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Thread: IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, and Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #5

  1. #126
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    If in the presser it was 'Can you comment on Misty Morrissey's cell phone in a car being pulled over yesterday' - could that mean a phone belonging to Misty that was maybe used by Lyric was found in a car that was pulled over and that is their new evidence?

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    Lindsey Baum, Elizabeth Olten, Shantina Smiley/Azriel Carver, Susan Powell, Rachel Anderson, Kyron Horman, Isabel Celis, Sierra Newbold, Lyric Cook & Elizabeth Collins, Christopher Marks, Reena Williams - NEVER FORGOTTEN

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  3. #127
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    What are the chances that the girls parked their bikes unlocked while in the store and when they came back, the bikes had been taken ?

    I can imagine one perp staying behind and telling the girls `Oh, some guy took your bikes and I think they were headed that way`. Once the girls arrive near where the bikes were found, they are accosted by perp 2 who somehow redirects them into a waiting vehicle.

    There are different codes of conduct amongst inmates, especially when it comes to inquiring about family and friends. If someone wants to share info, that is one thing but if the info is not offered, pressing the matter can get you shut down pretty swiftly. I would be very interested to know how free Lyric`s parents were when sharing personal details with fellow inmates. Y`know, names of children, where they lived, what activities they participated in and so forth.

    Has there been any mention of Lyric visiting either parent during their respective incarcerations ? Were the visits contact or no-contact ? Did Lyric attend any social events or receive supports specific to the needs to children who have parents in federal custody ? A previous posted mentioned the possibility that the perp could have been someone who had the appearance of being in authority and/or someone familiar to at least one of the children. What about a social worker, parole/probation supervisor, or prison guard ? A social worker or parole supervisor would have some degree of familiarity with Lyric`s routines and family relationships. All jmho, of course.

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  5. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetpea33 View Post
    I think Confusion is saying that perhaps they went out to ride their bikes at 11:30 but grandma last saw them at 12:15.
    Yes sorry me too, just wanted to provide a link.
    Evil don't look like anything...

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  7. #129
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    I'm trying to catch up, not sure if this has been mentioned. Is it possible they were making a "delivery" for someone. A family member or friend of the parents? They could have been approached while out riding and agreed to an errand that put them in a bad spot?

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  9. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrainneDhu View Post
    Ask her what she'd do if her sister (or best friend) was being held and threatened by a stranger displaying a weapon.

    I'd cut directly west on Hwy 20 and pick up I-35 somewhere north of Ames. Since this is construction season in Iowa, there's no guarantee that any given stretch of an interstate is actually faster than a 2 lane highway.

    I get what you mean, though.

    I think the place where their bicycles were found really suggests someone with local knowledge but that doesn't preclude a predator who moved away three years ago from coming back to their old stomping ground to do a little hunting.

    The statistics suggest that the girls are somewhere within a 25 mile radius, if I recall them correctly.

    But the possibility that they may have been taken out of Iowa is why I'm glad the girls are drawing media attention from all over the world.
    I talked with my daughter and she said she'd run for help screaming. Until she is old enough in my eyes, though, she will not be alone with just a friend. An adult must be in eye/ear shot. At least while we are in this country. My daughter is quite tall and while she does not weigh much, has beginning curves. Mama bear is not comfy with her being out of sight.

    My concern was with their being at least the remote possibility IMO of a drug connection. Someone with a knowledge of the area and perhaps linked to the drug issues. It just seems (feels) like more than a random pedo abduction. I do not feel the family harmed the girls directly, but two recent incidents in my own locale had innocents targeted to get back at someone who supposedly shorted them money for drugs. One involved a 13 year old girl who was abducted and taken to Mexico. The other involved the friend of the person who shorted their dealer having his family shot at. The dog was the only casualty, sadly but thankfully not the three toddlers who were in the yard and saw their dog killed. In both incidents no one was arrested yet.

    Myself and a family member tried to help the LE in one Tx city find an abducted girl and though we showed them valid reasons via computer analysis of available data, why the girl HAD to be where we said, they insisted we had no idea. When someone finally phoned a tip in to look where we told them, they found the cabin and inside the girl, alive but molested.
    Sometimes what seems obvious is not the answer...sometimes it is.
    Oh how I wish someone would come forward to say they saw something. In daylight someone had to see something...even if it was a passenger in a car on the highway near the lake...even a quick glimpse of something that seemed off. Perhaps someone has given info and the LE are looking into it. If not, it seems IMO likely that the girls knew who took them well enough to go with them without a fuss.
    I am an optimist so I will continue hoping the girls will be returned.

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  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by threecrazykids View Post
    That is exactly what I told her! I explained how once in a car, chances go down of survival etc. I think it really scared her though because she sees the posters up in town, has watched all the local newscasts, and knows exactly where this place is they were taken from. When I turned the story into her and one of her best friends it upset her.

    I told her that no matter HOW hard it is...she would have to leave her friend and run. That would be her best chance of helping her friend remain alive.
    Another thing I think is really important to explain to children is that being impolite is ok if they feel uncomfortable. My children are nice kids and I beat it into their heads to be polite all the time. So I had to convince them that it's ok to ignore an adult's demands and RUN if their body or mind tells them to. (This goes for strangers AND people they know but don't necessarily trust.) If it ends up being a "false alarm" we can always explain ourselves and work it out later. Good people will understand and be proud of a kid for a smart reaction, even if it's seemingly "offensive" at the time.

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  13. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truman View Post
    Another thing I think is really important to explain to children is that being impolite is ok if they feel uncomfortable. My children are nice kids and I beat it into their heads to be polite all the time. So I had to convince them that it's ok to ignore an adult's demands and RUN if their body or mind tells them to. (This goes for strangers AND people they know but don't necessarily trust.) If it ends up being a "false alarm" we can always explain ourselves and work it out later. Good people will understand and be proud of a kid for a smart reaction, even if it's seemingly "offensive" at the time.
    O/T a little, but goes with your I read some magazine (parenting or something along those lines) which stated in an article that when your child is little and they don't want to hug/kiss/talk to a family member....don't make them. They are just following their intuition and that's a good thing. Makes you go hmmmm. Not that the people they are avoiding are bad, but might sense a bad mood, uneasiness, etc. I found it interesting.

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  15. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truman View Post
    Another thing I think is really important to explain to children is that being impolite is ok if they feel uncomfortable. My children are nice kids and I beat it into their heads to be polite all the time. So I had to convince them that it's ok to ignore an adult's demands and RUN if their body or mind tells them to. (This goes for strangers AND people they know but don't necessarily trust.) If it ends up being a "false alarm" we can always explain ourselves and work it out later. Good people will understand and be proud of a kid for a smart reaction, even if it's seemingly "offensive" at the time.
    I asked my son (age 7) about what he would do if someone asked him to help find his dog, or offered him a toy in their car, etc - and he said he would say "uh, no thanks. Excuse me, but I need to go inside now". I laughed at the polite but correct answer.

    I also showed him the two recent videos of failed kidnappings to show how fighting and kicking and screaming gets a kidnapper to give up.
    -Beth In Alaska

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  17. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by StacyMarie83 View Post
    O/T a little, but goes with your I read some magazine (parenting or something along those lines) which stated in an article that when your child is little and they don't want to hug/kiss/talk to a family member....don't make them. They are just following their intuition and that's a good thing. Makes you go hmmmm. Not that the people they are avoiding are bad, but might sense a bad mood, uneasiness, etc. I found it interesting.
    Interesting thought.

    I'm not sure I believe it is intuition but even if it isn't, having a history of being allowed to refuse contact will help the child follow their intuition when/if they start to have it.

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  19. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrainneDhu View Post
    Interesting thought.

    I'm not sure I believe it is intuition but even if it isn't, having a history of being allowed to refuse contact will help the child follow their intuition when/if they start to have it.
    It helps later in life too-many women are raped because they don't want to appear rude, even though they feel very uncomfortable with someone.
    Evil don't look like anything...

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  21. #136
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    My four year old daughter is very outgoing and friendly and at times it worries me. In the little neighborhood near her Kita she is recognized all the time by people I have never met - usually they are tied to her school or classmates in some way. She asked me the other day if she could take the bus by herself to school. Yeah, right.

    I asked her this morning, not sure what the response would be, what she would do if someone said they had a puppy and wanted to take her to see it. She said she would scream and run away. I told her, 'do whatever it takes, kick, scream, bite, punch, spit.' She said, 'yeah, I would spit but then I would ask him to make sure he doesn't tell my mom that I spit.'

    Sorry, had to lighten this up a bit. This is such a sad case and I hope there is closure soon. I'm not sure about the parents connection or not but I know that meth can make people do crazy crazy things.
    It's only my opinion. But sometimes the truth hurts.

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  23. #137
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    Long time lurker,the Madeleine McCann case brought me here and ive silently set back to chicken to post.I have wondered is it a possibility that the girls were offered a ride from a family friend or even just a local who offered to give them and the bikes a ride to the lake and when they arrived maybe he told them to let him get the bikes out,then drove off with the girls?The timing makes me think they possibly took a ride,and it wouldn't be a surprise if he /she offered them a soda or ice cream.


  24. #138
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    I've thought all along it has to be someone they knew...just my gut. I hope it means there's more of a chance they are still ok.


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  26. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by demetra View Post
    Long time lurker,the Madeleine McCann case brought me here and ive silently set back to chicken to post.I have wondered is it a possibility that the girls were offered a ride from a family friend or even just a local who offered to give them and the bikes a ride to the lake and when they arrived maybe he told them to let him get the bikes out,then drove off with the girls?The timing makes me think they possibly took a ride,and it wouldn't be a surprise if he /she offered them a soda or ice cream.
    That makes a lot of sense and is very plausible. " Oh you girls must be hot and the lake is quite a ways away. How about I give you a ride ?" He might have just tossed the bikes from the back of the van. Someone else may have come along, seen the bikes, and took them for a little spin before dumping them where they were eventually found.

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  28. #140
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    I can't find a link, but some news magazine did a piece where they staged an abduction- a tween boy was being put into a van while yelling out "You're not my daddy", and the producers recorded the whole thing with hidden cameras. It took several times before any passerbys attempted to help. Maybe things are a bit different in Iowa, but there's still the possibility someone saw something and doesn't want to come forward because they'd be blamed for inaction.

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  30. #141
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    So, after 7+ days and 5 threads this appears to be a true stranger abduction? Not good for these young ones not good at all. Lots of time wasted. moo

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  32. #142
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    Mdcastle this is my first time ever trying this only my second post so forgive me if i mess this up but is this what your talking about.
    http://youtu.be/KIvGIwLcIuw

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  34. #143
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    This is such a strange case - it's like they disappeared into thin air! What I can imagine, if there is in fact their scents going into the woods, is that the girls saw a squirrel or rabbit or dog or something that compelled them to jump off their bikes and go check it out. Something that happened to be there or someone who had something that caught their attention. I'm not even sure the perp or perps were out looking for someone to kidnap, but the whole thing fell into place and they seized the opportunity. The bikes lying down makes me think they saw something and ran off to check it out. My daughter does that with her bike - just drops it and off she goes to look at flowers or sees a friend or whatever.

    Anyone passing by could have moved the kids bikes so they were out of the way. I'm not sure I wouldn't have done the same.
    It's only my opinion. But sometimes the truth hurts.

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  36. #144
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    Some quick thoughts from a local...these are my interpretations of all I have read, heard, and seen...I apologize I don't have links to everything, but maybe some can confirm/refute what I think I remember.

    The timeline:
    11:30am - Grandma OK's a bike ride
    12:15pm - Grandma sees girls across the street, behind Lederman's
    12:15pm - Video footage of girls leaving the area
    12:20pm - Approximately...cyclist swerves to miss two kids' bikes laying on the trail
    12:27pm - Cyclist phones daughter with his cell phone from nearby gas station (IMO, could have covered that distance in under 5 mins)
    2:00 pm - Grandma, mother, brother begin driving and searching
    2:45 pm - Witness at Meyers Lake parking area tells of seeing girls on trail nearby
    2:45 pm - Girls reported missing to police - park is 2 blocks from police station
    3:00 pm - LE "swarms" the lake area
    4:00 pm - Approximate...firefighter (they are mostly volunteers in E'dale) discovers bikes
    After 4:00pm - Cyclist learns girls are missing (I think he sees a search group), reports his earlier sighting of the bikes, confirms time of phone call
    I'm guessing, since LE was operating at that time as if the girls had gone in the lake, that the bikes were moved by the firefighter or other LE, and when Abben arrived they'd been propped against the fence. Just a guess, but based on what we've heard (cyclist says bikes were laying on trail, Abben says bikes propped "when he arrived.")


    It seems, if we can count on that video being the girls, and the cyclists time being correct, then the window of opportunity for the perp is very small. Given that, and what I personally have witnessed of the area, here is a possible scenario:

    Perp is in lake area, has backed a vehicle thru the brush into the woods near where the trail is secluded. His vehicle can be parked in those woods and not seen from the road or the trail (and I know I saw tire tracks leading in there, reported to police, photographed, etc). He's out of his vehicle, walking up and down that portion of trail. The girls enter the "trap," and he somehow - by luring or by force - gets them off the bikes and into his waiting vehicle, and pulls out onto Arbutus Ave, drives away, leaving the bikes on the trail. Perhaps the purse was dropped in the woods, around the fence, when he was putting the girls in the vehicle. Minutes later, the cyclist happens past the bikes. If perp's local, he can be at home or wherever before the grandmother notices the girls are missing. The river, and many remote locations, are mere minutes away. If he's not local, he could have gotten to Hwy 20 within 3-5 mins, and be traveling west, north, or south (Hwy 218 intersects Hwy 20 within a mile of him getting on) at 60mph for 2+ hours before police are notified. This would give him time to reach I-35, or even to loop back and go east, almost to the Mississippi River.

    All speculation on my part, fwiw. Obviously I am biased having seen tracks in the woods. If those tracks were not made by LE (which I doubt, as they repeatedly gained access to the trail/lake w/o having to plow thru woods with a vehicle, and doing so would/could be dangerous, considering the girls may have been in that underbrush), they are incredibly suspicious. I have not heard any LE and/or press mention them, ONLY ME, so again, this is pure speculation. A perp could also simply have had his vehicle backed into the woods there partway, so as to shield only the rear of his vehicle in the woods, or he could have had his vehicle waiting as far as Arbutus, and somehow gotten the girls that far (altho that is close to a block - maybe 100 yds - from where the bikes were found).

    This all depends on the girls making it from where/when the camera recorded them, to the lake, in that time. I will definitely double-check that distance tomorrow, but IMO, they'd have to be racing to make it, from Brovan, to Sipple, to Morrell and over to the trail, or just to Evans, and then south to the lake. I'd bet I could do it, tbh. Two young girls on kids bikes, tho?


  37. #145
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    Hello ya'll who have been closely following this case. I follow another case but this one caught my attention also. I've spent some time reading here and there on the various threads and have a general idea of what has been reported thus far. By no means an I as knowledgeable as most of you are. I have a question. It was reported in an earlier thread, and I have no idea which one, that one of the girls had a cell phone that wasn't active but that games could be played on it. My question is would the phone still be able to take pictures?

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  39. #146
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    One thing is certain: when that police tape comes down (when I arrived at work 12 hours ago I heard it would be), you will all see pics of that trail section, and those woods, if not by press, then by me. I will also be double-checking those tire tracks. I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds here, or being over-zealous about seeing some evidence that I think may have been overlooked. But I can see that damn lake out my window. My kids sleep a 3-wood shot away. My 4-yr old son has asked me 7 days in a row now if I've found Elizabeth. I know I can't return to "business as usual" until these thoughts/questions are put to rest. If LE tells me that they had a vehicle in there, I will let it go. But the girl on the other end of the tipline did not indicate that they had.


  40. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollipop View Post
    One thing is certain: when that police tape comes down (when I arrived at work 12 hours ago I heard it would be), you will all see pics of that trail section, and those woods, if not by press, then by me. I will also be double-checking those tire tracks. I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds here, or being over-zealous about seeing some evidence that I think may have been overlooked. But I can see that damn lake out my window. My kids sleep a 3-wood shot away. My 4-yr old son has asked me 7 days in a row now if I've found Elizabeth. I know I can't return to "business as usual" until these thoughts/questions are put to rest. If LE tells me that they had a vehicle in there, I will let it go. But the girl on the other end of the tipline did not indicate that they had.
    Yes, please don't give up until you have confirmation from LE that they know about those tire tracks. This could be important, and I'd rather be over-zealous now than remorseful later.

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  42. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollipop View Post
    Some quick thoughts from a local...these are my interpretations of all I have read, heard, and seen...I apologize I don't have links to everything, but maybe some can confirm/refute what I think I remember.

    The timeline:
    11:30am - Grandma OK's a bike ride
    12:15pm - Grandma sees girls across the street, behind Lederman's
    12:15pm - Video footage of girls leaving the area
    12:20pm - Approximately...cyclist swerves to miss two kids' bikes laying on the trail
    12:27pm - Cyclist phones daughter with his cell phone from nearby gas station (IMO, could have covered that distance in under 5 mins)
    2:00 pm - Grandma, mother, brother begin driving and searching
    2:45 pm - Witness at Meyers Lake parking area tells of seeing girls on trail nearby
    2:45 pm - Girls reported missing to police - park is 2 blocks from police station
    3:00 pm - LE "swarms" the lake area
    4:00 pm - Approximate...firefighter (they are mostly volunteers in E'dale) discovers bikes
    After 4:00pm - Cyclist learns girls are missing (I think he sees a search group), reports his earlier sighting of the bikes, confirms time of phone call
    I'm guessing, since LE was operating at that time as if the girls had gone in the lake, that the bikes were moved by the firefighter or other LE, and when Abben arrived they'd been propped against the fence. Just a guess, but based on what we've heard (cyclist says bikes were laying on trail, Abben says bikes propped "when he arrived.")


    It seems, if we can count on that video being the girls, and the cyclists time being correct, then the window of opportunity for the perp is very small. Given that, and what I personally have witnessed of the area, here is a possible scenario:

    Perp is in lake area, has backed a vehicle thru the brush into the woods near where the trail is secluded. His vehicle can be parked in those woods and not seen from the road or the trail (and I know I saw tire tracks leading in there, reported to police, photographed, etc). He's out of his vehicle, walking up and down that portion of trail. The girls enter the "trap," and he somehow - by luring or by force - gets them off the bikes and into his waiting vehicle, and pulls out onto Arbutus Ave, drives away, leaving the bikes on the trail. Perhaps the purse was dropped in the woods, around the fence, when he was putting the girls in the vehicle. Minutes later, the cyclist happens past the bikes. If perp's local, he can be at home or wherever before the grandmother notices the girls are missing. The river, and many remote locations, are mere minutes away. If he's not local, he could have gotten to Hwy 20 within 3-5 mins, and be traveling west, north, or south (Hwy 218 intersects Hwy 20 within a mile of him getting on) at 60mph for 2+ hours before police are notified. This would give him time to reach I-35, or even to loop back and go east, almost to the Mississippi River.

    All speculation on my part, fwiw. Obviously I am biased having seen tracks in the woods. If those tracks were not made by LE (which I doubt, as they repeatedly gained access to the trail/lake w/o having to plow thru woods with a vehicle, and doing so would/could be dangerous, considering the girls may have been in that underbrush), they are incredibly suspicious. I have not heard any LE and/or press mention them, ONLY ME, so again, this is pure speculation. A perp could also simply have had his vehicle backed into the woods there partway, so as to shield only the rear of his vehicle in the woods, or he could have had his vehicle waiting as far as Arbutus, and somehow gotten the girls that far (altho that is close to a block - maybe 100 yds - from where the bikes were found).

    This all depends on the girls making it from where/when the camera recorded them, to the lake, in that time. I will definitely double-check that distance tomorrow, but IMO, they'd have to be racing to make it, from Brovan, to Sipple, to Morrell and over to the trail, or just to Evans, and then south to the lake. I'd bet I could do it, tbh. Two young girls on kids bikes, tho?
    Just re-posting for anyone who hasnít seen this:

    In this interview and article Mr. C who lives on Lake Ave. (near Gilbert Drive) reports seeing Elizabeth and Lyric bicycle by his house between 12-3pm the day they disappeared.

    http://www.desmoinesregister.com/art...sey=nav%7Chead

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  44. #149
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    Another cold case in the works, imo. Darn shame. I won`t point fingers at anyone but something needs to change. I thought for sure LE was steps ahead but it turns out the perp is. 7 days ahead! The girls could be anywhere.

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  46. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollipop View Post
    Some quick thoughts from a local...these are my interpretations of all I have read, heard, and seen...I apologize I don't have links to everything, but maybe some can confirm/refute what I think I remember.

    The timeline:
    11:30am - Grandma OK's a bike ride
    12:15pm - Grandma sees girls across the street, behind Lederman's
    12:15pm - Video footage of girls leaving the area
    12:20pm - Approximately...cyclist swerves to miss two kids' bikes laying on the trail
    12:27pm - Cyclist phones daughter with his cell phone from nearby gas station (IMO, could have covered that distance in under 5 mins)
    2:00 pm - Grandma, mother, brother begin driving and searching
    2:45 pm - Witness at Meyers Lake parking area tells of seeing girls on trail nearby
    2:45 pm - Girls reported missing to police - park is 2 blocks from police station
    3:00 pm - LE "swarms" the lake area
    4:00 pm - Approximate...firefighter (they are mostly volunteers in E'dale) discovers bikes
    After 4:00pm - Cyclist learns girls are missing (I think he sees a search group), reports his earlier sighting of the bikes, confirms time of phone call
    I'm guessing, since LE was operating at that time as if the girls had gone in the lake, that the bikes were moved by the firefighter or other LE, and when Abben arrived they'd been propped against the fence. Just a guess, but based on what we've heard (cyclist says bikes were laying on trail, Abben says bikes propped "when he arrived.")


    It seems, if we can count on that video being the girls, and the cyclists time being correct, then the window of opportunity for the perp is very small. Given that, and what I personally have witnessed of the area, here is a possible scenario:

    Perp is in lake area, has backed a vehicle thru the brush into the woods near where the trail is secluded. His vehicle can be parked in those woods and not seen from the road or the trail (and I know I saw tire tracks leading in there, reported to police, photographed, etc). He's out of his vehicle, walking up and down that portion of trail. The girls enter the "trap," and he somehow - by luring or by force - gets them off the bikes and into his waiting vehicle, and pulls out onto Arbutus Ave, drives away, leaving the bikes on the trail. Perhaps the purse was dropped in the woods, around the fence, when he was putting the girls in the vehicle. Minutes later, the cyclist happens past the bikes. If perp's local, he can be at home or wherever before the grandmother notices the girls are missing. The river, and many remote locations, are mere minutes away. If he's not local, he could have gotten to Hwy 20 within 3-5 mins, and be traveling west, north, or south (Hwy 218 intersects Hwy 20 within a mile of him getting on) at 60mph for 2+ hours before police are notified. This would give him time to reach I-35, or even to loop back and go east, almost to the Mississippi River.

    All speculation on my part, fwiw. Obviously I am biased having seen tracks in the woods. If those tracks were not made by LE (which I doubt, as they repeatedly gained access to the trail/lake w/o having to plow thru woods with a vehicle, and doing so would/could be dangerous, considering the girls may have been in that underbrush), they are incredibly suspicious. I have not heard any LE and/or press mention them, ONLY ME, so again, this is pure speculation. A perp could also simply have had his vehicle backed into the woods there partway, so as to shield only the rear of his vehicle in the woods, or he could have had his vehicle waiting as far as Arbutus, and somehow gotten the girls that far (altho that is close to a block - maybe 100 yds - from where the bikes were found).

    This all depends on the girls making it from where/when the camera recorded them, to the lake, in that time. I will definitely double-check that distance tomorrow, but IMO, they'd have to be racing to make it, from Brovan, to Sipple, to Morrell and over to the trail, or just to Evans, and then south to the lake. I'd bet I could do it, tbh. Two young girls on kids bikes, tho?
    I`m not sure I understand your comment that the opportunity was small. Looking at your timeline, it appears from 12:27 to 2:00 pm (when the family starts searching). That`s a heck of a long time for the perp to snatch 2 little girls and take off, imo.

    If I misunderstood, I apologize and hope you can clarify.

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