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Thread: Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #37

  1. #726
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    Quote Originally Posted by wakeskate View Post
    One would assume if his story was that she went out for a walk, he would have at least driven a lap of her normal walking path.
    Again we don't know for sure.

    However making an assumption of something (police noticing cars warm) on another assumption (that he hadn't been out in them) is getting pretty out there.

    Next thing people will be telling us theories based on dreams they have had
    Thanks Wakeskate, I have never heard that he attempted to drive around and look for her, although that is what a normal person would do if you ask me!

    Can I ask, what do you mean when you say, 'making assumptions about what might have happened is getting pretty out there?' I think that is what we all do on here, toss around ideas and theories, based on what little info we are given, we have to do it this way, as we have no other avenue to investigate

    As for the theories, IMO all theories are based on very little.. they are just proposed explanations that are only conjectural and subject to experimentation. We can only speculate here. Talking about peoples dreams is not allowed, so not sure what thats about!

    Im not sure what alerted the QPS so quickly that morning, but I heard a few stories, and one of them was that he specifically brought up his scratches, before being asked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wakeskate View Post
    I am pretty sure that interfering with the corpse is going to simply come down to the fact that the body was moved from it's place of death.
    I am pretty sure that the charge will be only related to moving the body from the brookfield house, to the creek. MOO. I have not seen any evidence to imply that she was interfered with in any way. The removal of hands is only rumour, as is the chain story. So, most likely, the interference only relates to moving her

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  5. #728
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    Quote Originally Posted by minni View Post
    Thanks Wakeskate, I have never heard that he attempted to drive around and look for her, although that is what a normal person would do if you ask me!

    Can I ask, what do you mean when you say, 'making assumptions about what might have happened is getting pretty out there?' I think that is what we all do on here, toss around ideas and theories, based on what little info we are given, we have to do it this way, as we have no other avenue to investigate

    As for the theories, IMO all theories are based on very little.. they are just proposed explanations that are only conjectural and subject to experimentation. We can only speculate here. Talking about peoples dreams is not allowed, so not sure what thats about!

    Im not sure what alerted the QPS so quickly that morning, but I heard a few stories, and one of them was that he specifically brought up his scratches, before being asked.
    Yes, making assumptions is what we're about on here. I think when the cars being warm/cold came up it was actually pretty good sleuthing, as we were trying to figure out what could possibly have alerted police to foul play that morning. To be honest, this makes a lot of sense. Not out there at all. It was also mentioned that if the cars had been out til a couple of hours before police turned up, then the grass under would have had more dew than you'd expect if he had been home all night. It was all very interesting stuff. To be honest, it is the kind of thing police notice.

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  7. #729
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    Quote Originally Posted by wakeskate View Post
    However making an assumption of something (police noticing cars warm) on another assumption (that he hadn't been out in them) is getting pretty out there.
    :
    I don't understand your thinking on this one - seeing if the bonnet is warm makes perfect sense to me and is the first time anyone on here has suggested it. <modsnip>
    Last edited by Mani; 08-18-2012 at 07:48 AM.

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  9. #730
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    Quote Originally Posted by linette View Post
    Yes, making assumptions is what we're about on here. I think when the cars being warm/cold came up it was actually pretty good sleuthing, as we were trying to figure out what could possibly have alerted police to foul play that morning. To be honest, this makes a lot of sense. Not out there at all. It was also mentioned that if the cars had been out til a couple of hours before police turned up, then the grass under would have had more dew than you'd expect if he had been home all night. It was all very interesting stuff. To be honest, it is the kind of thing police notice.
    thanks Linni, I agree with you, I thought it was a smart and clever thought to have...and to NOT have it, wouldnt get you a gold star at police school!!!
    I was told at my first tutorial at uni..."no question is too stupid" and in that first year, you always feel like you are asking stupid questions.

    Do you know how many cases are solved on a hair, a tomato skin, a carpet fibre? a hot bonnet? or a cold one? I love it when someone asks a small seemingly inconsequential question, cos these are the ones that solve MURDERS....moo moo moo moo

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  11. #731
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    Quote Originally Posted by linette View Post
    Yes, making assumptions is what we're about on here. I think when the cars being warm/cold came up it was actually pretty good sleuthing, as we were trying to figure out what could possibly have alerted police to foul play that morning. To be honest, this makes a lot of sense. Not out there at all. It was also mentioned that if the cars had been out til a couple of hours before police turned up, then the grass under would have had more dew than you'd expect if he had been home all night. It was all very interesting stuff. To be honest, it is the kind of thing police notice.
    Well it would give the police an idea if he had been out that morning - in fact the warmth from a car bonnet is a sure giveaway. MOO

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    Quote Originally Posted by minni View Post
    thanks Linni, I agree with you, I thought it was a smart and clever thought to have...and to NOT have it, wouldnt get you a gold star at police school!!!
    I was told at my first tutorial at uni..."no question is too stupid" and in that first year, you always feel like you are asking stupid questions.

    Do you know how many cases are solved on a hair, a tomato skin, a carpet fibre? a hot bonnet? or a cold one? I love it when someone asks a small seemingly inconsequential question, cos these are the ones that solve MURDERS....moo moo moo moo
    Yep, and sometimes the most insignificant thing can be what ties it all together in the end. And I think police would also have to make assumptions or they'd never get anywhere. If they were to rely solely on what GBC told them then he would still be a free man today.
    Assumptions can be proven right or wrong, but still good to have them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mani View Post
    Well it would give the police an idea if he had been out that morning - in fact the warmth from a car bonnet is a sure giveaway. MOO
    That reminds me, a few years ago my son did a burnout a few streets away on his way home. A few minutes later the police turned up at our house, the very first thing they did was to feel his bonnet... incase he said he hadn't been out most likely. I saw them do it before they even knocked on our door. {Luckilly my son changed his tune after that episode, scared the life out of him.}

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  17. #734
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    Wakeskate your photos were so appreciated and timely. We all bring different things to the table and thank you for your contribution. Hope your holiday is a good wind down for you.
    Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal.
    ― Albert Camus

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  19. #735
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    I would like to give a big Shout Out and thank you to Indromum for standing today on the left hand side of the Kholo and filling all the gaps with flowers to balance out the right hand side.
    That side of the bridge is treacherous as cars are flying past and there is nowhere to stand on the other side of the armco once the terrain starts to go down the slope. IMO
    Thanks to the locals for slowing down too.

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  21. #736
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuskier View Post
    Wakeskate it was refreshing to have your contribution. I understand where you're comin from. Agree also.
    Yes I would like more facts and it is frustrating when they are thin on the ground. MOO

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  23. #737
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    Quote Originally Posted by linette View Post
    Yes, making assumptions is what we're about on here. I think when the cars being warm/cold came up it was actually pretty good sleuthing, as we were trying to figure out what could possibly have alerted police to foul play that morning. To be honest, this makes a lot of sense. Not out there at all. It was also mentioned that if the cars had been out til a couple of hours before police turned up, then the grass under would have had more dew than you'd expect if he had been home all night. It was all very interesting stuff. To be honest, it is the kind of thing police notice.
    Both the cars were parked on bitumen. (unless they were moved)
    This doesn't mean the windows wouldn't have due in them or the bonnets etc.
    One car covered in it and the other not could have alerted them.

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  25. #738
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rational View Post
    Doc that still doesn't answer the question. Minni asked what are the differences, post, peri ante mortem re injuries. Surely this would loosely tie into any circulation of blood around the body and if sustained injuries happened whilst the heart was still pumping etc. in other words close to your area of expertise. Would like to see your thoughts.
    Given that we don't know the facts of what was found, then we CAN'T answer the question. Anything any of us says is pure conjecture.

    As to the pathological changes that occur pre and post mortem, I'm sure you don't really want me to go into a long dissertation on the microscopic changes that occur, from the influx of macrophages into injured tissues (pre-mortem), or the very early signs of intra-tissue haemostasis that can occur (pre-mortem). And of course, the lack of those things that would indicate post-mortem injury. It's not all about circulation although pre-mortem injuries that transect blood vessels (even very small ones called arterioles) can result in retraction of the ends of those vessels, so that would be one circulatory change that may give a clue.

    But most of the changes are about what the body normally does to repair an injury during life, and some of those changes happen almost instantaneously. Examples are the influx of platelets in the blood and the aggregation of these to form platelet plugs to attempt to seal off the injury (even microscopic injuries). Then this is followed very quickly by cells called macrophages and various other cell types associated with an acute inflammatory response, with these ranging from minutes to hours in the timing of their appearance. Again, this may give a clue as to the timescale between injury and death. In other words - at what stage the normal body responses to injury stopped after the injury.

    Most post-mortem injuries are defined mainly by the LACK of changes that would normally occur pre-mortem. And of course, you can have injuries on top of injuries. So a laceration cause pre-mortem would be likely to show the usual changes, but a superimposed laceration caused post-mortem (eg by a wild ride down a rock-strewn flooded creek) would show none of those changes.

    The list of changes that occur as a normal bodily response to injury is long, with, as I said, the LACK of those changes suggesting post-mortem injury.

    Another factor taken into account is the invasion of the injury by bacteria and other organisms, which again would normally cause a bodily response. And once again, infection of an injury and the response pattern seen can give clues not only to whether the injury and infection are pre- or post-mortem, but also to the length of time between injury/infection and death.

    As you know, I'm not a pathologist, who would know down to the minutest detail the different cell types and when they appear on the scene of an injury. But I do know in these general terms how injuries can be classified without knowing the fine detail.

    "Elementary, my dear Watson"

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  27. #739
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    Poor old wakeskate lol. Oh dear. Anyway thankyou from me also for photographs. I think we all need some new info. Have a nice holiday. Xxxx

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  29. #740
    Quote Originally Posted by DrWatson View Post
    Given that we don't know the facts of what was found, then we CAN'T answer the question. Anything any of us says is pure conjecture.

    As to the pathological changes that occur pre and post mortem, I'm sure you don't really want me to go into a long dissertation on the microscopic changes that occur, from the influx of macrophages into injured tissues (pre-mortem), or the very early signs of intra-tissue haemostasis that can occur (pre-mortem). And of course, the lack of those things that would indicate post-mortem injury. It's not all about circulation although pre-mortem injuries that transect blood vessels (even very small ones called arterioles) can result in retraction of the ends of those vessels, so that would be one circulatory change that may give a clue.

    But most of the changes are about what the body normally does to repair an injury during life, and some of those changes happen almost instantaneously. Examples are the influx of platelets in the blood and the aggregation of these to form platelet plugs to attempt to seal off the injury (even microscopic injuries). Then this is followed very quickly by cells called macrophages and various other cell types associated with an acute inflammatory response, with these ranging from minutes to hours in the timing of their appearance. Again, this may give a clue as to the timescale between injury and death. In other words - at what stage the normal body responses to injury stopped after the injury.

    Most post-mortem injuries are defined mainly by the LACK of changes that would normally occur pre-mortem. And of course, you can have injuries on top of injuries. So a laceration cause pre-mortem would be likely to show the usual changes, but a superimposed laceration caused post-mortem (eg by a wild ride down a rock-strewn flooded creek) would show none of those changes.

    The list of changes that occur as a normal bodily response to injury is long, with, as I said, the LACK of those changes suggesting post-mortem injury.

    Another factor taken into account is the invasion of the injury by bacteria and other organisms, which again would normally cause a bodily response. And once again, infection of an injury and the response pattern seen can give clues not only to whether the injury and infection are pre- or post-mortem, but also to the length of time between injury/infection and death.

    As you know, I'm not a pathologist, who would know down to the minutest detail the different cell types and when they appear on the scene of an injury. But I do know in these general terms how injuries can be classified without knowing the fine detail.
    Thank you, most informative, so in other words, any injuries that occurred post mortem (including lacerations) would miss the pathological identifiers normally associated with wounds or injuries that occurred whilst the vascular system was still functioning?

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  31. #741
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJ60 View Post
    And you can wash your mouth out too!!!

    Your posts are not mindless...... who helped us put the Coles chains theory to bed? We'd still be crapping on about them if it wasn't for you!
    Ha! I was at Coles today picking my groceries up from parcel pick up & was tempted to ask the guys once again about the chains! I did not......

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  33. #742
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    Quote Originally Posted by wakeskate View Post
    Both the cars were parked on bitumen. (unless they were moved)
    This doesn't mean the windows wouldn't have due in them or the bonnets etc.
    One car covered in it and the other not could have alerted them.
    Crimes have been solved from polland in the airfilter and urine which has gone ito the seat and its coverings.
    They often wash the vehicle but the airfilter tells all.
    "We, your family, pledge to you that we will have these questions answered. We will bring you justice, because you deserve nothing less," she said.

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  35. #743
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indromum View Post
    Ha! I was at Coles today picking my groceries up from parcel pick up & was tempted to ask the guys once again about the chains! I did not......
    I have actually visited both Kenmore shopping centres in the last week and casually looked for chains but couldn't spot them.
    I guess subconsciously we are all still looking for evidence whilst we wait. (thus my reason for accidentally ended up out there on my motorbike last week)

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  37. #744
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keentoknow View Post
    Crimes have been solved from polland in the airfilter and urine which has gone ito the seat and its coverings.
    They often wash the vehicle but the airfilter tells all.
    Keen, speaking of urine and blood in the car. If it was on the wheel arch and the back seats were laid forward, is the body likely to be on the rhs of the car,same side as wheel arch? MOO

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  39. #745
    Quote Originally Posted by Indromum View Post
    A few of my posts have been about placing flowers at the kholo creek bridge (I am sure you would have seen them on your travels) so although it is nothing to do with the case as such, it is an important part of this forum to let people know some of us (who live close by) are honoring Allison's final resting place with some sort of tribute.
    Indro Your contributions have been wonderful and appreciated by us all!! Thank you again !

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  41. #746
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indromum View Post
    A few of my posts have been about placing flowers at the kholo creek bridge (I am sure you would have seen them on your travels) so although it is nothing to do with the case as such, it is an important part of this forum to let people know some of us (who live close by) are honoring Allison's final resting place with some sort of tribute.
    Some of us also travel 254KLM round trip from Bribie Island. It is not a thankless task...everyone does their bit to maintain the cross. I know I will continue to do it.
    "We, your family, pledge to you that we will have these questions answered. We will bring you justice, because you deserve nothing less," she said.

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  43. #747
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    if there are traces of lime in the area, maybe the police use it to cover the area after a body has been removed to cover the smell and quickly get rid of any remaining fluids etc?

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  45. #748
    Quote Originally Posted by Keentoknow View Post
    Some of us also travel 254KLM round trip from Bribie Island. It is not a thankless task...everyone does their bit to maintain the cross. I know I will continue to do it.
    Thank you too Keen and others who contribute to that, it is a wonderful gesture and reminds us why we are all still here. So let's keep on sleuthing!!

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  47. #749
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rational View Post
    Thank you, most informative, so in other words, any injuries that occurred post mortem (including lacerations) would miss the pathological identifiers normally associated with wounds or injuries that occurred whilst the vascular system was still functioning?
    Basically, yes. But it's not just the vascular system. A lot of those cells are carried in the tissues between other cells, either in the lymphatic system, or just in the intercellular spaces. Others get TO the site of injury via the vascular system.

    We're all familiar with the television CSI who takes one glance at a body and pronounces injuries as being pre or post-mortem. And while obvious bleeding, and its pattern, extent, etc may certainly give a lot of information on the macro scale, most of the real decisions are made at that microscopic level in the lab after the autopsy.

    "Elementary, my dear Watson"

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  49. #750
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keentoknow View Post
    Some of us also travel 254KLM round trip from Bribie Island. It is not a thankless task...everyone does their bit to maintain the cross. I know I will continue to do it.
    Sorry KTK...I just meant that I wasn't really going out of my way too much. You really have with your sunflower cross. We all can't thank you enough.

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