View Poll Results: Should the NCAA give Penn State the "death penalty"?

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  • No. It's not fair to students, players, or coaches who had nothing to do with this scandal.

    28 29.79%
  • Yes, for one year.

    12 12.77%
  • Yes, for two years.

    10 10.64%
  • Yes, for three years.

    9 9.57%
  • Yes, for four (or more) years.

    32 34.04%
  • Not sure.

    5 5.32%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: NCAA Sanctions: "DP" for Penn Football, or...?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ynotdivein View Post
    What would expulsion from the Big Ten mean in terms of real impact on student-players and the university?
    It would probably cut into their television revenue. It will hurt, but it won't kill.

    They might have a problem scheduling with "name" teams.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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  3. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    First of all, I am not a football fan.

    Second, I think there are a number of factors:

    1. Because the 1998 incident was properly reported, and there is currently no evidence of improper influence from PSU, I don't think that incident should come into play. I will change my opinion if evidence surfaces to the contrary.

    2. In 2001, this was university scandal, not a football scandal. The decisions, while involving the football coach and a GA, did not involve the playing of football or the recruiting of players. The offender was not part of the program.

    3. The principals are no longer involved in the administration of the school.

    4. The was a lack of institutional control, but that extended to mismanagement and criminality well beyond the football program. Some it, however, did impact the program.

    This is deserving of a penalty, but what is the proper penalty?

    A. The death penalty, along with all other NCAA penalties, is not meant to enforce criminal law, nor is meant to correct maladministration outside of the sports realm. The penalties should be inflicted only to cover the sports aspect.

    B. The death penalty will have adverse effects on:

    i. Current players.

    ii. The economy of the Centre County region.

    iii. The University, by removing a source of funding.

    Based on that, I have to reluctantly that the death penalty is inappropriate.

    A penalty is appropriate, and I would look at something like this:

    I. No bowl games for four years.

    II. No off campus recruiting for four years.

    III. Reduction in the number of football scholarships for four years.

    IV. Expulsion from the Big Ten, with possible readmission after four years. No affiliation with any other conference during that period.

    V. Five year probation, of course.
    The problem with expulsion from the Big 10 is that it would mean expulsion for ALL Penn State sports teams. That's a big deal. I know Penn State has won national championships in recent years in both wrestling and women's volleyball, so the sports program, as a whole, benefits greatly from membership in the conference.

    The death penalty would be football specific, and I think it's only fair to localize the punishment, as much as possible, to the football program. I could see your other four suggested penalties as a substitute for the death penalty. They might even be more severe than the DP in the long run.

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  5. #53
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    I suddenly had a flashback to the U.S.'s decision to boycott the 1980 Olympics.

    And all those kids who had trained so hard for years having their hopes and dreams dashed.

    The PSU situation is not neatly analogous with that, but my point is that history is rife with examples of innocents being punished for the actions of a few.

    It is nothing new and no reason not to mete out deserved punishment for the institution that enabled that few.

    As a college football fan, when I conjure the mental image of a Penn State home game being televised this fall, and the camera panning across the spectators as it always does, and them cheering and signaling #1 with their index fingers as fans always do in that situation, even if they are from East Cheese Fries State that has a 1-8 record, I just want to vomit.

    I truly believe nothing could be more sickening, and more disrespectful to the victims, than allowing that kind of football business-as-usual to take place in just a few short weeks from now.

    Death penalty? I'm not sure. But I do believe that PSU needs to, on its own, take at least a year off from football for reflection and reform.

    For those who say that this will unfairly punish local businesses whose livelihoods rely in large part on the football economy, I reply that PSU should set up a claims fund from its billion dollar or so endowment to compensate those not at fault yet apt to suffer from the institution's actions or in this case non-action.

    Compensate all the victims of the cover-up, not solely JS's direct victims, although they of course should stand first in line.
    No comment.

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  7. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
    The problem with expulsion from the Big 10 is that it would mean expulsion for ALL Penn State sports teams. That's a big deal. I know Penn State has won national championships in recent years in both wrestling and women's volleyball, so the sports program, as a whole, benefits greatly from membership in the conference.
    Two points:

    1. I said that this not a football problem, so I'm not adverse to punishing the university as a whole. Football subsidized these programs for decades.

    2. Would it be possible, if desired, to just suspend the football team from participating in the Big Ten?

    The death penalty would be football specific, and I think it's only fair to localize the punishment, as much as possible, to the football program. I could see your other four suggested penalties as a substitute for the death penalty. They might even be more severe than the DP in the long run.
    As I said, this is not a football scandal but a Penn State scandal. Basically, a fitting punishment is for football fanatics, alumni, and residents to look at Spanier, Garban, those "country club" Trustees, Paterno, Curley, Schultz, and Sandusky and think, "You did this to us."


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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  9. #55
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    It has been demonstrated the M.O. to cover up Sandusky has been used in other cases by PSU. Look at the Michael Mann and Antonio Lasaga incidents for example both outside sports. If just football gets punished, the whole act can be moved over to wrestling, basketball and/or hockey and do nothing to change the environment which led to this.
    Also I feel "you did this to us" would allow many to disassociate themselves to what happened and deflect blame from the university as a whole. The healing may be better served by attitudes other than us against them.

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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twindad View Post
    It has been demonstrated the M.O. to cover up Sandusky has been used in other cases by PSU. Look at the Michael Mann and Antonio Lasaga incidents for example both outside sports. If just football gets punished, the whole act can be moved over to wrestling, basketball and/or hockey and do nothing to change the environment which led to this.
    Also I feel "you did this to us" would allow many to disassociate themselves to what happened and deflect blame from the university as a whole. The healing may be better served by attitudes other than us against them.
    Well, I do think the bulk of Penn State and the community were not involved.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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  13. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    Two points:

    1. I said that this not a football problem, so I'm not adverse to punishing the university as a whole. Football subsidized these programs for decades.

    2. Would it be possible, if desired, to just suspend the football team from participating in the Big Ten?

    As I said, this is not a football scandal but a Penn State scandal. Basically, a fitting punishment is for football fanatics, alumni, and residents to look at Spanier, Garban, those "country club" Trustees, Paterno, Curley, Schultz, and Sandusky and think, "You did this to us."
    1. Never again can the athletic director at Penn State be the "errand boy" to the football coach (that description of Curley is from a senior administrator at PSU quoted in the Freeh report). One way to do that is punish the entire university, as you suggest.

    2. Won't happen. Notre Dame has wanted to join the Big 10 for years in every sport except football. ND does not want to share the television revenue it receives from NBC for the rights to televise the school's home games. The Big 10 demanded full membership from ND, so ND joined the Big East conference for every sports except football. Big East, however, was recently relegated to minor status as a conference (Boise State recently joined the conference. Yes, Boise State is in the Big East!)

    The Atlantic Coast Conference could be a possible alternative, down the road, for Penn State, if they are expelled from the Big 10. It would be a drop in status for the football program, but the ACC is strong in other sports. Also, academically, it would be good fit for Penn State, joining with universities like U of Va, U of NC, Syracuse, etc.

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  15. #58
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    No. It's not fair to students, players, or coaches who had nothing to do with this

    Well, ya know, sometimes life isn't fair. Consider it a lesson learned during college days, students and players. As for coaches - meh. We saw something of the college game's inner workings during this sad fiasco. Don't count on any sympathy from me for college coaches.

    Death penalty. Three years minimum, five max.

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  17. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    Well, I do think the bulk of Penn State and the community were not involved.
    That is true of any school that the NCAA sanctions.
    No comment.

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  19. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by IzzyBlanche View Post
    That is true of any school that the NCAA sanctions.
    Not necessarily. Some have shown widespread problems.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

  20. #61
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    78.57% for some form of program death penalty at the moment.

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  22. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    Not necessarily. Some have shown widespread problems.
    Really? Which ones? I don't mean to sound sarcastic; I am curious as to what you mean.

    Thinking through recent NCAA sanctions--in football as that's the only college sport I follow much--I come up with:

    Ohio State
    USC
    Oklahoma
    Miami maybe? I haven't paid much attention to that.

    I can't recall widespread problems (which I am defining as university-wide, not just athletic-department wide) in these instances, or within the surrounding community.
    No comment.

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  24. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by IzzyBlanche View Post
    Really? Which ones? I don't mean to sound sarcastic; I am curious as to what you mean.
    SMU, obviously. It actually dealt with payoffs. In terms of what the administrators and board did, it was much more blatant that the current Penn State situation. Penn State's crime was inaction, failure to report. SMU's crime, with the participation of the president and board, actually involved a slush fund.

    I can't recall widespread problems (which I am defining as university-wide, not just athletic-department wide) in these instances, or within the surrounding community.
    The NCAA should not be involved in college wide problems, beyond sports. Where they intersect with sports, and to the extent that they do, it should punish.

    As opposed to kicking Penn State out of the Big Ten, can they prohibit live television or prevent the school from getting any revenue from it?


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

  25. #64
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    NCAA president Mark Emmert has decided to punish Penn State with severe penalties likely to include a significant loss of scholarships and loss of multiple bowls, a source close to the decision told ESPN's Joe Schad on Sunday morning.

    But Penn State will not receive the so-called "death penalty" that would have suspended the program for at least one year, the source said.

    The penalties, however, are considered to be so harsh that the death penalty may have been preferable, the source said.

    The NCAA will announce "corrective and punitive measures" for Penn State on Monday morning, it said in a statement Sunday. Emmert will reveal the sanctions at 9 a.m. ET in Indianapolis at the organization's headquarters along with Ed Ray, the chairman of the NCAA's executive committee and Oregon State's president, the news release said.

    (snip)

    http://espn.go.com/college-football/...nctions-monday
    Last edited by daisy7; 07-22-2012 at 12:30 PM. Reason: snipped for copyright and added link

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  27. #65
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    If sanctions are happening this soon, then they were probably agreed upon by the university. The PSU administration probably believes the upcoming criminal trials will do nothing to exonerate the previous adminstration.


    JMO

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  29. #66
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    I'm hearing no death penalty and I hope I'm wrong.

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  31. #67
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    I'm pretty much football naive, so forgive me for a stupid question. Can the NCAA throw PSU out of the "big 10" and if so, what would that mean to the team, exactly?
    "Nobody's ever completely given peace a chance before, Ghandi tried it, Martin Luther King tried it, and they were shot...". - John Lennon

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  33. #68
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    http://www.cbssports.com/collegefoot...state-football

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/22/us/pen...html?hpt=hp_t1

    I got these links from scout.com message board. Lot's of rumors there re the possible sanctions.

    wm
    ...and be sure your sin will find you out.

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  35. #69
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    As someone who witnessed the NCAA "death penalty" first hand (my alma mater Southern Methodist--1987) I can tell you that it is TOO HIGH a price to pay.

    Once ranked nationally, SMU has NEVER recovered. I believe it contributed to the demise of the Southwest Conference, too.

    No school should have NCAA death penalty, esp. for non-football violations.

    Just my 0.02c!

  36. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by SherlockKittyCat View Post
    As someone who witnessed the NCAA "death penalty" first hand (my alma mater Southern Methodist--1987) I can tell you that it is TOO HIGH a price to pay.

    Once ranked nationally, SMU has NEVER recovered. I believe it contributed to the demise of the Southwest Conference, too.

    No school should have NCAA death penalty, esp. for non-football violations.

    Just my 0.02c!
    What price do you feel is not "too high" for enabling child rape?

    And how is this a non-football violation when it was done to shield the football program from bad publicity?
    No comment.

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  38. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by IzzyBlanche View Post
    What price do you feel is not "too high" for enabling child rape?

    And how is this a non-football violation when it was done to shield the football program from bad publicity?
    I think it was to shield the University from bad publicity. 2001 only tangentially involved the football program. Had this been reported to DPW, football program would only provided witnesses to an act, with no coverup.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

  39. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    I think it was to shield the University from bad publicity. 2001 only tangentially involved the football program. Had this been reported to DPW, football program would only provided witnesses to an act, with no coverup.
    Protecting the football program -- and Joe Paterno's legacy -- were central to the coverup. Schultz and Spanier were ok with notifying DPW. It was the athletic director, aka "Paterno's errand boy," who talked them into changing the plan after discussing it over with the head football coach.

    JMO

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  41. #73
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    This could be moot tomorrow morning when/if NCAA sanctions Penn State.


    July 22, 2012 at 1:32 pm

    Writers pick Michigan to win Big Ten championship over Wisconsin
    By Matt Charboneau
    The Detroit News

    From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz21NT6WrXC

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  43. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by waltzingmatilda View Post
    (CNN) -- Penn State University will face "significant, unprecedented penalties" from the National Collegiate Athletic Association, but it will not face the so-called "death penalty" that would have prevented the football team from playing in the fall, a source familiar with the case tells CNN.
    ---.
    "If I were Penn State or any other school and were given both options, I'd pick the death penalty," the source said, adding the range of sanctions "is well beyond what has been done in the past" and "far worse than closing the program for a year."
    ---
    .....

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  45. #75
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    Source: Severe penalties set for Penn State

    Paterno statue removed from outside football stadium


    Author: By Ross Levitt and Susan Candiotti CNN

    Published On: Jul 22 2012 08:04:09 AM EDT Updated On: Jul 22 2012 02:45:15 PM EDT

    Craig Houtz / Reuters
    (CNN) -
    Penn State University will face "significant, unprecedented penalties" from the National Collegiate Athletic Association, but it will not face the so-called "death penalty" that would have prevented the football team from playing in the fall, a source familiar with the case tells CNN.

    But the source says the school might have preferred a one-year suspension because of the severity of the scholarship losses, postseason sanctions and other penalties the source wouldn't specify.

    "If I were Penn State or any other school and were given both options, I'd pick the death penalty," the source said, adding the range of sanctions "is well beyond what has been done in the past" and "far worse than closing the program for a year."...

    http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/S...z/-/index.html

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