Penn State deserves NCAA sanctions

    http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...tions.html?c=r

    You wonder.

    Now that you know unimaginable things about Penn State, you begin to wonder about the things you thought you knew. How does it all fit together?..........

    Was it the other way around? Was Paterno so secretive and frequently surly with the media because there were such dark secrets?..........

    Sandusky was conferred with emeritus status, which required a bending of the existing rules and allowed him rights and privileges that he used to assault children.

    Why do all of that for a 54-year-old employee who has just been questioned by police about inappropriate contact with a young boy? Why give Sandusky unlimited access to the facilities he'd admitted using to shower with two young boys?

    It just makes no sense unless there is a cause-and-effect relationship.........

    They agreed not to report the (2001) incident. A few months later, Penn State sold a parcel of land to the Second Mile for much less than its full value.

    These events may be unrelated. They sure look bad, knowing what we know now..........

    But the unsavory implications of the university's deals with Sandusky make serious NCAA sanctions seem more appropriate. At the very least, the NCAA should further investigate whether Penn State effectively rewarded Sandusky for stepping away from the football program and maintaining his own silence.

    If the NCAA sanctions athletic programs because players get free tattoos or cash, then it must act in the case of a university financing a pedophile in order to maintain the pristine image of its football program.

    That really is the picture the dots form, even if Freeh wasn't completely able to connect them...........

    The cover-up and the possible hush money, however, are very much a football scandal. And the football program should be punished accordingly.

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    Graham Spanier, disgraced ex-Penn State president, epitomized NCAA hypocrisy

    There is one instance in the Freeh Commission report where Graham Spanier, the disgraced former Penn State president, said enough is enough. One instance when he slammed down his authoritative fist to protect the welfare of his charges and the reputation of his institution.

    It wasn't against Jerry Sandusky, of course.

    It was December 1997 and Spanier was soon to learn that the longtime Penn State defensive coordinator had been accused of molesting a young boy while showering with him in the Penn State locker room, according to the Freeh report. But Spanier wouldn't stand up to old Jer, because that wouldn't be the "humane" way of handling it. Or so he wrote in an email.

    No, Sandusky got to keep fondling right under Spanier's nose for years to come.


    http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--...ff-nalley.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reader View Post
    Phil Sheridan: Penn State deserves NCAA sanctions

    http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...tions.html?c=r

    You wonder.

    Now that you know unimaginable things about Penn State, you begin to wonder about the things you thought you knew. How does it all fit together?..........

    Was it the other way around? Was Paterno so secretive and frequently surly with the media because there were such dark secrets?..........

    Sandusky was conferred with emeritus status, which required a bending of the existing rules and allowed him rights and privileges that he used to assault children.

    Why do all of that for a 54-year-old employee who has just been questioned by police about inappropriate contact with a young boy? Why give Sandusky unlimited access to the facilities he'd admitted using to shower with two young boys?

    It just makes no sense unless there is a cause-and-effect relationship.........

    They agreed not to report the (2001) incident. A few months later, Penn State sold a parcel of land to the Second Mile for much less than its full value.

    These events may be unrelated. They sure look bad, knowing what we know now..........

    But the unsavory implications of the university's deals with Sandusky make serious NCAA sanctions seem more appropriate. At the very least, the NCAA should further investigate whether Penn State effectively rewarded Sandusky for stepping away from the football program and maintaining his own silence.

    If the NCAA sanctions athletic programs because players get free tattoos or cash, then it must act in the case of a university financing a pedophile in order to maintain the pristine image of its football program.

    That really is the picture the dots form, even if Freeh wasn't completely able to connect them...........

    The cover-up and the possible hush money, however, are very much a football scandal. And the football program should be punished accordingly.
    The answer lies with Jer's establishment and position with The Second Mile. Penn State closely associated itself with TSM which at that time and place was as reputable as Special Olympics. Someone made the very flawed assumption that the goodwill toward the TSM's would reflect nicely on PSU. Therefore, Jer was given an office and he wormed his way back into the showers and nobody had the cajones or mercy (for his victims) to stop him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LNL View Post
    Graham Spanier, disgraced ex-Penn State president, epitomized NCAA hypocrisy

    There is one instance in the Freeh Commission report where Graham Spanier, the disgraced former Penn State president, said enough is enough. One instance when he slammed down his authoritative fist to protect the welfare of his charges and the reputation of his institution.

    It wasn't against Jerry Sandusky, of course.

    It was December 1997 and Spanier was soon to learn that the longtime Penn State defensive coordinator had been accused of molesting a young boy while showering with him in the Penn State locker room, according to the Freeh report. But Spanier wouldn't stand up to old Jer, because that wouldn't be the "humane" way of handling it. Or so he wrote in an email.

    No, Sandusky got to keep fondling right under Spanier's nose for years to come.


    http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--...ff-nalley.html
    Thanks for the link, LNL......interesting about how Spanier operated in the NCAA:

    The NCAA is often vilified. It isn't the workers at the Indianapolis headquarters who deserve scorn. It's the Spanier types, the presidents and commissioners who write the rules one committee meeting at a time (usually from a Florida beachfront hotel).

    He was a model of self-interest, distorted ethics and misplaced authority, much of it derived from the false concept that Penn State football operated on a higher ethical level than the rest of the country.

    "He'd always lean on the Penn State thing," said one administrator who served alongside Spanier on NCAA committees. "He always made the Penn State part known. Like, 'Well, we do it within the rules and still win at Penn State, at Penn State football. Why can't you? Why lower the bar? What's wrong with you?' "

    It was a lie and Graham Spanier knew it. Not just in the case of Sandusky. There's plenty more in the Freeh report. Incidents of the athletic department not following its own policies, not reporting potential violations, allowing head coach Joe Paterno's outsized influence on discipline and other issues. For years the school didn't even adhere to the federal Clery Act, which requires reporting crimes committed on campus.

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  23. #12
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    I struggle with the answer to this, tbh. I dont think the students should be punished because of administration. I think we need a lot more information about the motivation the big 4 had for having handled it this way, and I mean that sincerely. Not murky things alluded to in handwritten notes or incomplete emails. I feel in my heart that the whole truth needs to be told and I bet the spoils, so to speak (lightest sentence) will go to the one who comes nearest to the truth after making a deal with the DA's office. That being said, if the largest part of the motivation for the cover up is for the potential impact on the football program, then I think there has to be some kind of punishment.

    I dont know if anything will ever be enough. To go to Penn State now as a football player is going to be pretty tough to brag about.

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  25. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pensfan View Post
    The answer lies with Jer's establishment and position with The Second Mile. Penn State closely associated itself with TSM which at that time and place was as reputable as Special Olympics. Someone made the very flawed assumption that the goodwill toward the TSM's would reflect nicely on PSU. Therefore, Jer was given an office and he wormed his way back into the showers and nobody had the cajones or mercy (for his victims) to stop him.
    On page 57 of the Freeh report there is a letter from Paterno to Sandusky informing him that he would not be the next head coach BECAUSE of his association the Second Mile.

    On page 58, Sandusky responds with a letter requesting the following as part of his retirement:

    One of the documents provided from Paterno's file is a letter signed by Sandusky, dated May 28, 1999. In the letter Sandusky acknowledged that he would not be the next Penn State football head coach, and outlined options for his future. Sandusky wanted an on-going relationship between the Second Mile and Penn State, as well as continuing "visibility" at Penn State. Sandusky also wanted "active involvement in developing outreach program featuring Penn State Athletes" and sought "ways for (him) to continue to work with young people through Penn State."
    In the next paragraph Sandusky requested to start a middle school youth camp. Paterno noted that "Volunteer Position Director -- Postive Action for Youth."

    So there's really no evidence for what you're suggesting. Paterno did not appear to be concerned with the Second Mile. It was merely a distraction to someone who wanted the all-important job of head football coach at Penn State University.

    Sandusky requested the association with Penn State football and the Second Mile because he knew the Second Mile was nothing without that assocation. Or to put it another way: his ability to seduce and groom young boys without the lure of Penn State football would be greatly diminished. And he was right. After he was no longer allowed to bring children on campus, after 2001, the rate of his crimes slowed considerably (based on the crimes he was convicted of. There may have been more we aren't aware of).

    All that said, I do hope the Second Mile is thoroughly investigated. If anyone in that organization was aware of and covered up Sandusky's crimes, they need to go to prison.

    Here's part of the statement released by the organization after Sandusky was indicted:

    "The most recent reports we’ve read this past weekend state that Mr. Sandusky met the alleged victims through The Second Mile. To our knowledge, all the alleged incidents occurred outside of our programs and events.
    Does anyone know if this is still a true statement?


    JMO

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  27. #14
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    To our knowledge, all the alleged incidents occurred outside of our programs and events.
    Clearly it isnt. Sandusky's convictions included molestations that occurred at out of town games, IIRC. I will bring the conviction post over from one of the threads.

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  29. #15
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    The charges he was convicted of:

    http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/ind...t_complet.html

    VICTIM 1

    Count 1: Involuntary deviate sexual intercourse
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 2: Involuntary deviate sexual intercourse
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 3: Indecent assault
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 4: Unlawful contact with minors
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 5: Corruption of minors
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 6: Endangering welfare of children
    Verdict: Guilty.

    VICTIM 2

    Count 7: Involuntary deviate sexual intercourse
    Verdict: Not guilty.

    Count 8: Indecent assault
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 9: Unlawful contact with minors
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 10: Corruption of minors
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 11: Endangering welfare of children
    Verdict: Guilty.

    VICTIM 3

    Count 12: Indecent assault
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 13: Unlawful contact with minors
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 14: Corruption of minors
    Verdict: Guilty.
    Count 15: Endangering welfare of children
    Verdict: Guilty.

    VICTIM 4

    Count 16: Involuntary deviate sexual intercourse
    Verdict: Charge was dismissed

    Count 17: Involuntary deviate sexual intercourse
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 18: Involuntary deviate sexual intercourse
    Verdict: Charge was dismissed

    Count 19: Aggravated indecent assault
    Verdict: Charge was dismissed

    Count 20: Indecent assault
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 21: Unlawful contact with minors
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 22: Corruption of minors
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 23: Endangering welfare of children
    Verdict: Guilty.

    VICTIM 5

    Count 24: Indecent assault
    Verdict: Not guilty.

    Count 25: Unlawful contact with minors
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 26: Corruption of minors
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 27: Endangering welfare of children
    Verdict: Guilty.

    VICTIM 6

    Count 28: Indecent assault
    Verdict: Not guilty.

    Count 29: Unlawful contact with minors
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 30: Corruption of minors
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 31: Endangering welfare of children
    Verdict: Guilty.

    VICTIM 7

    Count 32: Criminal attempt to commit indecent assault
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 33: Unlawful contact with minors
    Verdict: Charge was dismissed

    Count 34: Corruption of minors
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 35: Endangering welfare of children
    Verdict: Guilty.

    VICTIM 8

    Count 36: Involuntary deviate sexual intercourse
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 37: Involuntary deviate sexual intercourse
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 38: Unlawful contact with minors
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 39: Corruption of minors
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 40: Endangering welfare of children
    Verdict: Guilty.

    VICTIM 9

    Count 41: Involuntary deviate sexual intercourse
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 42: Involuntary deviate sexual intercourse
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 43: Indecent assault
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 44: Unlawful contact with minors
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 45: Corruption of minors
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 46: Endangering welfare of children
    Verdict: Guilty.

    VICTIM 10

    Count 47: Involuntary deviate sexual intercourse
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 48: Involuntary deviate sexual intercourse
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 49: Indecent assault
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 50: Unlawful contact with minors
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 51: Corruption of minors
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Count 52: Endangering welfare of children
    Verdict: Guilty.
    Since Jer was found guilty, I edited the original victim status to remove the alleged.

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    Quote Originally Posted by believe09 View Post
    Clearly it isnt. Sandusky's convictions included molestations that occurred at out of town games, IIRC. I will bring the conviction post over from one of the threads.
    You're correct. He molested victim 4 at bowl games in Florida and Texas. Those, however, were Penn State events. The Second Mile was, at one point, claiming that there are no known instances of abuse at their events.

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  33. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
    You're correct. He molested victim 4 at bowl games in Florida and Texas. Those, however, were Penn State events. The Second Mile was, at one point, claiming that there are no known instances of abuse at their events.
    My bad. I misread the quote.

    There is no way, imo, that there was no cross over. I bet LE is already looking at events that were either sponsored in part by Penn State or had any type of planning by Sandusky. Lots of opportunity to groom...

    I wonder how many letters he wrote? Chances are good that most of the victims destroyed them...my heart breaks completely for them.

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    This is a follow-up post to my previous one on Sandusky, Penn State, and the Second Mile.

    Here's a quote from page 225 and 226 of his autobiography, Touched:

    The month of June came around, and I was involved with coaching in the summer camps. Those camps had become such huge part of me. I had been in charge of the on-field operations, and now I had to decide what I was going to do. I thought of all the young people who had come through those football camps -- as well as the Second Mile camps -- and how they had touched my life. I wondered what they would think of me no longer being associated with Penn State football.
    Sandusky's version does appear consistent with the Freeh report. pg 21.

    A retirement agreement with Sandusky is reached in June 1999, including a unusual lump sum of $168,000, an agreement for the university to "work collaboratively" with Sandusky on Second Mile and other community activities, and free lifetime use of the East Area Locker Room facilities.
    Sandusky needed an association with Penn State football to attract boys. It was essential.

    Here's where I think the Paterno loyalists are going with their defense of JoePa: Schultz never told Curley the sexual nature of the allegations in 98 (who knows? It could been check fraud or grand theft), and, thus, Curley never told Paterno. Had Curley and Paterno known the nature of the allegations, they would have never negotiated a retirement settlement that basically set the stage for Sandusky's future crimes.

    I'm not saying I buy it; I just see the arguments on the PSU football boards headed in that direction.

    If evidence turns up that Paterno knew specifically about the sexual nature of the allegations, they would have to find another fall back position. I'm sure they'll come up with something.

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  37. #19
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    Small OT, but we are now a Forum, and I want to get this information out there...

    Quote Originally Posted by wfgodot View Post
    Since the Sandusky case has now evolved into a feautured case discussion forum, someone might want to start a new thread on this particular aspect.
    Done.

    Forums are a bit different, peeps. For example, we will eventually do away with the General Discussion Thread altogether, and each topic will be assigned its own thread within this forum.

    Some threads you might find helpful now or in the future:

    - JS Sentencing
    - Legal Action Against Spanier
    - Legal Action Against Curley
    - Legal Action Against Schultz
    - Sanctions for Penn State Football? (potential poll thread)
    - Statue of JoePa (another good potential poll thread)
    - All Things Second Mile
    - Paterno Family Response to Freeh Report

    And more.

    To create a new thread, go to the first page of the forum and look for the "New Thread" button just underneath the Sticky where the old General Discussion forums are.

    As we add more threads, please do your best not to turn any of them back into a General Discussion thread--if a comment on the Freeh Report makes you think of something about Spanier, then post it on the Spanier thread.

    Also, when you think of a thread topic, check first to make sure it is not a duplicate of a thread that already exists perhaps with a slightly different name.

    Enjoy exploring your new space (and thanks to JBean, Kimster, Beach, SoSueMe, and everyone who helped build it for us!)...



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    I'm an old man now, but I still feel the excitement and pride generated by college football. It played a role in who I am today. No one can fully appreciate the tremendous range of emotion felt when running out of a tunnel onto a field in front of 100,000 screaming fans unless you've suited up for your school.

    Because many years ago I ran out of that tunnel on fall afternoons, it hurts me deeply to know of the heinous acts against humanity whose roots were associated with one of the greatest college football programs of all time. It hurts me to so fully understand and relate to the pain that must be felt by all Penn State alumni and fans.

    The harshest penalty ever given to a football program by the NCAA was a 2 year "death penalty" to SMU in 1987. Their '87 season was cancelled and all home games for '88. Even though the sanction allowed play at the away games on their schedule for '88, SMU elected not to play those as well.

    You know what the infraction was over? Recruiting rules violations including a slush fund that paid players amounts ranging from around $50 up to $700 per month. Pretty tame stuff stacked up next to the Penn State situation.

    Was it fair to the tens of thousands of SMU alumni and fans? Absolutely not, but as a result of the NCAA sanctions, SMU emerged as a clean strong athletic program.

    I can see no remedy for Penn State other than a "death penalty" period for their football program. A banishment of 2-5 years should ensure that all tentacles of a cancerous air of entitlement allowing a pedophile to run free in their program are removed.


    But there is nothing covered up that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known. Accordingly, whatever you have said in the dark will be heard in the light, and what you have whispered in the inner rooms will be proclaimed upon the housetops. Luke 12, 2-3


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  41. #21
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    I disagree on a 'death penalty'. And I ask those who want a 'death penalty', why? At the end of the day, what do you think will be accomplished? Do you believe that giving Penn State the death penalty or disbanding the football program will be a deterrent for sex abuse at other campus'? It won't be. Anyone who knows how the NCAA operates knows that they are very bad when it comes to getting involved with real world issues and penalties. Ask USC how bad that are doing now based on the Reggie Bush infractions. (answer: not bad at all) Not only that, but it hasn't stopped agents from infiltrating campus' (see: Ohio State and UNC).

    I disagree with that harsh of a penalty because I don't think there is any penalty you can infract on the football program or even the university that will answer for the horrible tragedy that occurred. The people directly responsible are going to jail (one already there, the others will be there soon). And one of them is already dead. Penn State will have to deal with the demons of this, as well as the damage to it's reputation, not only to the football program but the university as a whole, forever. Some might say that's a pretty damning penalty right there, more harsh then anything to NCAA could do.

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  43. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pensfan View Post
    The answer lies with Jer's establishment and position with The Second Mile. Penn State closely associated itself with TSM which at that time and place was as reputable as Special Olympics. Someone made the very flawed assumption that the goodwill toward the TSM's would reflect nicely on PSU. Therefore, Jer was given an office and he wormed his way back into the showers and nobody had the cajones or mercy (for his victims) to stop him.

    SOMEONE


    Well even though Joepa was in charge, that doesnt mean he made all the big decisions...of course, he signed off on all the big ones, and used his "president" as his finger man, when he needed to, but who knows who that someone really was? spanier would be my wild guess?
    IF I PUT IT HERE ITS MY OPINION. apparently i have no idea when i need to say that in a post, so this should cover it....IN MY OPINION anyways,

    welcome to the gates of hell JVDS.




    Jose Baez: “I sincerely believe that when we have finally spoken, everyone, and I mean everyone, will sit back and say, ‘Now, I understand. That explains it.’”



    Jose Baez to da judge :

    ".....that type of testing is unique. we requested that they be allowed to test items and that of course was objected to by the state and and uh the state uh granted or sustained their objection, denied our opportunity to have him test these items due to a very specialized field, subfield, of dna that he is one of the pioneers of uh in the alternative of we were granted the ability to test certain items by an outside lab...."

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  45. #23
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    heres what the NCAA President had to say about it last night:

    "....Reading between the lines of comments by NCAA president Mark Emmert, it appears Penn State has some serious explaining to do if it wants to avoid major sanctions for its handling of sexual abuse claims against Jerry Sandusky.
    "I've never seen anything as egregious as this in terms of just overall conduct and behavior inside a university and
    hope never to see it again," Emmert said during the interview. "What the appropriate penalties are, if there are determinations of violations, we'll have to decide."

    Emmert said the NCAA would wait to hear Penn State's response to the Freeh Report, but wouldn't equivocally take a possible death penalty to the football program off the table.

    "We'll hold in abeyance all of those decisions until we've actually decided what we want to do with the actual charges should there be any. And I don't want to take anything off the table."

    (more)


    http://content.usatoday.com/communit...y-penn-state/1
    IF I PUT IT HERE ITS MY OPINION. apparently i have no idea when i need to say that in a post, so this should cover it....IN MY OPINION anyways,

    welcome to the gates of hell JVDS.




    Jose Baez: “I sincerely believe that when we have finally spoken, everyone, and I mean everyone, will sit back and say, ‘Now, I understand. That explains it.’”



    Jose Baez to da judge :

    ".....that type of testing is unique. we requested that they be allowed to test items and that of course was objected to by the state and and uh the state uh granted or sustained their objection, denied our opportunity to have him test these items due to a very specialized field, subfield, of dna that he is one of the pioneers of uh in the alternative of we were granted the ability to test certain items by an outside lab...."

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  47. #24
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    personally i am unconvinced by those who say the transgressions were legal in nature and therefore outside the purview of the NCAA and unassociated with the football program. That is a wrong opinion, imo, and I see from what the President of the NCAA has said that he doesn't agree with the claim either.


    The fact is the NCAA can and will do anything it wants. for instance it punished USC severely when a booster bought star Regie Bush's parents a house. otoh just a year or two later, the NCAA created a new rule that allowed the father of Cam Newton to sell his sons services to various colleges, under the innovative and clearly absurd notion that the student MAY NOT HAVE KNOWN his father was selling his services. It was an absurd assertion upon which to base the witholding of sanctions against the player, yet the NCAA did it. They have the power and authority to do whatever they want. They decide. Noone else.

    I am also unmoved by the assertions that punishment should not extend to current players and penn state personnel and associated vendors, who are completlely innocent of the transgressions. The NCAA always punishes retroactively, due to many factors, among which, among others, is the turtle like nature of their investigations, and the manner in which almost all institutions attempt to lessen their punishment by self imposing their own sanctions and by summarily firing anyone associated with the rule breaking. The NCAA ALWAYS punishes the innocent. ALways. These many assertions that such a thing would be unfair are completly spurious and completly ignore the reality of the NCAA's history as to institutional sanctions. This is so well known in the sports community that anyone making the assertion is either 1. ignorant of NCAA processes and practices, or 2. engaged in argument rather than discussion. At the very least anyone advancing the argument that the NCAA should not punish the innocent Penn State players and community should acknowledge that their argument is directly invalidated by the manner in which the NCAA has conducted its institutional sanctions in the past. The examples are too many to list. Miami, USC, Alabama, OSU...the list is extensive. The NCAA hasd consistently punished institutions for their violations after the institutions have fired ALL the transgressors and got rid of all the people that were guilty of the rule breaking.

    as to the supposedly heart breaking claim that the innocent new players shouldnt be punished because they will then be added Sandusky victims. all the penn state players will have the option to wait out the one or two year shut down if they desire or they will be free to go play at another institution, and they will all be given scholarships to do so, that is certain. if they were good enought to be offered a scholarship to happy valley, other schools will line up to give them scholarships. so at the very least their football career will be interupted if they chose to wait out the shut down or they will have to go play somewhere else. imo they should have considered these possibilities before they signed to play at Penn state. for those who signed prior to the legal problems, that is a sad reality of NCAA sanctions. Current players just never know if a school they play for will be given sanctions for violations that happened before they came on campus. it is a fact of life and it is certainly no reason to withold proper sanctions.
    Last edited by costalpilot; 07-17-2012 at 01:08 PM.
    IF I PUT IT HERE ITS MY OPINION. apparently i have no idea when i need to say that in a post, so this should cover it....IN MY OPINION anyways,

    welcome to the gates of hell JVDS.




    Jose Baez: “I sincerely believe that when we have finally spoken, everyone, and I mean everyone, will sit back and say, ‘Now, I understand. That explains it.’”



    Jose Baez to da judge :

    ".....that type of testing is unique. we requested that they be allowed to test items and that of course was objected to by the state and and uh the state uh granted or sustained their objection, denied our opportunity to have him test these items due to a very specialized field, subfield, of dna that he is one of the pioneers of uh in the alternative of we were granted the ability to test certain items by an outside lab...."

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  49. #25
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    here is the definition of "institutional control", which is the statute which the NCAA can use to punish Penn state. many sports commentators SAY "institutuional control" is not an issue in this case because much of the rule breaking was officially outside the "football program" and therefore not an "institutional" problem what they are doing is narrowing the definition of "institutional" to the football department in an attempt to define the sanction so that it doesnt apply here. that is total bs....it is clear "institutional control" referes to the entire administration of the school. and its monitoring of the football program. which is clearly where penn state failred miserably. not surprisingly, the head of the NCAA made this point on Monday in his comments on the tavis smiley show. the real crux is whether or not that man, the President of the nCAA wants to punish Penn State. just now my local sports talk show host is saying the 2A shouldnt punish the ":innocent" players there now, and tony barhart, his guest, a national sports commentator blathered on about fixing the problem...anywys here is the statute. imo most sports enthusiasts do not want the 2A to hurt the penn state football program. http://compliance.pac-12.org/thetools/instctl.pdf
    IF I PUT IT HERE ITS MY OPINION. apparently i have no idea when i need to say that in a post, so this should cover it....IN MY OPINION anyways,

    welcome to the gates of hell JVDS.




    Jose Baez: “I sincerely believe that when we have finally spoken, everyone, and I mean everyone, will sit back and say, ‘Now, I understand. That explains it.’”



    Jose Baez to da judge :

    ".....that type of testing is unique. we requested that they be allowed to test items and that of course was objected to by the state and and uh the state uh granted or sustained their objection, denied our opportunity to have him test these items due to a very specialized field, subfield, of dna that he is one of the pioneers of uh in the alternative of we were granted the ability to test certain items by an outside lab...."

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