View Poll Results: Should the NCAA give Penn State the "death penalty"?

Voters
94. You may not vote on this poll
  • No. It's not fair to students, players, or coaches who had nothing to do with this scandal.

    28 29.79%
  • Yes, for one year.

    12 12.77%
  • Yes, for two years.

    10 10.64%
  • Yes, for three years.

    9 9.57%
  • Yes, for four (or more) years.

    32 34.04%
  • Not sure.

    5 5.32%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: NCAA Sanctions: "DP" for Penn Football, or...?

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    There is a full blog of them on an alumni site.

    For something substantive, look at the "opting out" of the Cleary Act. For more than two decades, they didn't even a policy on it.

    A full blog of what? Professors stating that academics took a backseat to athletics? Which site?

    I'm not sure I understand the connection between the Clery Act violations as evidence of the athletics first culture. It was a huge failure, one that I blame more than any other failure other than Sandusky himself. I do not believe this would have happened if the Clery Act had been followed. But I do not see how that is evidence of a football first culture.

  2. #302
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    When will they finally realize they're not in control anymore?

    Paterno Family Files Appeal Against NCAA

    http://onwardstate.com/2012/08/03/pa...-against-ncaa/

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  4. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
    When will they finally realize they're not in control anymore?

    Paterno Family Files Appeal Against NCAA

    http://onwardstate.com/2012/08/03/pa...-against-ncaa/

    It can't possibly be easy to lose your father, learn that he was not the man you thought he was, and then watch the community that you shared your husband/dad (and his money) with for so many decades lose respect for him. I completely cannot fathom how Sue and their children feel, and it's kind of sad that in all this mess, people cannot find some compassion for them, at least.

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  6. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by rlc View Post
    A full blog of what? Professors stating that academics took a backseat to athletics? Which site?
    Go to the Linkedin site and join the alumni site; the link is there.

    I'm not sure I understand the connection between the Clery Act violations as evidence of the athletics first culture. It was a huge failure, one that I blame more than any other failure other than Sandusky himself. I do not believe this would have happened if the Clery Act had been followed. But I do not see how that is evidence of a football first culture.
    It is of the "Penn State Way."


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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  8. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
    When will they finally realize they're not in control anymore?

    Paterno Family Files Appeal Against NCAA

    http://onwardstate.com/2012/08/03/pa...-against-ncaa/
    It should be properly ignored due to lack of standing.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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  10. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    Go to the Linkedin site and join the alumni site; the link is there.



    It is of the "Penn State Way."
    Thanks, I will check out the linked in site. If I can remember my password there.

    Wait, so you are saying the Penn State way is just to fail. It's not just putting football first, it includes caring about football, but also includes not caring about anything else? I'm not sure how you can tie these together without saying the Penn State way is something excessively broad and excessively horrible.

    Edited to rephrase: I do not see how you can turn the Clery Act failures into evidence of the football first culture they are describing, unless the culture you are describing is something where not only is football first, but nothing else matters at all. And I think that is absolutely unfair to the thousands of students, faculty, staff, and administrators who work hard and go above and beyond on a regular basis.

  11. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by rlc View Post
    It can't possibly be easy to lose your father, learn that he was not the man you thought he was, and then watch the community that you shared your husband/dad (and his money) with for so many decades lose respect for him. I completely cannot fathom how Sue and their children feel, and it's kind of sad that in all this mess, people cannot find some compassion for them, at least.
    My compassion ends where right begins. Neither the family, nor Joe Paterno were being punished by the NCAA. Neither the family, nor Joe Paterno are members on the NCAA.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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  13. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    My compassion ends where right begins. Neither the family, nor Joe Paterno were being punished by the NCAA. Neither the family, nor Joe Paterno are members on the NCAA.
    I'm not saying they should be able to sue. But I have compassion for a lot of people, even when they are wrong, and it's possible to say they do not have standing, or discuss the fact that they do not have standing, without using intentionally critical language.

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  15. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by rlc View Post
    Thanks, I will check out the linked in site. If I can remember my password there.

    Wait, so you are saying the Penn State way is just to fail. It's not just putting football first, it includes caring about football, but also includes not caring about anything else? I'm not sure how you can tie these together without saying the Penn State way is something excessively broad and excessively horrible.

    Edited to rephrase: I do not see how you can turn the Clery Act failures into evidence of the football first culture they are describing, unless the culture you are describing is something where not only is football first, but nothing else matters at all. And I think that is absolutely unfair to the thousands of students, faculty, staff, and administrators who work hard and go above and beyond on a regular basis.
    Note that I am NOT saying it was "football first" environment. I am saying that it was the cloistered environment, which extended into sports.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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  17. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    Ah, I'm not sure that it the motive for why the 2001 incident happened was not reported.

    I've only found two even close reference, one on p. 129 to the "Penn State Way" and on p. 38 about the department being "'an island.'" I think that one of the criticisms is that Penn State is insular, but that wasn't limited to football of the athletic department, though they noted an "overemphasis on athletics (p. 129)." It is not Penn State football, it is Penn State.

    I referred to it as: A secular priesthood of administrators allegedly hiding the monster in the cloister of the university. A pervasive evil allegedly reaching out into the community under the guise of great institutions for learning and charity.

    I've called that Central Pennsylvania Gothic.
    There's a great book to be written on this scandal, IMO, if the author expands beyond football into the cultural composition of Penn State and central PA.

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  19. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    Note that I am NOT saying it was "football first" environment. I am saying that it was the cloistered environment, which extended into sports.

    I was talking about there being a lack of evidence of a football first culture, pervasive throughout the school and community, and you said that the Clery Act violations were substantive evidence of that culture.

    I do not disagree with the cloistered environment. I think there is some extreme shadiness and borderline incestuous relationships going on up there within a relatively small but powerful group. I was not saying there is no substantive evidence of that.

    I still do not see how the failure to implement the Clery Act is evidence of the cloistered environment. Unless, of course, the Clery Act mandates were received after knowledge of Sandusky's crimes were made known among the higher level administrators, and the higher level administrators were responsible for not implementing the Clery Act. But frequently, that would not have been somebody at that level. The legal counsel would have likely gone to a director of some HR type department.

  20. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by rlc View Post
    I was talking about there being a lack of evidence of a football first culture, pervasive throughout the school and community, and you said that the Clery Act violations were substantive evidence of that culture.
    I was referring, as I did in the quote, to Penn State as a whole. I have gone out out of my may to say that this is not a Penn State Football problem, but a Penn State problem. I have also noted that the Freeh report doesn't indicate that this is a "football problem."


    I still do not see how the failure to implement the Clery Act is evidence of the cloistered environment. Unless, of course, the Clery Act mandates were received after knowledge of Sandusky's crimes were made known among the higher level administrators, and the higher level administrators were responsible for not implementing the Clery Act. But frequently, that would not have been somebody at that level. The legal counsel would have likely gone to a director of some HR type department.
    Good heavens, failing to publicly report incidents, as required by law, is not an example of a cloistered environment? Come on!


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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  22. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by rlc View Post
    It can't possibly be easy to lose your father, learn that he was not the man you thought he was, and then watch the community that you shared your husband/dad (and his money) with for so many decades lose respect for him. I completely cannot fathom how Sue and their children feel, and it's kind of sad that in all this mess, people cannot find some compassion for them, at least.
    It would be easier for me to feel some compassion for them if they would accept reality and shut their pieholes.

    ETA And I have seen no evidence whatsoever that they've acknowledged JP wasn't the man they thought he was.
    "I have lived many years and, after many trials and tribulations, I have come to the conclusion that the best thing is blonde, 12-year-old girls. Two of them, whenever possible."
    --Woody Allen, Love and Death, 1975

    "Mr. Allen's resort to the typical 'scorned woman' defense is an injudicious attempt to to divert attention from his failure to act as a responsible parent and adult."

    --Judge Elliott Wilk, June 7, 1993

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  24. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    I was referring, as I did in the quote, to Penn State as a whole. I have gone out out of my may to say that this is not a Penn State Football problem, but a Penn State problem. I have also noted that the Freeh report doesn't indicate that this is a "football problem."




    Good heavens, failing to publicly report incidents, as required by law, is not an example of a cloistered environment? Come on!
    Okay, but you made all these points in response to my statements that there is no substantive evidence of the football first environment. The Freeh report did indicate it was a football problem. In the early pages, the pages that so many people read and accepted without reading it in its entirety, it said that the cover-up was done to protect a football program. The NCAA used that finding to justify the sanctions with widespread ramifications. That the fans and students and alumni created this environment.

    Part of my problem here is that when I was a student, "Penn State" meant the students, alumni, faculty. The administration was like this little group of corporate America drones who were trying to interfere, trying to control things to maximize revenue or increase standings or impress people on their resume, even if it meant breaking away from the traditions and the best Penn State had to offer. There was always animosity between the Penn State community and the bureaucrats hired to run the place. I'm pretty sure two out of my four years at University Park, there were petitions to oust GS. Unfortunately, they were never taken seriously because he always claimed he was not popular among students because he was trying to make it a dry campus. Granted, that made him no friends on campus, but it was not the only strike against him. When this scandal broke, almost everyone I talked to from Penn State was 110% positive that GS covered this up, and JVP did not even know about it. Because that fit with what we knew. Now knowing that JVP acted in concert with the administrators means he went to the dark side, the other team, the group he had previously fought on behalf of the student body who did not like or trust the administration.

    When you are saying there was a cloistered environment within the administration, I completely agree. We have substantial evidence of that, and it fits well with what we already knew.

    When someone says that there is a "Penn State way" or "Penn State culture" that condoned or encouraged this, I can not agree. The students, alumni, and faculty, as well as front-line staff (those interacting with the students on a regular basis) had a very different attitude, and they always have been the "Penn State" we talk about.

    As for the Clery Act, I apologize for misunderstanding. I was not thinking of the failure to report because that's a failure with or without the Clery Act. I was thinking of the failure to follow the mandates set forth in the Clery Act for the training and education of the faculty and staff, and establishing of procedures for reporting abuse.

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  26. #315
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    Sympathy for the Paternos? Gah, have they ever once showed true sympathy for the victims? All I have ever noticed is them trying to claim that they are the real victims here, not the children. Sympathy for them? You must be joking.
    "Nobody's ever completely given peace a chance before, Ghandi tried it, Martin Luther King tried it, and they were shot...". - John Lennon

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  28. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by rlc View Post
    Okay, but you made all these points in response to my statements that there is no substantive evidence of the football first environment. The Freeh report did indicate it was a football problem. In the early pages, the pages that so many people read and accepted without reading it in its entirety, it said that the cover-up was done to protect a football program. The NCAA used that finding to justify the sanctions with widespread ramifications. That the fans and students and alumni created this environment.
    Seriously, could you provide a page citation. I went through it with a search, and the only person I found referring to that was one of the janitors, stating that Paterno was powerful.


    When someone says that there is a "Penn State way" or "Penn State culture" that condoned or encouraged this, I can not agree. The students, alumni, and faculty, as well as front-line staff (those interacting with the students on a regular basis) had a very different attitude, and they always have been the "Penn State" we talk about.
    Respectfully snipped, because I agree somewhat. I cannot agree with the conclusion, which I included. We (and I do mean "we") meaning we didn't run the place on a daily basis. The administrators did. They did things "The Penn State Way." We were just passing through.

    As alumni, what really do we do? Maybe contribute, wear Penn State gear (I am wearing my class ring right now), maybe go to games, and if were are even semi active, vote in alumni elections, or are active in our local chapter of the Alumni Association. We don't run the place.

    As students, wear Penn State gear, go to games, maybe we were in student government or organizations. We didn't run the place either.

    The faculty? Well, maybe they ran the students, and yes, some of them had some administrative responsibilities, but not as great as the administrators.

    Maybe we are Penn State, but we sure as heck didn't run Penn State.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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  30. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    Seriously, could you provide a page citation. I went through it with a search, and the only person I found referring to that was one of the janitors, stating that Paterno was powerful.



    Respectfully snipped, because I agree somewhat. I cannot agree with the conclusion, which I included. We (and I do mean "we") meaning we didn't run the place on a daily basis. The administrators did. They did things "The Penn State Way." We were just passing through.

    As alumni, what really do we do? Maybe contribute, wear Penn State gear (I am wearing my class ring right now), maybe go to games, and if were are even semi active, vote in alumni elections, or are active in our local chapter of the Alumni Association. We don't run the place.

    As students, wear Penn State gear, go to games, maybe we were in student government or organizations. We didn't run the place either.

    The faculty? Well, maybe they ran the students, and yes, some of them had some administrative responsibilities, but not as great as the administrators.

    Maybe we are Penn State, but we sure as heck didn't run Penn State.
    I cannot open the freeh report right now. As soon as I can, I will. It is possible it was in press conference statement, and if so, I apologize for my mistake, I may have read it in the press conference statement and then remembered it as being in the report, but it was accompanied by the blatant disregard language.

    We did not run the university, but my fellow students and faculty had far more influence on the values I took from the place. Administration did nothing for me. They provided no guidance, rarely acted in a way that even hinted they cared about the students. But my fellow students did. They mentored without being asked. They ran student organizations with self-imposed rules that forced freshmen members to learn to prioritize academics and fit everything else around that. They encouraged philanthropy. And when we needed an adult to step in, it was the faculty and the coaches who did so.

    Granted, the students were heavily influenced by JVP, but the values they took from him were values we now know he did not show after 1998. I see that as he did not practice what he preached, so it should have no bearing on those who were influenced by him if the influence, in and of itself, is positive. Others see that as we allowed ourselves to be led and influenced by a morally corrupt human being, therefore, we must all be morally corrupt. Or that we created a morally corrupt atmosphere, which made him act in such a manner.

    Right now, what is being questioned is only partially the decisions made. The rest is the moral character of not only the individuals involved, but anyone who identifies with "Penn State", so the values are more relevant, IMO, to the fairness and accuracy of those judgments.

    I'm sorry for rambling and not articulating this well. I have a dog that needs to go out and a kid overdue for bedtime screaming in my ear.

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  32. #318
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    I am still getting a file error message when I try to open the Freeh report, but I saw one article quote the Freeh report as putting one of the problems as "a culture of reverence for a football program".

    Of course, that article reminded me of another question.

    Why are we giving all of the janitorial staff a free pass on their failures?

  33. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by rlc View Post
    I am still getting a file error message when I try to open the Freeh report, but I saw one article quote the Freeh report as putting one of the problems as "a culture of reverence for a football program".

    Of course, that article reminded me of another question.

    Why are we giving all of the janitorial staff a free pass on their failures?

    Because, in the hierarchy of things, they were the lowest; the PSP Commissioner, Noonan, actually singled them out in his initial press conference.

    it states "bad publicity" but not for the football program as a cause, but not the only one.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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  35. #320
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    On death's door

    Inside the negotiations that brought Penn State football to the brink of extinction


    http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/...ink-extinction

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  37. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reader View Post
    On death's door

    Inside the negotiations that brought Penn State football to the brink of extinction


    http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/...ink-extinction
    Thanks for the great article, Reader. This is part that I feel bad about.....

    ē Penalties would harm many people who were not responsible: current players, the new coaching staff and, in lost dollars, central Pennsylvania residents.

    So many innocent and good people will be hurt by the non actions of a few men.

    moo

    wm
    ...and be sure your sin will find you out.

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  39. #322
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    One member of the BoT is planning to challenge the NCAA ruling.

    http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/ind..._river_default

    I'd assume he's going to try to get the BoT to do it.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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  41. #323
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    Penn State Scandal: Paterno Family Appeal Creates Truly Mixed, Uneasy Feeling

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...uneasy-feeling

    ...........As we discussed here at Your Best 11 previously, the Board of Trustees had an opportunity to bring Erickson and the NCAA to task, except they elected to take the path of least resistance. It made sense; the school didn't need the firestorm that would come with vetoing Erickson and challenging the NCAA.

    In that same vein, the Paterno family appeal makes some compelling statements: (follow)

    Except it is not, because that compelling argument is linked to rhetoric like this:

    To severely punish a University and its community and to condemn a great educator, philanthropist and coach without any public review or hearing is unfair on its face and a violation of NCAA guidelines.
    Sure, they say "University" and "community," but ultimately, this is about the "condemnation" of the great Joe Paterno.........

    So, while there are good points in the appeal, they do, and should, fall on deaf ears. This is another bad play for the Paterno family; their search to "find the truth" is a poor veil for the goal of securing a legacy.


    More at link....

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  43. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    One member of the BoT is planning to challenge the NCAA ruling.

    http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/ind..._river_default

    I'd assume he's going to try to get the BoT to do it.
    Trustee Ryan Combie is a member of the same group as Trustee Anthony P. Lubrano, Penn Staters for Responsible Stewardship, who support all things Paterno:

    http://www.ps4rs.org/we-support.html

    http://www.ps4rs.org/who-we-are.html

    How The Group Was Formed

    The group was formed the week after the Board of Trustees made the decision to terminate Joe Paterno's position, the media had a field day with Joe's legacy and the University's reputation was tarnished.

    At that moment in time the Alumni, Students, Friends and supporters experienced many different feelings - anger, frustration, sadness and heartache. What happened to Joe Paterno was wrong on so many levels. Joe was the foundation of the University we know today as Penn State, he spent a lifetime giving back to the University.
    One of their main goals was to get 3 members elected to the BOT and they did get Lubrano and Combie elected out of the ones promoted, not sure about others...

    http://www.ps4rs.org/docs/press-release_2-1-12.pdf

    These 'top 6' candidates included Combie but he was not one of the final 3
    put forth by the group:

    http://www.ps4rs.org/candidates.html

    They also are raising questions about the Freeh findings and the NCAA penalties:

    http://www.ps4rs.org/media.html

    Press Releases
    July 31, 2012
    PS4RS Demand Contracts and Details of Freeh Hiring be Made Public
    July 26, 2012
    PS4RS Gives Freeh Report a Solid "F" Using Objective Objective 95-Point Checklist
    July 26, 2012
    PS4RS Completed Freeh Report Checklist
    July 23, 2012
    PS4RS Statement on NCAA Sanctions

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  45. #325
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    I also came across this interesting article about Mr. Lubrano:

    A polarizing figure emerges in normally quiet vote for Penn State board

    http://articles.philly.com/2012-04-2...es-joe-paterno

    ......Board members have uncharacteristically spoken out about what they view as questionable behavior by a front-runner for election to the board - Anthony P. Lubrano, a wealthy businessman and school donor from Glenmoore, Chester County. His name is already on the school's 5,400-seat baseball park after he pledged $2.5 million to build it........

    He has argued especially loudly that Paterno was unfairly treated by the board, and he demanded that it resign.........

    But Lubrano, some trustees and university employees say, is the one who deserves the criticism.

    They say he has been discourteous to female employees in the athletic department, belligerent toward investigators hired by Penn State to unravel the sex-abuse scandal, and deliberately rude to board members...........

    The night before Paterno was buried in January, Lubrano approached a team of investigators from a firm run by former FBI Director Louis J. Freeh.

    The encounter at a restaurant at the Nittany Lion Inn apparently was so disturbing to one of the lead investigators that he wrote an e-mail to the board of trustees outlining his concerns.

    Lubrano, the investigator wrote, used foul language, appeared to be "inebriated," and "confronted them in a belligerent manner," according to the e-mail obtained by The Inquirer........

    Three sources in the athletic department complained of Lubrano's treatment of women, including one incident in which he is alleged to have called a secretary a "dumb b**ch" after she asked him to spell his name.

    "To say that I'm afraid of him is accurate," the source said.............

    Behavior of this sort is alleged in papers filed in his 2011 divorce in Chester County. The lawyer for his wife, Sara Jane, described Lubrano's behavior as "increasingly threatening" in an Aug. 31 letter to Lubrano's lawyer that is part of the divorce file.............

    Board chair Karen Peetz received a phone call from Lubrano that upset some trustees who heard the message, according to a university source.

    "I have an upcoming press conference," Lubrano said, according to an e-mailed transcript of the message. "I prefer not to say bad things about her, but if she does not return my call this weekend, she'll be forcing my hand."

    "This is very unfortunate," said Keith W. Eckel, a longtime trustee and Lackawanna County farmer. "It's very sad that Mr. Lubrano has resorted to threatening tactics to achieve some goal. . . . There is no room for this type of alleged activity in leadership in any organization and at any level."


    More at link....

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