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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by believe09 View Post
    I dont know about Baptist, but I know about Congregationalist. The people, for lack of a better characterization, are the boss.

    But. And there is a big but here-what exactly was Weatherford trying to save here? Did he figure he would perform it at another church and address it later? Did he hope that public outcry would do the job for him?

    I dont know. I am disappointed because if nothing else, Jesus threw down for those who were voiceless. Fortunately, for those who are believers, he also came to represent everyone who chose to believe in him. But the poor and the downtrodden and the voiceless were his first congregants. At least that is how I recall it. For a church and the leader of that church to choose to draw a line in the sand about something like this, and for that leader to think it was OK to carve out a "middle road" which essentially favored the bigots...I dont know. I just dont know.

    This is NOT a "What would Jesus do" moment.
    Do you mean "NOT" a WWJD? moment? Because it seems precisely such a moment to me and I have no doubt what Jesus would do. I don't remember Jesus EVER taking a poll so that the majority could rule on an issue of right and wrong.

    In my post on congregationalism, I did not mean to defend the pastor. I only meant to acknowledge that his duty to do what is right may have clashed with his duty to follow his congregation in his mind.

    Still not good enough, in my view, but I'm trying to think of all the angles here. It isn't like a Catholic priest who is no doubt also subject to some communal pressures, but has the authority of the Vatican on his side.


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  3. #17
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    "I didn't want to have a controversy within the church, and*I didn't want a controversy to affect the wedding of Charles and Te' Andrea. I wanted to make sure their wedding day was a special day,"*said Weatherford.
    Blech.
    He can't have seriously thought that banning a minority wedding wouldn't cause controversy within the church or affect C and T's special day so he should just have done the right thing.


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  5. #18
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    In any congregation your going to find a minority of folks who seem to have missed the plot when it comes to the virtues of Christianity but who are long on Judegment and wrongheadedness...but its up to the Pastor whether he wants to pander to that segment and let them shape the Church's mission.
    Unfortunately over the last three or four years Ive seen an alarming amount of folks in the Church who seem a little confused or unable to discern between Far Right Ideaolgy (including racial intolerance) and the Gospel.
    Christians seem to be targeted frequently by those who wish to utilize the that voting block by a number of means.
    Ive recieved many,many unsolicited e-mails from those types of people just because I suppose im on a few Church email lists.
    Some of this stuff ranges from nutty conspiracy alarmists to the downright disturbed.
    Sadly I know some folks who pass this junk on to others ( "Have you heard....?")


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  7. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacie Estes View Post
    I wish I could say that bigotry doesn't exist in the year 2012, but it does.
    Yes it does. Racism, sexism, ageism, classism, religiocentrism, homophobia still exist.

    Too often we hear the preface of statements with---well I'm not a racist~ BUT "fill in the blank" or I'm not a sexist~ But "fill in the blank", or I'm not a homophobe~ But..."fill in the blank". It's not a crime to hold those opinons within our hearts, everyone is entitled to their own private opinions about anything but to act on those opinions in a way that it infringes on the rights of others or compromises their pursuit of happiness then it becomes a crime against humanity. JMHO.

    It's all the same. Bigotry is bigotry is bigotry. Bigotry is simply: an intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.

    I'm sure this pastor would deny any bigotry but isn't it funny that we can't see our own blind spots? That we hold opinions that are bigoted and are able to find a way to justify and rationalize them? For example: it's always been this way, this is the way I was taught, my religion says this is wrong...

    I know I am guilty of this at times and when I learn better I do better (angelou). This pastor needs a hard lesson in acceptance. But then again, don't we all? JMHO


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  9. #20
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    Do you mean "NOT" a WWJD? moment?
    To clarify my convoluted post, Nova-what I meant was I would expect that the pastor would have applied a "What would Jesus do" response to the situation.

    I dont see that he did. I wasnt there, of course, but I dont see that he led his parishioners to their duty to this couple and society in general.
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  11. #21
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    My personal favorites are "but some of my best friends are..." fill in the blank.

    I get that discussions of race, sexual orientation etc can be loaded. But I wish they didnt have to be. I dont think we should have to prove tolerance of one another-I think we should just be tolerant of one another.

    In any case, I have a higher standard for clergy because they signed on to lead their flock.
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  13. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by believe09 View Post
    To clarify my convoluted post, Nova-what I meant was I would expect that the pastor would have applied a "What would Jesus do" response to the situation.

    I dont see that he did. I wasnt there, of course, but I dont see that he led his parishioners to their duty to this couple and society in general.
    That's what I thought you meant, believe. And I emphatically agree!


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  15. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kat View Post
    Yes it does. Racism, sexism, ageism, classism, religiocentrism, homophobia still exist.

    Too often we hear the preface of statements with---well I'm not a racist~ BUT "fill in the blank" or I'm not a sexist~ But "fill in the blank", or I'm not a homophobe~ But..."fill in the blank". It's not a crime to hold those opinons within our hearts, everyone is entitled to their own private opinions about anything but to act on those opinions in a way that it infringes on the rights of others or compromises their pursuit of happiness then it becomes a crime against humanity. JMHO.

    It's all the same. Bigotry is bigotry is bigotry. Bigotry is simply: an intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.

    I'm sure this pastor would deny any bigotry but isn't it funny that we can't see our own blind spots? That we hold opinions that are bigoted and are able to find a way to justify and rationalize them? For example: it's always been this way, this is the way I was taught, my religion says this is wrong...

    I know I am guilty of this at times and when I learn better I do better (angelou). This pastor needs a hard lesson in acceptance. But then again, don't we all? JMHO
    Kat's remarks are worth repeating for their own sake. But they also lead me to wonder about those who complain so bitterly about so-called "political correctness".

    Would it really be such a bad thing if racists kept their thoughts to themselves?


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  17. #24
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    I think bigotry is lazy,

    I grew up hearing the nickname for every race/ethnicity on earth-- it wasn't until I was 11 or so that I realized they were derogatory and hateful. Now, what do I do with a head full of words that need to be trashed? I'll tell you what I did-- every time one of those monikers announced itself in my mind, I refused it utterance; every time, after I'd conquered saying them, I chastised myself for the thought even occurring to me; years later, when those terms had long been silenced and left alone, what becomes "fashionable"? The N-word. ...and the door to locked chambers of language are opened every time I hear it, or anything like it. THIS is the harm in using/feeling/stating/sharing/living with the terms of hate that have influence far beyond the offender's original intent.

    This pastor's weakness emboldens the wrong, pollutes the righteous, and he is the responsible party. (I'm sure the feedback he's getting will explain all the ways and why.)

    Seriously, if an individual can't adjust their attitude toward others, then at least adhere to some agreed upon social manners (call it PC if you like, to me it's just common courtesy): bigotry and hate are like a verbal fart, it's rude, does NOT go unnoticed, and alters the atmosphere similarly.


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  19. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donjeta View Post
    Blech.
    He can't have seriously thought that banning a minority wedding wouldn't cause controversy within the church or affect C and T's special day so he should just have done the right thing.
    Have y'all looked at the church website? http://www.roc.fbccrystalsprings.org/rocphotos.html I'm not at all surprised by the attitude of the congregation...disappointed but not surprised. jmo
    I believe this Pastor made the decision he made because the men with the "money", those who actually pay his salary; said "not NO but "*$&& NO!"


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  21. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by momtective View Post
    Have y'all looked at the church website? http://www.roc.fbccrystalsprings.org/rocphotos.html I'm not at all surprised by the attitude of the congregation...disappointed but not surprised. jmo
    I believe this Pastor made the decision he made because the men with the "money", those who actually pay his salary; said "not NO but "*$&& NO!"
    It wasn't the whole congregation. Many weren't even aware this was happening until after the fact. See link and quote^^. It was a vocal few who need to examine their hearts and minds. I hope the scrutiny causes some reflection.

    The groom seems gracious. I do think the pastor meant well, just didn't do well.

    Wilson told the newspaper that he understands Weatherford was caught in a difficult position and he still likes the pastor, but he also thinks the pastor should have stood up to the members who didn't want the couple to marry in the church.
    "It's not reflective of the spirit of the Lord and Mississippi Baptists," the Mississippi Baptist Convention executive director, the Rev. Jim Futral, said. "It's just a step backward. ... It's a sad thing."
    link

    Thankfully, it looks like other parishioners, the mayor, townsfolk, Baptist leaders and others are speaking out.

    The vast majority of Crystal Springs residents, blacks and whites alike, were "blown away" by the church's decision, said Theresa Norwood, 48, who was born in Crystal Springs and has lived there her entire life.
    While the Wilsons were not members of the church, they often attended services there, and Te'Andrea's uncle is an employee of the church, and her father is a member. Charles Wilson told WAPT that the couple had planned to join as members after their wedding, which was planned for July 20.
    link


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  23. #27
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    Insiders say five or six members went to the Rev. Stan Weatherford after seeing the couple's wedding rehearsal the Thursday night before their Saturday wedding.
    "If you're for Christ, you can't straddle the fence," Wilson said of Weatherford. "He knew it was wrong."
    link

    Crystal Springs Mayor Sally Garland said she is heartbroken about the church's decision and its potential ramifications on the community.

    "I would hate for a few people to be a reflection of our whole town because it's not that way," she said. "We pride ourselves on unity. We don't want to be known for that."

    Garland said although she's not sure who all had a hand in Weatherford's decision, townspeople and other First Baptist members say it's definitely a small minority.

    "Maybe it's a wake-up call for people to say we're not standing for this," she said. "This is not OK. For us to be as successful of a place as I want it to be, we have to do it together."
    more here, including community event


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  25. #28
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    Since I am sometimes critical of Christians and their beliefs, I want to reiterate how surprised I am by this whole event. I don't for a moment think it represents "most" Christians, not even most Christians in Mississippi. (And as Seek points out, it may not even represent a majority of Weatherford's own congregation.)

    I do think something weird has happened since the election of the current president. It's as if a racist minority has been emboldened by any and all criticism of this President and now feels free to express all sorts of racist bigotry. This is by no means the fault of those who exercise their constitutional right to criticize the President, nor am I saying that all such criticism is racially motivated.

    But I am hearing and reading racist assertions that I have not heard since I was a kid in the segregated South.


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  27. #29
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    Crystal Springs residents: racial intolerance does not represent town

    "When I first heard the story, I just thought it wasn't God," Wolfe said. "If you think there is one God, it doesn't matter what color you are."
    "We're all God's children. There's no color," she said. "This is not the people's temple. They are in God's house. This is God's temple."
    "This is not a reflection of our city," Garland said, referencing a passage from John 17: 'I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one - I in them and you in me - so that they may be brought to complete unity.'
    Link


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  29. #30
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    I don't see it as politically related at all. The five or six church members were concerned with skin color, not political affiliation.

    I think it's good so many of us are shocked, and I think those subjected to racism are more likely to cry foul and stand up for themselves, due to how far we've come. So what was the norm, is thankfully now so out of the ordinary, it's news.

    We humans have a tendency to group and stereotype, to varying degrees. That won't end but we can certainly diminish it by looking at ourselves.

    Racism & serving Jesus don't fit together well. This small group was very wrong, and I'm glad so many are saying so. All have sinned. Hoping this bitter few can let go of their hardheartedness and learn & grow. If not, they need to face church discipline.

    Moo
    Last edited by Seek&Find; 07-28-2012 at 09:25 PM.


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