Yes, Tina's fate is very sad. The whole thing just senseless. And it is a shame that that cabins were demolished
The cabins were in pretty poor shape by then, I think, and the owner got sick of people trespassing from what I hear, so he had 28 and several others pulled down.
There's some pictures and floor plans of the cabin on the Keddie site, though, if you wanted to know what it looked like/what its dimensions were.
Another great development is that Mark McClish, a statement analysis expert, will be looking over Marty and Bo's interviews with the DoJ agents.
Mr. McClish studies speech patterns in order to pinpoint areas of statements where people are not telling the truth, or are hiding something. There's some examples of what he does on his site, from several famous cases. I'm really excited that he has agreed to be involved.
how many of Tina's siblings are still living?
Sheila, Rick and Greg are all still alive. They were 14, 10 and 5 respectively in '81.
Sheila just did this interview about the murders and her family on CBS13, which was very well done, I think:
Pt 2 will be aired soon.
One thing I noticed in this segment was how the reporter says people heard Sheila's scream the next morning. But nobody heard her mother, or sister, or the two older boys or the younger kids make a peep (except one report of some 'muffled screams' about 1.30 am that nobody else heard)?
I ought to add that the cabin next door, where Sheila stayed that night, was only a few feet from cabin 28 - where the boy's bedroom window is you could almost touch both buildings if you stretched your arms between them, they were that close. The neighbours all around weren't far away at all. But only one person heard anything at all.
My thought on that was that the killers must've gained control -very- quickly, of Sue and the kids.
Here's part 2 of the news special:
It ought to be noted that there was a couple errors in the text:
- The therapist didn't change his mind.
- The confession did not ever fall apart. There were two therapists seen by Marty Smartt, one of which never heard the confession, so that's what all went on there.
Please offer your support to Sheila in the comments. She is a brave woman, and deserves it!
Is there anyone alive, do you think that could harm sheila and her siblings for putting the truth out there?
Sheila has been actively seeking justice for her family for six years now - I think that if there was an actual threat it would've surfaced by now.
The documentary maker who has been instrumental in getting the case looked at after decades of obscurity and helped Sheila to find her voice, Josh Hancock, has received some pretty scary threats over the years, both direct and veiled. Some of those were threats of legal action from members of Martin Smartt's family, some were death threats and the like.
He's still alive and well, however.
I have no doubt there's more than a few people who've been seriously rattled by this case not going away. But some of the truth is out there, and more is popping up all the time.
There's a been a veil of fear and silence hanging over this case for 30 years, and this is one of the things that made me consider that there was actually something far deeper lurking behind the murders themselves. Which, turns out, there was.
But that fear has been protecting people who ought to have been held accountable for the murders themselves, as well as the terrible negligence with which the case was handled. As well as those people still alive who know damn well what went on in cabin 28 and why, and have never done the right thing and come forward.
Some folks who were justifiably scared for their own families are now coming forward with what information they can offer. I'm confident the whole truth will come out, sooner or later. We might not have the satisfaction of seeing the killers put in jail, but at least Sheila and her brothers will have the truth, and hopefully whatever justice is left to them.
What do you mean there is something deeper lurking in this case? was it a drug deal gone bad, you think?
(apologies in advance for the length of this post, there's just a LOT to cover)..
I can only say for sure that nobody really knows the truth. But there's a lot of information available now, such as autopsy reports that state none of the victims had any kind of alcohol or drugs in their systems. John and Dana are said to have to smoked pot occasionally, and John drank (Dana might've but he wasn't supposed to, nor could he have drank much if he did - he was a severe diabetic). Sue Sharp used to drink, but at the time of the murders had quit entirely. There's strong indication that Sue was not involved with drugs at all, nor did she socialise with a lot of drug users.
So, therefore I'm inclined to believe that IF drugs were the true motive, then it was because John and Dana had been blamed for stealing some, or had come to know too much about a serious drug trafficking ring in the area (ie, not a couple of college kids selling baggies of pot to the locals, more like heroin and cocaine trade).
That's a big IF, though. The motive in this crime is not only hard to guess at but so covered by layers of BS and obfuscation that just thinking through it all is a total headache.
For example, there's a lot of evidence to suggest that perhaps Boubede was afforded some kind of immunity from proper prosecution of several serious crimes in his past.
And after the murders, Boubede carried on with various fake-advertising scams he'd been pulling for years across several states. He ripped members of the police force off for $125,000 in 1988, while posing as retired police chief 'Michael Desantis'. He was caught red-handed in an elaborate sting operation, was prosecuted under that bogus Desantis name (though the Chicago police fully knew who he was, due to his extensive record and the fact he'd used that name before) and never did any time for it, according to a member of his family.
In another interesting twist, it was noted by police in Keddie, 1981, that his other fake ID used in these scams, "Bobby Lake", was a membership card for The National Police Officers Association of America, for which he claimed to work selling advertising. It was signed by one "Frank Schira".
Boubede claimed the ID was the property of a former employee of the Association's magazine that had been handed to him, and he'd simply forgotten about it.
Mind you, Boubede also told the CADOJ agents after the murders that he was a former policeman who'd been shot in the line of duty, and had been retired for many years, after serving 18 years on the force - in Chicago. Working on the dates he gave, we deduced that Boubede would have been 8 years old when he "joined the force", a simple and obvious bit of arithmetic that might have explained this blatant discrepancy to the two experienced agents who were probably around Boubede's own age...
Now, it turns out that despite newspapers reporting that the Police Officer's Association mag that Boubede used as a front for his scams was a 'fictional' magazine, it really existed. And it was, indeed, run by a man named "Frank Schira".
So, on discovering this, I assumed the real "Bobby Lake" had his ID card stolen. But then I looked a little deeper into Frank Schira and the Association. I found articles like this:
From the Sarasota Journal, 1973
And this report, in which one can see Schira covering his ass with both hands while ratting out his long-time business partner.
So it turns out that this Police Association was a money-making racket run by a bunch of cops. And that Boubede was actually using a police-created scam to scam the police.
We're yet to discover whether the "Bobby Lake" ID bearing Schira's signature ever really existed. Of course, the signature could also be a fake. There is, however, ample reason IMO to suspect that maybe there's a whole lot more going there than meets the eye.
But wait, there's more!
It's curious that Boubede was not in prison when he died of heart failure just ten months after being arrested for this $125,000 scam against police. It's also curious that this was not the only time he skated - in the late 50's/early 60's he was out of jail in record time more than once - for some pretty darned serious crimes.
For example, despite an extensive prior record for robbery and known associations with organised crime, Boubede was a free man just two years after being arrested for an armed bank robbery in which a police officer was shot (by Boubede's uncle and lifelong partner in crime, who got 30 years for the robbery and shooting - but died "of fright" in the courtroom minutes after being sentenced).
It goes on and on -- you can find out more at the Keddie forum site. The upshot is, some (including me) believe it was no coincidence that a DoJ agent experienced in organised crime was called in, did an astoundingly (and way beyond credibly) terrible job at interviewing Boubede and Smartt, let them both waltz out of town and never followed them up properly as major suspects.
As far as I can see, there's a pile of reason right there to suspect that the Keddie investigation was deliberately fudged, due to Boubede's involvement.
Martin Smartt confessed to his therapist that he murdered Sue and Tina because he believed Sue was trying to get Marilyn (his wife at the time) to seek a divorce. Tina was killed, he said, because she was a witness and had seen too much. Smartt does not elaborate on how Tina's body ended up at Camp 18. He stated that he did not kill John or Dana but doesn't say who did kill them, or why.
This confession was reported to PCSO in 1981. And Martin Smartt was never brought back in for questioning. He remained a free man, unhampered by any awkward questions about his blatant lies, his confession and his fingerprints at the crime scene for the rest of his life.
Curiouser and curiouser.
However, all of this only offers possible explanation for a why a confessed murderer was never arrested. It does not discount the possibility that Martin Smartt and Severin John Boubede (both known users of "uppers" and other drugs) were somehow led to believe that John and Dana ripped some drugs off. Boubede certainly had sufficient criminal contacts to have organised a large drug deal. Maybe somebody messed that up, and blamed the boys (who Marty already hated "with a passion", according to his ex-wife).
In fact, Marty's ex-wife was the one person to openly benefit from the whole situation. She got rid of Marty -- who was abusive (he once pulled a gun on her and her kids, for example) and was known to stalk her and threaten her with death whenever she got the gumption to leave him (before taking him back..). Marilyn ended up in a live-in relationship with one of Marty's real good friends shortly after the murders. This would have been difficult, if not impossible, to achieve had Marty not been forced to skedaddle out of town on suspicion of a quad murder.
"Coincidentally" Smartt was heard by a police officer some time after the murders, screaming at this former good friend in jail cell in Quincy (from which both were soon released, presumably both being there for minor things) - "Tell them where the dope is, Meeks!" - among various threats of dire bodily harm.
I've been making posts regarding my thoughts on all that on the other forum, and won't reiterate them here.
But yes, perhaps a 'drug deal gone wrong' was what set the rampage off - though I doubt anyone at cabin 28 had any hand in it. At this point, we just don't know for sure what the motive is and there's several good possibilities, but to me that one seems not at all unlikely.
I spent a few hours over at a couple of Keddie forums the other night and I agree with the posters upthread who indicated they felt like there are posters on those forums who either have first-hand information or seem to know a lot more than they're perhaps posting. It was like falling down the rabbit hole, digging deeper into threads and individual posts and so many claiming to be "in the know," along with assorted relatives and friends. My head is still throbbing today after having waded through all of that.
With regards to the new forum you're referring to, may I ask if "Craig" is still posting? I saw on another link where he was debunked as having been the person to give the boys a ride that night but, that aside, he still posted a couple of things that made the little hairs on the back of my neck stand up. There was also another poster (DoomKitty) whose odd postings gave me the same feeling, as well as a few others who I won't name here in case they Google their screen names and find their way over to this forum. People I don't think I'd want to interact with (scary/creepy).
While Marty and Bo might be gone, I still think there's more to the Keddie murders than meet the eye...And I think those forums are being observed (and perhaps posted in) by people who should have gone to LE a long ago with what they know...or perhaps should themselves have been in prison for the last 30 years.
Last edited by AnaPhylaxis; 11-17-2011 at 11:02 PM.
Marty and Bo are dead-were they the main suspects?
the site linked here. Complaints were made about his general behaviour.
I can tell you now, that guy is a fruitcake who writes "vore" stories (where people get eaten alive, in his case by large snakes) which blatantly sexualise children and feature child abduction, rape, incest and 'teen' sex, though these 'teens' are described in a way that makes them seem a great deal younger than teens. Worse than this, his uses names connected to the Keddie crime for his child characters - one of them clearly references Tina Sharp and her brother, who was 10 at the time, as well as one of their older sister's friends. A younger member of that woman's family recounted on a different forum an incident where Craig slept in the driveway of her house during a teen-girl sleepover party when the parents were out, and flashed his truck lights at the house all night, which scared the girls. Craig claimed in response to have simply camped in the driveway because he couldn't find a motel for the night - and flashed his lights by accident due to sleeping in an uncomfortable position. Uh-huh.
Yeah, this guy is charming.
On top of this, he regularly boasted about the stories (I read several of them, and they were just about as sick as it gets) and posted links to them in the forum chat. When confronted by the fact that they just made him seem like a sick paedophile, he became whiny and then abusive -- he threatened to stalk me on the internet, for example, and feature me and my own child in one of his stories. I am not, sad to say, the only woman on the forums he did this to. One woman I spoke to, he actually wrote a story about her family.
I am REALLY glad to say that Craig, along with a few other freaks and time wasters, are no longer welcome on the KeddieMurdersFilm site linked above.
Thus, it's way less of a rabbit hole these days, as far as that goes. The crime itself is slowly unfolding, imo, and a pile of new information released by the police has helped tremendously in the quest to piece together the events surrounding the murders.
The forum is a calm, productive place these days where people are focussed on researching and thinking through the crime, and can even disagree on opinions in a very civil and polite manner.
I do hope you choose to stay around, and see for yourself. There's still old posts by Craig and his ilk in the older threads, but none of them have posted in a long time. For the record, I think there is, as you say, far more than meets the eye where this crime is concerned. But the community at Josh's forum will no longer tolerate people like Craig, no matter what claims they spout.
scriptgirl, thanks for helping to keep this thread active! Marty and Bo (Martin Smartt and Severin John "Bo" Boubede) were the main suspects. There were a few other suspects as well, which I personally have not ruled out as having a hand in these murders, but Marty's confession and his collusion with Boubede as to an alibi makes them POI #1 and #2.
Ausgirl, thank you! I don't know if I stated how I first became interested in this case, but a few years ago, I worked for a show that was about haunted places. I found an article about the murders and immediately became intrigued. As part of my job, I was to research haunted places and try and package them to the producers to see if it was filmable. As there was no concrete proof of haunting, it was a no go, but the story never left me.
What a fascinating job, scriptgirl! I've worked in a related field, regarding haunted places. There's plenty of interesting (and very definitely haunted) places in Australia.
I read posts on a blog from an occupant who lived in cabin 28 after the murders, in which they say their family had a lovely time in Keddie and nothing odd ever happened, while another claims her kids had night terrors and there was a 'creepy' feeling in some areas of the house. I am sorry the cabin was torn down, in a way, as it hampers research into the houses' dimensions etc., but also feel it's probably a good thing.
The Sharp family and Dana Wingate are not forgotten, in any case.
This case really is one of the more fascinating cases . I can not imagine being the one to open the cabin door and see all of that and know you could have been there for me i don't know if i would ever sleep propper again in my life I don't think i could even handle something like that what an amazing woman she is to keep her life together after something like that . My only thought about motive is a sexuall one they or he or she whoever did this took the oldest girl for that reason .It made no sence when the guy in black said he asked marty why did he kill the girl and he said because she saw everything that doesn't mean you have to kidnap her the perp/perps could have done to her right there and then what they had done to the rest of the familly if it was just to keep her quiet because she witnessed it so i think they or he took her for a sexuall reason ...
Everything I Write Is JMHO ..
The issue of why Tina (who was the younger girl, 12 years old) was removed to Feather Falls, and whether she was alive or dead at the time, is one of the more maddening aspects of the crime. There's so little evidence available..
I agree, there's something 'not right' with Martin Smartt's confession - I haven't enough information to put my finger on what that is for sure but I have the feeling the confession was only made to open a path to a plea of insanity, just in case he ever -was- arrested for the crime. The therapist he confessed to was well aware of the various real mental issues Smartt had, as well as those he was concocting in order to get military benefits for PTSD (he was a cook in Vietnam..).
There are those who firmly believe the murders were premeditated - I'm one of them - and I think the confession also would have helped Marty avoid murder 1, as it was made to seem a rash and impulsive act rather than something premeditated.
The way the crime scene was staged - and it WAS staged, there's hard evidence for this - after the occupants were dead made it seem that a lot more violence went on there than I believe actually happened.
What's odd is the police supported this fallacy by reporting that the house was trashed, there was blood all over the walls and stab marks on everything.. which just isn't true. Looking at the crime scene pictures, it's plain that only a few things were displaced - the TV was knocked askew. There's a cushion off the couch (the one under Dana's head). There's a maximum of seven knife marks in total on the walls, not dozens.
Sue's 'defensive wounds' include a series of shallow, parallel cuts across the back of one hand. They all line up very neatly, which I have trouble seeing in the case of a woman fending off a knife attack.
There's no doubt now that John and Dana's bodies were moved into position. Dana showed livor mortis on both sides of his body, for a start, so he was moved perhaps several hours after death. John's clothing is skewed in such a way as to suggest he was picked up and swivelled into position. The boys were tied together by the feet with a clean, white cord - how'd that not get bloody in a struggle, while the murders occurred? The knots also suggest strongly that the boys were tied while lying in position.
As to Sue, we don't know for sure yet whether she was moved, or bound post-mortem but I suspect she was. Another oddity of police reportage - Sheriff Doug Thomas says she was found lying on the sofa, as does at least one other report. Yet she was found on the floor beside the sofa. I can't understand how anyone could make that mistake, even with the shock of such a brutal crime. Sue is very clearly shown to be on the --floor-- with the other victims in the CS pictures. Her daughter has confirmed that this is what she saw when she opened the door that morning.
Sue was posed in a way that suggested a sexual motive - her clothing pulled up, underwear used as a gag - but she had not been raped.
It's all so screwy. :s
My question, ever since it became apparent that the CS was staged, has been: WHY? Why move the bodies at all? Why make Sue look like the target of a sexual crime (I currently don't believe it was one).
Considering that the killers did stage the scene, I think it pays to look at what they were pointing away from, as well as what they were pointing toward.
And yet no one heard anything...
I am glad, however, that it wasn't just paranoia on my part about that "Craig" person. While he may have known two of the victims, etc., there was still something inherently "skeevy" about his entire persona that always made me feel like I needed a shower after reading his posts. I'm glad he's been banned and I hope somehow he gets the help he obviously needs.
what is that area like now-is it a dangerous place or is it mellow? Do a lot of the suspect's family members still live there?
Constantly alluding to 'more of the story' and cryptic comments that would make sense only if we possesed his insider knowledge as a 'player' back then."Please drag it out of me! " Pathetic.
Kline, I agree. But he's gone now, thank goodness, and the board is managed well. People are focussing on what ought to be focussed on - the crime, and its victims.
scriptgirl, none of the Sharp family still live there, but a lot of the people who were in Keddie and Quincy in '81 do. From everything I've heard, it never was a particularly dangerous area to live, compared to other parts of the state at the time. There'd been very few crimes all in all and nothing like cabin 28 (though the Kathy Howard and Lynnette Mollath murders are closely related, the were a decade apart and Lynette was in another county from what I can tell). People didn't even lock their doors in Keddie. These murders changed everything, made people afraid. It all but destroyed the resort as a community.
Ana, I can understand that uneasy feeling. I'm 10,000 miles away and sometimes I feel like looking over my shoulder - I've had some really creepy 'warnings' about keeping my mouth shut. But you know? To hell with that. It only makes me digs harder, to see why they'd bother after all these years. I think a lot of folks there feel the same way. When it comes down to it, it's all hot air anyhow, a pile of bluster from folks who are ashamed of themselves, and really, ought to be.
I am new to this case and fascinated by it. Anyone know if there is somewhere on the net I can watch the documentaries free?
Justice for Travis
Sometimes the first step towards forgiveness is understanding that the other person is a complete idiot.
There's free outtakes from the documentaries on youtube, you can find them most easily by searching 'keddie' there.
The documentaries aren't available free. They're not expensive though, and delivery is pretty prompt now the backlog's been cleared a bit.
Just to update: there's some more documents being released, and a few advances made as far figuring things out goes, LOTS of new questions. Sadly, not as many answers.
There's been several calls for a push to have this case declared solved. A confession of guilt by one of the main suspects as well as a fingerprint on a bloody glass at the scene, the fact that his accomplice lied himself silly to the DoJ, and a pile of incidental evidence seems more than enough to at least get that much from PCSO.
Sheriff Hagwood has publicly promised this case his attention, and every effort to see it solved at last. Will he live up to that promise? Or follow in the footsteps of the last six sheriffs and promise a lot but actually do very little?
Somebody, a State's Attorney, somebody with enough clout, ought to investigate PCSO and CADOJ's investigation of this crime. To call it a travesty is being mild.
Aus, thanks for the info!!
As I said, I'm new to the case so I don't know all that much. You mention that there is a push to call the case solved. Do you believe that's the right thing to do? Wasn't it Marty who confessed and left a fingerprint? Do you think he's the one who did it?
Justice for Travis
Sometimes the first step towards forgiveness is understanding that the other person is a complete idiot.
Yep, Martin Smartt confessed to his therapist that he killed Sue and Tina Sharp, claiming his reason was that Sue was interfering his marriage, presumably talking to Marilyn Smartt about divorce. He was a violent and possessive abuser, and Marilyn often sought help over his abuse and ran from Marty several times but then he'd hunt her down, and she kept taking him back. He never mentions who killed Johnny Sharp or Dana Wingate.
So that would seem a pretty straightforward motive - I have no doubt he murdered Sue & Tina, but there's something very off about the reason he gave. A lot of other women helped Marilyn out in far more active ways (giving her a place to stay, etc) and none of them were murdered (as far as we know).
Marty's whole reason for confessing is dubious, imo. He was, from what I can tell with his violent nature and history of criminal behaviour, not the type to suffer a fit of remorse. I think he was setting himself up for an insanity defense in case he was busted - the therapist he was seeing was helping him with a (failed) claim to get military for PTSD he didn't have (Marty was a cook in the army, and never saw battle). And while getting busted was highly unlikely given the massive botch job the investigation ended up being, maybe he had reason to be worried at the time.
ETA: re pushing for the case to be declared solved:
It's a hard call. But I think it is the right thing to do. As things stand, no-one can get access to FBI files, etc, because the case is still open (despite the confession). Both main suspects are dead now, and as far as we can tell there's been no new leads in the case for three decades. And precious little effort to maintain files and evidence intact, let alone solve the case, from PCSO. If it was said to be solved, we could get access to files through FOIA that very well could bring new leads, so I think it would be worth it. And of course, perhaps it might give the Sharp and Wingate families a small (and very overdue) sense of closure.
Last edited by Ausgirl; 01-12-2012 at 04:34 PM.